Lords Sitting of 8 February 1847

MINUTES.
Sat first.—The Earl Waldegrave, after the Death of his Nephew.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Chelsea Pensions.
Reported.—Buck Wheat, &c. Importation.

LOANS TO IRELAND.
EARL FITZWILLIAMwished to move—
"For an Account (since the Union) of all Sums of Money advanced on Loan by the Imperial Treasury, for Public Works or other Purposes in Ireland, specifying in the Case of each Loan the Purpose for which, the Parties to whom, the Conditions on which each such Loan has been advanced, and how far such Conditions have been as yet complied with; distinguishing all Advances and Repayment made, since the Establishment of the Board of Works."
There seemed to be a general impression out of doors, and in the organs of public opinion, that when money was lent to Ireland it was never paid back again. Now he was desirous of showing that no loans had been more punctually repaid than those made to Ireland.
LORD BROUGHAMthought that the return moved for would form a very valuable document. As to the punctual repayment talked of, he had his own opinions on that point. However, if there were any delusion abroad, the sooner it was dispelled the better. He held in his hand another return from those unhappy people, the inhabitants of Liverpool. ["Hear, hear!" and a laugh.] Really, it was no laughing matter for them, nor one for which he was aware of a remedy, for in the course of three days, upwards of 5,400 additional Irish paupers had been flung upon them. Nothing, however, could exceed the liberality, the generosity of the people of Liverpool under these trying circumstances. They neither scrupled to contribute their time nor their money. He wished to explain that he had never used any invective against the authorities of Liverpool in reference to this subject. He had been misinformed as to the precise day of the opening of soup-kitchens; but he had never meant to undervalue the generosity and energy of Liverpool in making provision for the poor flung upon it. While upon the matter of mis-statement, he had to complain of a misrepresentation, in a very respectable morning print, of his sentiments as to education. He was there held up as a person entertaining on this important subject very heterodox and very loose views indeed. Now, he thought that in stating what he had stated upon the subject, he had been uttering very orthodox

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views. He had expressly said that he would rather see a Bill providing for the education of the people in the tenets of the Church of England, than no Bill at all; but he was described as a person to whom it was indifferent whether the people were brought up in the religion of Christ, or in the religion of the Mother of Christ, meaning thereby the Roman Catholic faith; and this after he had expressed the greatest dislike to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church—although, of course, he highly respected many of its members. Not only indeed were his sentiments thus misrepresented as to the Catholic church, but he was stated to be quite indifferent as to whether the people were educated in the religion of Mahomet or of Vishnu. Now, really, no person had more entire belief than he was imbued with in the superiority of the Christian religion over all others, and of the Protestant over all other sects of the Christian faith, and no person was more convinced of the necessity of the inculcation of that faith than he was.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNErose to say a few words with reference to the pressure and distress at Liverpool, which had been alluded to by his noble and learned Friend, and which he admitted to be of a very extensive and serious nature. His noble and learned Friend had said that the evil was one for which he could see no remedy. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) trusted that the remedy would arise from the speedy adoption by that and the other House of Parliament of measures calculated to create a great additional stimulus to employment in Ireland. Care, of course, would be taken that the funds to be so expended would be secured in that manner which, as his noble Friend near him (Earl Fitzwilliam) had observed, had been found efficient in causing their punctual repayment. He willingly bore his testimony to the generosity and activity in affording relief of the people of Liverpool, and he again expressed his confident hope that the measures in progress would be found as efficacious as their authors anticipated.
LORD BROUGHAMwas not so sanguine upon that point. He feared that the large proportion of the people of Ireland who were taught to think that they had only to come over to Liverpool to live without working, would prefer a scanty subsistence there without labour, to a more plentiful one at home, where they would be obliged to work for it. He thought that some measure in the nature of a poor law would be
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of service in times of temporary distress, by preventing the calamity from having such a grievous effect as that of sending myriads of paupers from Ireland to prey on the industrious people of Liverpool.
LORD MONTEAGLEfeared that distress in Ireland must always—unless indeed they were to resort to some such measure as stopping the freedom of intercourse between the two countries—be a matter in which the people of England would be as much interested as those of Ireland. So long as there existed a disproportion between the rate of wages of the two countries, there would always be a popular tendency to emigrate from the country in which wages were lowest, to that in which they were highest. The question to consider was, how to prevent this; and the only legitimate and effectual means appeared to him to be those of improving the condition of the people in the country from which they were driven, so as to render it as nearly as possible equal to the popular condition in the country to which they were driven. All that tended to improve the state of the working classess in Ireland, would also tend to keep them in their own country, and prevent them from overflowing and breeding pauperism in England. At the same time they must distinguish between permanent and occasional emigration from Ireland. The occasional emigration of the harvesters to this country was of the greatest possible service to British industry; but the permanent settler living on a lower description of food, and being in a lower state of civilization than those about him, had an undoubted effect in depreciating the condition of the population of which he formed a member. No remedy would relieve the people of this country that did not raise the condition of the people of Ireland. He begged to suggest to their Lordships that in the course of legislation on which they were entering, nothing ought to be considered as inconsistent in the interests of England and Ireland. They were bound up together; what would improve the one would relieve the other. He would, before he sat down, beg to say a few words on the condition of the people of Ireland as respected the employment of the poor on public works. They were about to adopt a great change in the system of public works to be pursued; upwards of 500,000 men were employed under the present method. They were about to adopt another system. The change, however, would cause an interval,

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for which some provision must be made before the transition could be safely effected. Now in the county with which he was connected, a proposition had been made, to the effect that Government should entertain favourably the execution of some of those great railway projects recommended in Mr. Drummond's report. That was a report drawn up by men who had nothing to do with shares or companies. But the question was not now merely one of bolstering up speculative companies—although he did not mean to say that such a course might not sometimes be wisely adopted—the question was whether or not great public works which could not be otherwise executed should be carried on by assistance from Government, in the hope and expectation that these works would remove the enormous difficulties which stood in the way of disbanding an army—for an army in everything but discipline they were—of 500,000 men, after the cessation of one species of employment, and previously to the commencement of another. He rejoiced that the subject had been introduced into the other House of Parliament, The principle upon which the proposed measure was founded, was one most worthy of the deepest consideration. He had heard with satisfaction, that within a very short period the Government had sanctioned a considerable loan to a very important work of the nature in question; he meant the railway from Waterford to Limerick, to which 20,000 l. had been advanced by the Treasury. He did not mean that Government ought to come forward and help all railway schemes. He did not believe that the noble Lord in the other House meant that it should; but he did hold that in no way could the emergency be better met than by the Government coming, and, with a just and wise discrimination betwixt useful and useless schemes, providing for the interval which must elapse between the cessation of one sort of work and the commencement of another; an interval which could not be better met than by favourably considering the claims of companies formed for the advancement of railway enterprise.
LORD BROUGHAMexplained. He had complained only of the Irish who came to this country not to work but to beg. They could not do without the Irish harvesters who every year came over. They were a quiet, well-conducted body of men; and in the district with which he was connected, they had never committed an out-
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rage, or even robbed a hen-roost. They were a most well-conducted, well-disposed set of people.
LORD MONTEAGLEexplained that the paupers who had deluged Liverpool had not come from his part of the country. He had great pleasure in informing their Lordships, on the authority of bankers in New York, that upwards of 160,000 l. had within a short period been remitted from America by old Irish emigrants to their friends at home, for the purposes of emigration and relief.
EARL FITZWILLIAMalso bore his testimony to the character of the Irish harvesters, many of whom, coming principally from Mayo and Roscommon, he had been year after year in the habit of employing. He would take this opportunity of impressing on their Lordships that the present was not a mere Irish calamity. Anything that fell on so great a limb of the empire as Liverpool, must be considered as something which affected the universal interest of the country. Parliament, in dealing with Ireland, must be actuated by British and not English feelings. He saw it stated in those organs of public opinion which they every morning received, that he noble Lord in the other House, who had introduced a great Irish scheme, wished merely to fill the bellies of the starving people of Ireland. If his noble Friend had proposed it simply with that view, it would be found utterly inadequate for the purpose. But he conceived that the noble Lord took larger and more comprehensive views, and that his scheme was brought forward merely in the belief that it would contribute to the abatement of the evils which afflicted Ireland in redundancy of population, and want of equilibrium between the demand for and the supply of labour. The empire was now in a great crisis, but great crises furnished great opportunities. Let not this one be thrown away. Let not England be niggardly. He had just heard that 20,000 l. had been advanced by Government to prosecute the works on a railway in the south of Ireland. He rejoiced to hear that the principle was being acted upon; but as an Englishman he blushed at the smallness of the amount. It would not do for English individuals to be generous—the English community must be generous. The greatest generosity would, in fact, be the best wisdom. If England did not raise Ireland, Ireland would sink England, He repeated that we were now in a great crisis, and he again

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warned their Lordships to beware of neglecting the opportunity which it gave them.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHobserved, with reference to what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord respecting the influx of paupers into Liverpool, that as the law at present stood, Irish paupers coming into England might be sent back again to Ireland at the expense of the parish removing them. Now it was quite clear, that if matters went on as they were going, Parliament must either do something to prevent paupers coming from Ireland to England, or grant money to Liverpool to enable them to hear the expense of sending the Irish paupers back again. Irish paupers might be prevented from coming over to Liverpool, and that would be no deprivation of their personal liberty. He threw this point out for the consideration of the noble and learned Lord. They ought to look forward to the manner in which the people of Ireland were to subsist six months after the present crisis was past; and as there was at present a willingness on the part of the landlords to meet the Government half way in assisting the people to emigrate, he hoped that the subject of emigration would be reconsidered by the Government. If they did not do so, they would assuredly have cause to regret it.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that he should have no objection to the Motion, if his noble Friend would so far amend it as to add the words "distinguishing all advances and repayments made since the establishment of the Board of Works."
Motion, as amended, agreed to.

CHARGES ON LAND IN IRELAND.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLmoved, pursuant to notice, for—
"A Return of the Total Amount of the Sums appearing to be due for Debt, Damages, and Costs upon all Decrees, Orders, and Judgments in Ireland, re-docketed pursuant to the Act 9th George IV., c. 35, or registered pursuant to the 7th and 8th Victoria, c. 90, and now appearing to be re-docketed or registered in the Office for registering Judgments in Ireland; distinguishing those which are in Debt from those which are in Case."
The noble Earl stated, that he wished to ascertain as far as possible, to what extent the land of Ireland was at present liable. He believed, from information that he had received, that this return would be perfectly practicable. On the subject of his Motion, he would call the attention of their
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Lordships to what the Act 9th George IV., chap. 35, stated, as to the entry of judgments which affected land in Ireland; and he would particularly refer to the fifth section, as to the duties which were to be observed in the Registry Office; and as all he required was to refer to the number of the judgments, taking out the amount of each, and telling up the whole, he did not look upon that as a very difficult or tedious matter. He did not want to inquire into the private affairs of any individual; all he sought for was the total amount of charges which affected the whole of the land of Ireland, from which return, if furnished, he would be enabled to prove that that country was already so heavily taxed, and so pressed with such a weight of incumbrances, as to be scarcely capable of bearing much more. The whole of the annual rental of Ireland was little more than 13,000,000 l., about 10,450,000 l. of which was paid in interest on money lent, so that there could not be more than about 3,000,000 l. at the disposal of the landlords. Therefore, if new taxes, to the amount of 13,000,000 l. or 14,000,000 l., were imposed, consistently with existing engagements, it would be out of their power to meet such a charge. The effect would be to crush the landlords, to injure the country, and very probably to reduce the whole population to such a state as might make it very difficult in times to come to govern Ireland. He would not then enter into the state of the poverty of Ireland, as another opportunity would offer; yet he could not but observe that that poverty was too apparent when he compared the amount of money deposited in the savings banks of England and Wales with the amount deposited in those of Ireland. The present state of trade and commerce were also but too evident signs of its depressed condition; and with a debt of 100,000,000 l., it was but too obvious that the landed proprietors were not in a position to meet those enormous sums about to be imposed on that country.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the noble Lord was no doubt most anxious to obtain the required information for an important object—it might be desirable to have a return of the amount of incumbrances on the estates of Ireland if it were at all attainable; but, like many other objects equally desirable, the application of the noble Lord laboured under this disadvantage, that it was wholly unattainable. The design of the office in question being

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to protect purchasers of lands, the judgments or charges on lands were there registered; but, when satisfaction was made, the entries might or might not be entered. The office would show the amount of judgments existing at any specified time; but it might afford no information as to what were the existing charges. He was quite sure that if accurate and satisfactory information could be obtained, it would supply to their Lordships those materials which would be most important; but although he knew that that information could not be had, yet he addressed a letter to the Registration Office in Dublin, in answer to which communication it was stated—
"That although several sums due for debts, damages, and costs upon decrees, orders, and judgments in Ireland, which were originally obtained under the 9th Geo. IV., chap. 35, and subsequently re-registered, pursuant to the 7th and 8th Vic., chap 90, appeared in the books of the office as originally marked therein; yet he (the writer) had no means to ascertain whether any or what portion of those sums were paid or not—nor had he materials to distinguish those judgments which were in debt, from those which were in case. He begged further to state, that a return so imperfect could not be made out without considerable interruption to the current business of the office, and that it would be attended with considerable expense and great delay."
Such was the reply; and in his (the Lord Chancellor's) opinion, a return which would necessarily be so imperfect, and information which would be so erroneous, would be worse than no information at all. As great expense, considerable delay, and an interruption to the public business in the office at Dublin would be the only result, and as the noble Earl must be satisfied that the returns could not be satisfactorily obtained, he hoped the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLasked, how was it that lawyers, by searching the courts, ascertained the state of the property which was the subject of their inquiry? By what means did they ascertain so accurately whether charges were outstanding or not? If property was about to be sold, the intending purchaser took good care to know all that concerned it; and until that was done a clear title could not be made out by the seller. While he was anxious to get the required information for the reasons already stated, yet he was willing to yield to whatever their Lordships would suggest.
LORD MONTEAGLEwould give one fact in confirmation of what had been
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stated by the Lord Chancellor. He was the trustee of a large estate in Ireland, and he knew the charges by which it was affected; yet he called for a return from the Registration Office as to its liabilities—and what was the result? The return so furnished exceeded in amount double the real existing charges, and which was owing to the carelessness and negligence of the officers not entering debts long since paid. That circumstance, which was within his own knowledge, proved how useless would be the present application. He hoped, therefore, the noble Earl would withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.
House adjourned.