Lords Sitting of 1 February 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Relief Committee of the Queen's County, for the Adoption of Measures for the proper Supply of Food to the People of Ireland.—From Stirling, against the Proposed Measure for Lowering the Duty on Rum.—From Liverpool, complaining of the great Influx of Irish Paupers into that Town.

RENTS (IRELAND).
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLmoved for—
"A Return of the total Amount of Rents received by Agents appointed under the Court of Chancery in Ireland; specifying to what Accounts the same are paid, whether to the Credit of Suits pending, to the Credit of Minors, Lunatics, or others, from the 1st of January, 1846, to the 1st of January, 1847."
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there could be no objection to furnishing the information the noble Lord required, but it could only be obtained by some officer of the Court of Chancery in Ireland looking through all the causes brought before that court during the last year, which would be a very difficult duty, involving enormous labour, and the results of the investigation could not be rendered available during the present Session.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLdid not wish to give any useless trouble to any of the officers of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, but he was most anxious to ascertain what amount of property was under the control of that court. He thought it very important, under existing circumstances, that Parliament and the country should be informed what were the ways and means of Ireland; and it was with the view of obtaining that information that he moved for this return. He was, however, ready to take any other course which might be more convenient, and which the noble and learned Lord would suggest.
The LORD CHANCELLORthought the noble Earl would obtain his object if he called upon the Accountant General of the Court of Chancery in Ireland to state from his books the receivers' balances for the last year.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEobserved, that no rents were paid at present in Ireland, and therefore the return for the last six months would be nil.

DEBT, DAMAGES, &c. (IRELAND).
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLthen withdrew his Motion, and brought forward a Motion of which he had given notice, for—
"A Return of the total Amount of the Sums appearing to be due for Debt, Damages, and Costs upon all Decrees, Orders, and Judgments in Ireland, redocketed pursuant to the Act of 9th George IV., cap. 35, or registered pursuant to the 7th and 8th Victoria, cap. 90, and now appearing to be redocketed or registered in the Office for registering Judgments in Ireland; distinguishing those which are in Debt from those which are in Case."
The noble Earl observed, that there were upwards of 100,000,000 l. of debt on Irish property, and he thought it most important that this return should be furnished to the House.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHconsidered that if this Motion were agreed to, the officers of the Irish courts would be so continually and unremittingly employed in obtaining the information required, that the business in their offices would be entirely suspended. He thought, however, that it was very desirable the information should be obtained, if it could be furnished without impeding the business of the officers of the court.
The LORD CHANCELLORapprehended that, in the first place, it would be impracticable to obtain this return, for, in order to supply the information asked for by the noble Earl, it would be necessary to examine all the records of the Courts of Law and Equity in Ireland, and that for an indefinite period. He also considered that the return, if obtained, would be perfectly useless; for, supposing it showed 100,000,000 l. of debt, as the noble Earl (Mouncashell) imagined would be the case, it would not show what proportion of that debt had been paid, and would not, therefore, give any accurate view of the actual incumbrances of property.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that even if the return showed the balance unpaid in each case, it would afford no test, nor anything like a test, of the burdens affecting landed property in Ireland, for the return would only apply to property which had been brought into the Courts of Chancery or Common Law. He suggested the postponement of the Motion for a week, in or-
612
der that some communication might take place with the officers of the courts in Ireland, to ascertain whether there would be any material difficulty in making the return.
Motion withdrawn.

IRISH PAUPERS IN LIVERPOOL.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from the mayor, magistrates, and a number of highly respectable inhabitants of Liverpool, complaining of the influx of Irish paupers into that seaport. The petition stated that in fourteen days no fewer than 11,104 paupers came over from Ireland (being at the rate of 800 a day), exclusive of Thursday last, when upwards of 1,100 were brought over in two steamers. The petitioners stated they had reason to believe that thousands of persons were at the present moment begging their way to the various seaports of Ireland, with the intention of seeking their food in this country, and, if possible, in Liverpool. They therefore prayed their Lordships to interfere for their relief, and expressed a hope that Parliament would not separate without passing a law by which the people of Ireland as well as the people of England should be compelled to support their own poor. Upon the subject of a poor law for Ireland he would not express any opinion until the proper moment arrived for discussing it. Meanwhile the grievance to the people of Liverpool was of an extremely serious character; for, although under a recent Act these paupers could be sent back, yet the expense of their maintenance until that could be done, and the expense of their transmission, fell very heavily upon the ratepayers. He was aware the public press contended that the land of Ireland ought to be taxed for the support of the Irish poor; but that would be only taxing the landlords twice over, because the mortgagee would call in his mortgage. Such a proposition was a species of cheap humanity that reminded him of a saying of Lord Elibank's, that there were two things in which most people were exceedingly generous—other people's money and their own advice. These persons were proclaiming the right of the poor to be fed; but he denied the right of the poor man to be fed, unless by his own labour. The Government were not bound to feed the poor, or even to find them work. The only duty of the Government in that behalf was to remove all obstacles in the way of the people finding work for themselves.

613
Some persons were calling out for more public works in Ireland, and others demanded a loan of 20,000,000 l. for making the railways. He would not stop to inquire whether these latter had first bought shares in the Irish railways, and wished to raise the price of them. But he warned the House that all the millions they might give would not stop the mouths of those who were crying for food. He trusted that whatever steps their Lordships might take respecting the maintenance of the Irish poor would be in the right direction, and that they would not suffer themselves either to be driven, or coaxed and seduced, into any other by compliments to their humanity. He feared that complaints would soon be heard from Glasgow, Greenock, Bristol, and other ports, unless some measure could be devised for checking the immigration of Irish paupers.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATH, as a representative Peer of Ireland, admitted that the town of Liverpool had a grievance. The inhabitants thought they could trace it to the landed proprietors of Ireland; but he said it did not lie at their door, but at the door of those laws which were directed against the management of their estates, and from which they could not escape. There was also the greatest difficulty in putting the law in force for the ejection of tenants at will. There was much delay at first, occasioned by the length of the notice required; and even after verdict was obtained it was not always easy to eject the defendants, where there were many persons interested in opposing the execution of the law. And even where that was effected, there was the utmost difficulty in getting a new tenant, so fearful were the people of being attacked; so that it was not unusual for a landlord to put a person in possession on his own account, thus rendering him liable to violence, and perhaps to be murdered. He could mention a case which illustrated the difficulty of putting the law in force. He had himself, after much delay and unnecessary expense, recovered verdicts against some persons who were on his land. Some of those were subsequently lodged in prison. They applied under the Insolvent Act, when they were duly called on to give up possession of the land. But they got men to come forward and swear they were not in possession of it, and the court believed those witnesses. The consequence was, that the men were discharged, and they returned and took possession of the
614
land again. He contended that it was not just that the landlords should be called on to bear the whole burden of the consequences of a state of things which they were powerless to prevent. He said this with every feeling of gratitude as an Irishman for the efforts which the English were making to mitigate the existing distress in Ireland; but for his own part he would say give him his estate, and he would not ask the Government for money. He felt it to be his duty on all occasions, as he did on the present, to rise and enter his protest against the aspersions and imputations that were constantly cast upon the Irish landlords.
LORD BROUGHAMdisclaimed having cast any imputation on the landlords of Ireland.
House adjourned.