LORD BROUGHAMmoved—
For a Return of the Premium on Exchequer Bills on each Day from the 1st of February to the 5th of February, 1847. Also an Account of 849 the Dividends actually paid upon all Railway Stock in England, Scotland, and Ireland, for the two Years ending the 1st of February, 1847. Also an Account of the Names of all Persons holding Stock in Irish Railways on the 1st of February, 1847.The noble and learned Lord observed, that as a return of this kind had been granted with reference to railways in this country, he presumed there could be no objection to place the proprietors of Irish railway stock on the same footing with shareholders in similar undertakings in England. He saw that a measure had been introduced into the other House of Parliament for the promotion of railways in Ireland; and that measure was advocated on the ground that it would enable Irish railway shareholders to turn their shares into money, which might be applied in advancing the general welfare of that country. But those who supported this measure seemed to forget that for every 100l. of capital withdrawn from railway shares, another 100l. would be invested in those speculations; so that he did not think the result they anticipated would be produced. At any rate, let it be known for whose benefit Parliament was about to legislate. He was sorry at all times to complain of misrepresentation; indeed he was seldom called upon to do so; but these were times when the opinions of a public man ought to be properly understood. Since he had last addressed their Lordships, he had received numerous letters charging him with a desire to make bread dear for the people, and accusing him of taking part with the farmers to keep up the price of bread. And the poor farmers were to be charged with this! They were charged with keeping up the price of bread by withholding supplies from the market. He could only say that a more unjust and ridiculous accusation he never heard against any class of the community. It was important, especially at this time, that the opinions of men on such a subject should not be misrepresented; and he might therefore explain that what he had said was this, that if there was no scarcity, corn would very soon come to the market, and so be cheap; and that, if there was a scarcity, the best thing that could possibly happen would be that corn should be dear. The Puke of Norfolk, or the Duke of Rutland, to whom it signified little what the price of corn was, could, in a period of dearth, reduce the consumption of their families by a certain amount: the community at large, however, could not enter into a bond to 850 effect such a reduction; but a high price would operate upon them, and would prevent a scarcity from being changed into a dearth, and a dearth from becoming a famine.
LORD STANLEYentirely concurred in the observation of his noble and learned Friend, that this was a time, of all others, when public men ought not to be subjected to misrepresentation with regard to their motives, and particularly when their motives and actions had reference to the relief of public distress, in whatever part of the empire that distress might exist. It was his entire concurrence in that observation which led him to notice a remark that fell from the noble and learned Lord, conveying, unintentionally of course, an entire misrepresentation of the motives and intent of the measure which had been introduced by a noble Friend of his (Lord Stanley's) into the other House of Parliament. His noble and learned Friend had stated that the object of his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck) was to introduce a measure, the effect of which would be to raise the price of Irish railway shares, and enable railway proprietors to make large profits.
LORD BROUGHAMNo; the effect, no doubt, would be to raise the prices; but the intention was, to enable shareholders to sell out, and to improve their estates.
LORD STANLEYThe noble and learned Lord intimated, at all events, that the object of the measure introduced by his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck) last night, in the other House of Parliament, was to advantage railway proprietors in Ireland, by enabling them to sell the shares they possessed. Now, he was certain that his noble and learned Friend could not have heard the able, the eloquent, the statesman-like statement delivered by his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck) last night when introducing the Bill. He was convinced that his noble and learned Friend could not have read that statement; for, if he had done so, the monomania of opposition to railways, which in many cases biassed the judgment of his noble and learned Friend, could not have caused him to misunderstand the object of a measure which, whatever its intrinsic merits, was undoubtedly introduced with a feeling which commanded the attention and sympathy of all parties in Parliament, and which, he believed, also commanded the admiration and approval of a great portion of the community of this country. The time might 851 come when that measure might have to be argued in their Lordships' House, unless some extraordinary exercise of the prerogative of the Crown should be made to stop its progress; but he must assure his noble and learned Friend, that its object and intent were not to raise the price of railway shares, or to facilitate their disposal by those who now held them in Ireland. The object of the measure was to interpose the credit of Great Britain—without the loss of one single shilling, or the imposition of one single shilling of taxation upon the people of this country—to stimulate and facilitate employment in a country more than all others, and especially at this time, in want of employment; to carry out works of great public utility, and which, without the intervention, not only of the aid, but of the credit of the State, must be abandoned; to facilitate communication in Ireland, which, next to the employment of labour, was most necessary to the well-being of the country; to improve the condition of the agricultural labourer in that country; and to furnish the means of constant employment to a large portion of the population for the next four years at least, without withdrawing them from agricultural employment by tendering too easy or too well-paid work; and to facilitate the application of capital—for the expenditure of private capital was now checked by the political position of the country. The intention of the measure was to render assistance to Ireland under securities and guarantees which would insure that the people of this country would not, by the advances which they would be called upon to make, be liable to one single shilling of ultimate expenditure, or to any immediate addition to their burdens, for the purpose of effecting what was proposed to be done by the interposition of the State. He had little thought to have said a word upon the subject at the present time; but with the respect and regard which he felt for his noble Friend in another place (Lord George Bentinck), and for the opinion and weight of authority of his noble and learned Friend in that House (Lord Brougham), he could not permit the statement which had been made to go forth upon the high authority of his noble and learned Friend, namely, that the scheme propounded by his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck) had for its object private benefit, when his (Lord Stanley's) firm conviction, belief, and certainty was, that it had for its object, and would produce as its effect, 852 great national improvement and great public advantage, and that without entailing public loss or inconvenience upon any portion of the subjects of this empire.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, his noble Friend who had just addressed their Lordships had misunderstood the observation he had made. He (Lord Brougham) had never said that the measure introduced in another place was for the purpose of benefiting individuals. He expressly avoided making any such statement. What he had said was, that the measure of the noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) had been supported on the ground that it would facilitate the application of capital to improvements in Ireland by enabling the holders of railway shares to dispose of them; and upon that fact he (Lord Brougham) remarked, that the persons who thus argued seemed to have forgotten that for every 100l. of capital sold out of railway stock, another 100l. must be invested, and that, consequently, the noble Lord's measure could not possibly have the effect it was intended to produce, namely, that of setting free any amount of capital to the general improvement of Ireland. His noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had observed that he (Lord Brougham) had not been present in the other House, for which he entertained as much respect as any one could do, when the noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) brought forward the measure to which reference had been made. He (Lord Brougham) had certainly not heard the statement of the noble Lord, for he had not been in the other House since the 20th of November, 1830; and he had not read the statement, because he did not often read the debates. But he had seen a person who did hear the noble Lord's speech, and who told him that the friends of the measure—though he did not particularly mention the noble Lord—advocated it on the ground that it would enable the holders of railway shares to sell them, and would so give them an opportunity of investing their capital in labour fer the improvement of the land. His (Lord Brougham's) reply was, that a more Irish view of the subject he had never heard of; and he remarked, as he had already observed to their Lordships, that for every 100l. of stock sold out, another 100l. would be bought in. His object in moving for these returns was to put the sister kingdom on the same footing with this country; and, above all, to enable those Gentlemen in the other House, and 853 those noble Lords who, in the multiplicity of their engagements, might forget that they held shares in Irish railways, to see their names alphabetically displayed, and so be reminded of their position. No one could expect that any noble Lord, or any hon. Member of the other House, would vote for a Bill that was to raise the value of his own shares. That was quite impossible. His noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had said that he had a monomania with regard to railways. What he (Lord Brougham) wanted was, that railways, like other similar undertakings, should be carried on by people from their own funds, and not with the aid of the public funds. He had no phobia whatever against railways: he risked his limbs on them every day; but if they were to be made, he wanted them to be made with the money of the shareholders, not that of the public. He had much less interest in the matter than his noble Friend (Lord Stanley), who had in all probability much longer to live than himself; but he could assure that noble Lord that he had no objection to railways or railway works in Ireland, and he hoped every facility would be afforded for their prosecution.
§ The DUKE of RICHMONDexpressed the great satisfaction he had felt at the measure which had been proposed in another place last night by his noble Friend Lord George Bentinck. He thought it was a measure much more likely to be of permanent service to Ireland, than any measure that had ever been brought forward since he had occupied a seat in Parliament. The measure of his noble Friend appeared to him to begin at the right end; its object was to induce capital to flow from this country into Ireland. He believed that if they afforded employment to the people of Ireland, and gave them fair wages, they would do much to improve their moral condition; that the people would consume a much larger quantity of exciseable articles; that they would be able to live upon the produce of their own agriculture, and to purchase our manufactures, thereby extending that home market which, in his opinion, was the foundation of the prosperity of the great mass of the operatives of this country. He felt that there could be no objection to the production of the returns which had been moved for by the noble and learned Lord; and he hoped when they were produced, it would be found that there was a very large body of English and Scotch Members of Parlia- 854 ment who had nothing to do with railways who would carry the measure of his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck). He entertained the firmest confidence that the people of England would well understand that they were not called upon to pay one single shilling by the measure of his noble Friend, which would give food to above 500,000 of the population of the sister kingdom, whose distresses they all deeply deplored. Temporary measures were necessary at this moment, but more permanent measures were also necessary to insure the prosperity of Ireland; and he thought his noble Friend (Lord George Bentinck) had shown himself to be a statesman by the Bill which he had last night introduced in a most forcible speech to the other House.
§ EARL FITZWILLIAMcould not help regretting the tone which this conversation had taken, though he was not surprised at the tone of it, considering the nature of the Motion which had been made. It might occur, not to him, but a passing thought might glance through the minds of some of their Lordships, that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) might perhaps have some other sidelong view besides the mere view of placing before Parliament the names of those persons who were possessed of shares in Irish railways. When he looked that morning at the Votes of the House of Commons, he observed that a Bill had been presented for facilitating the employment of people in that country by the encouragement of railways. This was the first entry in the Votes. He had then looked with an anxious hope to see that this Bill had been brought in by his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury. Greatly was he disappointed to find that the Bill was in other hands, and those hands not official, though not less active. He found, from what he had read in those unofficial records to which their Lordships were in the habit of referring, that the noble Lord who had already been alluded to (Lord George Bentinck) had exhibited a degree of zeal, intelligence, and industry, which he thought entitled him to the gratitude not only of Ireland but of the United Empire. He wished that this measure had been in the hands of his noble Friend on his left. He wished that they had had the credit of this addition to the useful, but notwithstanding, as he thought, the small and imperfect measures which they had already brought forward. He was in hopes that this great crowning measure 855 would have been, in other hands than those in which it was placed, because sure he was that a measure of such importance to the community could never be usefully carried through Parliament but through the medium of the Executive Government. He trusted that there would be no improper—as he should consider it on this occasion—interposition of the prerogative to prevent the progress of this measure. He trusted, and indeed he felt perfect confidence, that in the hands of his noble Friends, who represented that historical party in the State whose efforts had always been directed rather to curb than to pamper and flatter the prerogative, the country would be safe against any such attempt being made. He had come down to the House with a firm determination to express his sentiments on this subject; and considering the relation in which he stood towards most, if not all, of those who composed Her Majesty's Administration, he had felt it his duty to communicate to the head of the Government what he intended to do, because he could not conceal from himself that as his noble Friends had not been the authors of this measure, it might not perhaps be entirely agreeable to them that he should express his satisfaction at a measure which had not proceeded from Her Majesty's Government. But let the measure come from whom it might, he would give it, when it came to that House, his undivided and strenuous support. Not that he thought this the most advantageous Bill that might have been propounded. Not but that he thought that the machinery which it contemplated ought not to be in the hands of private individuals and companies, who might look more to their own interests than to those Irish and national interests which he had so much at heart. He thought that the direction of the system ought to be in the hands of the Government. He had an original and rooted opinion that the whole of our railway system should be in their hands. He hoped, therefore, that his noble Friends would take this measure into their own keeping, In their hands it ought to be, and he hoped that in their hands it would be brought to perfection. He was sure that it would work more for the benefit of Ireland, and if for the benefit of Ireland, for the benefit of the United Kingdom, than any other measure which could be presented for their Lordships' consideration. With regard to the other measures relating to Ireland which had been brought for- 856 ward by the Government, unless there were something with which to follow them up, he thought that they would fail in their object; and he would tell their Lordships why he thought so. These measures contemplated the improvement of Ireland through the medium of the landlords of Ireland. He was not going to express any opinion either for or against the landlords of Ireland; but he thought that measures which contemplated the improvement of Ireland through the instrumentality of one class of persons, and that class of persons one on whom something like a penal poor law was to be imposed, were not likely to lead to results which their Lordships would like to anticipate. He thought, that in connexion with railways, a system of emigration, if not carried on, ought at least to be largely assisted by the Government. He thought, also, that persons employed on railways by the Government ought to have an opportunity of emigrating themselves; and he considered that gradual emigration ought to go on from the whole surface of Ireland. He did not, however, wish to see any symptoms of clearing estates; on the contrary, if a landlord came to him, and he found that his object was to clear one, or two, or three townlands, he would refuse any assistance towards emigration. He had no doubt that a good system of emigration, connected with this measure of railway employment, would make Ireland capable of bearing a large portion of the burdens of this country; and upon this ground it was that he formed his opinion, that, instead of carrying this measure into effect through the medium of private companies, it should be taken in hand by the Government itself. These were his opinions; and he should not have acted fairly by the House—he should not have acted fairly by his noble Friends, or by those who had introduced the measure in the other House of Parliament, if he had refrained from expressing his sentiments upon that occasion.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad not originally entertained an intention of expressing any opinion upon the topics to which his noble Friend who had just sat down had adverted; because his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) did not mean, nor, he was sure, did he desire, that his Motion should lead to any discussion on the very important question with which that Motion was collaterally connected. To that Motion he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) saw no objection; and the noble 857 Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) saw no objection to it; and till his noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) spoke, he had no intention of saying anything on the subject. But after what had fallen from his noble Friend, with regard to that prerogative of the Crown of which he said he deprecated the exercise, he must say, that the prerogative in question was one of the most constitutional prerogatives vested in the Crown; one which it would be injudicious and unwise to abandon in any instance; and one of which he was confident that his noble Friend would not wish to deprive the Crown when a necessity arose for its exercise. Now, there was no occasion, perhaps, more necessary for the exercise of that prerogative, than when a large expenditure of the public money was in contemplation, and when that expenditure was inevitably and necessarily connected with a wide field of speculation. It was in the proportion that, in the opinion of the advisers of the Crown, such a speculation might be useful to the country, or lead to mischievous effects, it became the duty of Her Majesty's Ministers to make use of that prerogative upon their own responsibility. That was not the time or the place to state whether that prerogative would be exercised or not. This, however, he might say, that it must be evident to his noble Friend, and to the House, that this prerogative had not been needlessly or hastily interposed to prevent discussion on the subject. He could state from authority, that it was the anxious wish of his noble Friend in the other House of Parliament to make no use of that prerogative which could interfere with the full discussion of the measure. The noble Lord who had been referred to (Lord G. Bentinck), was entitled to bring the measure forward; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) thought that it was for the public interest that he should be heard. To what length the discussion upon the mearure might extend, would depend upon the opinion entertained by Her Majesty's advisers upon its beneficial or mischievous tendency.
The EARL of WINCHILSEAentirely agreed in the sentiments which had been expressed by the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond) below him. No man more deeply felt for the situation of Ireland than he did, or felt more anxious in every way to co-operate with Her Majesty's Government in carrying measures which might bring about the permanent improvement of that country. The measures which they 858 had already introduced were, in his opinion, of a temporary character, and would not meet the difficulties which had embarrassed that country for centuries. Whatever tended to the employment of labour there, could not fail to lead to the wealth and prosperity of the other parts of the empire. The Legislature, however, must now, at whatever cost, endeavour to relieve immediately the suffering population. An extensive scheme of colonization he had long advocated as a means of removing the surplus population of Ireland, and enabling them to go to parts of the world where their labour could be turned to better account. He gave full credit to the Government for the measures which they brought in, with a view to giving relief to Ireland; but he thought that further measures were necessary; for although he was aware that many persons were of opinion that the present population of that country was not too large for the resources in the way of employment which the land afforded, yet he did not concur in that opinion; and, therefore, he thought, that measures ought to be taken for effecting colonization, and giving permanent employment to the people. He was quite sure, that if the Government rejected the proposition of the noble Lord in the other House of Parliament, they would have to bring in some comprehensive measure for the relief of Ireland.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ Returns ordered.