Lords Sitting of 2 February 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Buck Wheat, &c. Importation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Poor of the Rye Union, for the Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From Landed Proprietors, Farmers, and others of the County of Linlithgow, against Sugar Distillations.—From Inhabitants of Ballymena, complaining that they are about to be placed under the Jurisdiction of a Baronial Extraordinary Presentment Session; and of other matters mentioned in the Petition.

LAW OF ENTAILS.
The DUKE of RICHMONDmoved for the reappointment of the Select Committee of 1845, to inquire into the expediency of a legislative enactment being introduced, to allow the possessors of entailed estates to charge such estates with a sum to be limited, for the purpose of draining and otherwise permanently improving the same. Many noble Lords connected with Ireland had begged that this Act might be extended to that country. This had been done, but the difficulty was to induce the occupiers at will to consent to the powers given by it. In England, if any occupier refused his consent, the proprietor might give him notice to quit; but in Ireland notices might be given, but they were not very effectually obeyed. The Act, consequently, had not worked well there. The masters in Chancery required each occupier to mate an affidavit that he had given his consent. Under these circumstances, he thought it would be better to refer the subject back to the Committee that prepared the Bill, with the view of seeing what amendments could be made in it. He was afraid, from having a cold, that he was misrepresented in what he stated last night in giving this notice. He saw that it was stated that he intended to call the attention of the House to this subject, for the purpose of getting rid of the law of entail. He said nothing of the kind, for his object was to enable the possessors of landed property to do that which would make the law of entail no grievance to the people of the country at large.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that he hoped his noble Friend would press for a report as speedily as possible, because he thought it would throw much light on the state of Ireland, and because he thought the measure was one of the most unexceptionable measures of relief that could be given to that country.
The DUKE of RICHMONDsaid, that he would do his utmost that the report
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should be laid as speedily as possible on the Table of their Lordships. He would mention that there were many Irish landlords who were desirous of taking advantage of this Act.
The Motion was then agreed to, and the Committee reappointed.

THE USE OE SUGAR IN BREWERIES, &c.
LORD STANLEYpresented petitions from Linlithgow and Dalkeith, against the use of sugar in breweries and distilleries. He did not wish to enter upon any premature discussion on this subject; but he must say that if the measures were to be of any effect whatever, if, in fact, they were to do good or harm, they would effect an enormous change. They would affect most materially the consumer, the Irish and Scotch distiller, whose interests, he must say, ought not to be affected by any hasty legislation. Without wishing to express any opinion as to the scale of duties proposed to be levied, or as affecting those different interests on which they were proposed to be levied by Her Majesty's Government, he hoped that no measure would be passed through Parliament, without all parties having their case fully stated and fully considered. There was one point to which he would call the attention of his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade, which was an important matter, and that was, the relation to be established by the law now and in future between malt and sugar, as used in breweries and distilleries. By the Act of last Session, a material alteration was made in the sugar duties; but that was not the only alteration intended to take place. The duty on British colonial sugar was 14 s., and on foreign sugar 21 s. Now, the differential duty of 7s. was to be in process of reduction until the year 1851, when the duties would be assimilated, and the duty on foreign sugar would, consequently, be 14 s. If sugar were used in breweries and distilleries, and if foreign sugar should enter into competition with malt at its present rate, the reduction of one-third of the duty on foreign sugar at the expiration of that period would give the foreign producer a very great advantage. In that case it would supersede the use of malt in breweries. He did not mean to say what course should be adopted; but he must say that Parliament ought not to adopt any measures without being fully satisfied, and unless the country was fully satisfied, as to the effect of the measures which the Government was about to introduce.

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They might either repeal so much of the Act of last year as related to the progressive decrease of the duty on sugar, or they might take a different course, and accompany the reduction of the duty on foreign sugar with a reduction of the duty on malt, so as to keep permanently the existing relation between the duty on sugar and the duty on malt. If these two articles were to compete on a fair and equal footing, and if no reduction were to be made in the duty on malt, the foreign producer would be placed in a better situation than the grower of malt in this country. He would, therefore, conclude by asking his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade whether there would be any objection to lay on the Table a copy of the report made to Her Majesty's Government by the Commissioners of Excise as to the comparative value of malt and sugar when used in breweries and distilleries?
The EARL of CLARENDONsaid, that he would, to-morrow, tell his noble Friend whether the report could be communicated without inconvenience to the House. With respect to the other matters mentioned by his noble Friend, he thought it would be obviously inconvenient to discuss these measures, as they were not now before the House. He could only assure his noble Friend that any interest that could be affected by these measures would have full opportunity of being heard; and that the matter would receive the fullest consideration from Her Majesty's Government before the measures were proposed.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that nobody could be more averse than he was to complain of any misrepresentation; but at this time, when so much anxiety, almost feverish anxiety, prevailed on the subject of the existing distress in Ireland, one was naturally very anxious that what he said should not be misrepresented. He was stated to have expressed an opinion as to a poor law for Ireland. He had expressly stated, in presenting the Liverpool petition, that he would give no opinion whatever as to what sort of relief there should be. He was represented to have said that it ought not to fall on the Irish landlords. What he said was, that it should not fall on the mortgagees. He said, that if they were to relieve the country by throwing it on the mortgagees, they would commit one of the greatest blunders that was ever committed, for they would only be taxing the landlords through the means of the
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mortgagees. He gave no opinion that they should not let it fall on the Irish landlords.

POOR LAWS.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that he wished to ask a question of the noble Marquess opposite. Several Bills had been introduced and laid on the Table of the other House, which would give increased powers to the Poor Law Commissioners. These Commissioners, he understood, were to be the principal machinery to carry into effect the Irish Poor Bill. He understood that it was the intention of the Government to remodel the whole constitution of the Board of Commissioners. The poor law for Ireland, he believed, was to be separate from the poor law for England. Now, in reading the Bill which had reference to Ireland, they would see that the whole machinery was entrusted to the Poor Law Commissioners; yet there was no Bill before Parliament showing what alteration was intended to be made in the constitution of that Board. He, therefore, wished to know whether it was the intention of the Government to remodel that Commission; whether the Irish Poor Law Commission would be wholly independent of the English one; and whether the way in which this remodelling was proposed to take place would be laid before their Lordships before the Bill which would confer those increased powers on the Commission?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to say that it was the intention of the Government to remodel the Poor Law Commission, but what effect that would have on the Poor Law Commission in Ireland, would be considered when the Bill came before the House; but at present he could not say what its effects would be. The Bill to which the noble Lord referred was not of a temporary but of a permanent nature. There would be a Poor Law Commissioner resident in Ireland.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that as the measure would deeply affect the vital interests of the country, he thought that they ought to have before them the full detals as to the alterations intended to be made in the constitution of that Board.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that he would give the noble Lord the earliest information in his power on the subject.
House adjourned to Thursday.