HL Deb 08 February 1847 vol 89 cc937-40
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELL

moved, pursuant to notice, for— A Return of the Total Amount of the Sums appearing to be due for Debt, Damages, and Costs upon all Decrees, Orders, and Judgments in Ireland, re-docketed pursuant to the Act 9th George IV., c. 35, or registered pursuant to the 7th and 8th Victoria, c. 90, and now appearing to be re-docketed or registered in the Office for registering Judgments in Ireland; distinguishing those which are in Debt from those which are in Case. The noble Earl stated, that he wished to ascertain as far as possible, to what extent the land of Ireland was at present liable. He believed, from information that he had received, that this return would be perfectly practicable. On the subject of his Motion, he would call the attention of their Lordships to what the Act 9th George IV., chap. 35, stated, as to the entry of judgments which affected land in Ireland; and he would particularly refer to the fifth section, as to the duties which were to be observed in the Registry Office; and as all he required was to refer to the number of the judgments, taking out the amount of each, and telling up the whole, he did not look upon that as a very difficult or tedious matter. He did not want to inquire into the private affairs of any individual; all he sought for was the total amount of charges which affected the whole of the land of Ireland, from which return, if furnished, he would be enabled to prove that that country was already so heavily taxed, and so pressed with such a weight of incumbrances, as to be scarcely capable of bearing much more. The whole of the annual rental of Ireland was little more than 13,000,000l., about 10,450,000l. of which was paid in interest on money lent, so that there could not be more than about 3,000,000l. at the disposal of the landlords. Therefore, if new taxes, to the amount of 13,000,000l. or 14,000,000l., were imposed, consistently with existing engagements, it would be out of their power to meet such a charge. The effect would be to crush the landlords, to injure the country, and very probably to reduce the whole population to such a state as might make it very difficult in times to come to govern Ireland. He would not then enter into the state of the poverty of Ireland, as another opportunity would offer; yet he could not but observe that that poverty was too apparent when he compared the amount of money deposited in the savings banks of England and Wales with the amount deposited in those of Ireland. The present state of trade and commerce were also but too evident signs of its depressed condition; and with a debt of 100,000,000l., it was but too obvious that the landed proprietors were not in a position to meet those enormous sums about to be imposed on that country.

The LORD CHANCELLOR

said, the noble Lord was no doubt most anxious to obtain the required information for an important object—it might be desirable to have a return of the amount of incumbrances on the estates of Ireland if it were at all attainable; but, like many other objects equally desirable, the application of the noble Lord laboured under this disadvantage, that it was wholly unattainable. The design of the office in question being to protect purchasers of lands, the judgments or charges on lands were there registered; but, when satisfaction was made, the entries might or might not be entered. The office would show the amount of judgments existing at any specified time; but it might afford no information as to what were the existing charges. He was quite sure that if accurate and satisfactory information could be obtained, it would supply to their Lordships those materials which would be most important; but although he knew that that information could not be had, yet he addressed a letter to the Registration Office in Dublin, in answer to which communication it was stated— That although several sums due for debts, damages, and costs upon decrees, orders, and judgments in Ireland, which were originally obtained under the 9th Geo. IV., chap. 35, and subsequently re-registered, pursuant to the 7th and 8th Vic., chap 90, appeared in the books of the office as originally marked therein; yet he (the writer) had no means to ascertain whether any or what portion of those sums were paid or not—nor had he materials to distinguish those judgments which were in debt, from those which were in case. He begged further to state, that a return so imperfect could not be made out without considerable interruption to the current business of the office, and that it would be attended with considerable expense and great delay. Such was the reply; and in his (the Lord Chancellor's) opinion, a return which would necessarily be so imperfect, and information which would be so erroneous, would be worse than no information at all. As great expense, considerable delay, and an interruption to the public business in the office at Dublin would be the only result, and as the noble Earl must be satisfied that the returns could not be satisfactorily obtained, he hoped the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion.

The EARL of MOUNTCASHELL

asked, how was it that lawyers, by searching the courts, ascertained the state of the property which was the subject of their inquiry? By what means did they ascertain so accurately whether charges were outstanding or not? If property was about to be sold, the intending purchaser took good care to know all that concerned it; and until that was done a clear title could not be made out by the seller. While he was anxious to get the required information for the reasons already stated, yet he was willing to yield to whatever their Lordships would suggest.

LORD MONTEAGLE

would give one fact in confirmation of what had been stated by the Lord Chancellor. He was the trustee of a large estate in Ireland, and he knew the charges by which it was affected; yet he called for a return from the Registration Office as to its liabilities—and what was the result? The return so furnished exceeded in amount double the real existing charges, and which was owing to the carelessness and negligence of the officers not entering debts long since paid. That circumstance, which was within his own knowledge, proved how useless would be the present application. He hoped, therefore, the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

House adjourned.