LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from Protestant Dissenters of Reading and Banbury, against the Government plan of Education. He wished to know whether in the Minutes of 1839 it was provided that the authorized version alone should be used? If so, Roman Catholics would have been excluded, and he never would have consented to one farthing of a grant which would have had that effect. The noble Lord then put a question to the noble Marquess the President of the Council, respecting applications by Roman Catholics for assistance to schools under the Minutes of Council.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that the words "authorized version" were not in the Minutes of 1839; but it had never been intended or understood 941 that any other than the authorized version of the Scriptures should be used in the schools; and, whenever application should be made by Roman Catholic schools, they would be told that the applications would be open to consideration wiih respect to the regulations at the schools.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, if the Scriptures were to be used in the schools, that the term "Scriptures," ex vi termini, meant the authorized version, there could be no doubt. But he did not think that the exclusion of a particular class of schools was so well understood as the noble Marquess seemed to think. If Government had no doubt themselves on the point, why, he would ask, was their answer to recent applications for aid from Roman Catholic schools, that they would consider the question of giving aid to them? He, for one, thought that the word "Scriptures" ought to include every regular version of the sacred writings, whether of the Roman Catholic or of the Protestant Church; and he was never more astonished in his life than he was to find that any doubt ever existed as to the propriety of educating Roman Catholic children. They all knew that in England there were very few Roman Catholics of a class requiring Government aid. Such schools were confined to one or two places, such as Liverpool, and Glasgow in Scotland. In Ireland, where the great bulk of the population was Roman Catholic, no such exclusion was possible, or was attempted. He could not allow the opportunity to pass without expressing the sorrow he felt that, not in 1447 or 1547, but in the year 1847, they should find, as appeared from what was going on elsewhere, the great question of education mixed up with all the embroilment of sectarian violence and bigotry.
§ LORD BEAUMONTwished to know, if he understood what fell from the noble Marquess to mean that there was no other Minute of Council with regard to the authorized version of the Scripture existing, but that which bore date the 3rd of December, 1839; because, if there were no Minutes except those published, he thought it required some ingenuity to construe them into the meaning given to them by the noble Marquess, namely, that the authorized version of the Scripture in its integrity must be used in all schools receiving aid. The words of the Minute of 1839 were, "the daily reading of a portion of the Scriptures," which might mean, he thought, such portions as were used in the 942 National Schools in Ireland. He wished distinctly to state also that one of the sources of his regret at the explanations given, was, that they would have the effect of creating further sectarian division. He disliked separate education. He had hoped to see under the same roof, taught by the same masters, and inspected by the same officers, both Catholic and Protestant children. He wished to see the same secular education given to both of these persuasions in the same school, convinced that if they could study together, much of that sense of separation and of those divisional interests which were the cause of all sectarian feeling, would gradually disappear; and the two portions of the community be thus drawn closer together in after life, to the general advancement of Christian charity towards each other. Now, from the plan adoped, that great result could not be attained. Whether or not the Committee of Privy Council might thereafter choose to give assistance to Roman Catholic schools, was yet to be seen. But in any case, if assisted, or not, the Roman Catholics would be taught in Roman Catholic schools alone; so that the advantages of inspection would be lost, as well as of children of both persuasions being taught in the same schools. But the question he wished to put to the noble Marquess was this: was there any other unpublished Minute of the Committee of Council in existence beyond that dated the 3rd of December, 1839?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, no other Minute whatsoever. He proceeded to say that the Roman Catholics were so persuaded they were excluded from participation in the grants for education that they had never made any application for assistance. He entirely agreed with his noble Friend that it would be most desirable that children of all religious persuasions should be taught together if it were practicable; and he should much desire to see a practicable scheme proposed for such a purpose. He begged to make another observation before sitting down. No application had been made requiring an explanatory communication with reference to the authorized version of the Scriptures being ordered to be used; but if applications had been made by Roman Catholics, the judgment upon such applications would have been founded upon special inquiries, to be made in each particular case. It would be necessary the Council should know what sort of regulations were 943 those proposed for the school mentioned in each application, because he had no authority for supposing that if there were no difficulties existing with respect to the version of the Scriptures, the other regulations of the Privy Council would be accepted by Roman Catholics for their schools. Up to that moment he had no authority for saying that the other regulations would be submitted to. In every particular case, they could not tell how they should direct, the application of the public money, without first knowing what regulations would be applicable to them. But they did not think it would be consistent for the Privy Council to alter the mode of applying the money voted, without making special application to Parliament.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, the noble Marquess had not answered his question, which was to know the meaning of the word "Scriptures" as used in the Minute, or whether the authorized version were to be the one used. For if, by the word "Scripture," the authorized version were meant, it could not be used in schools to which Roman Catholics were to be admitted, because every one knew that if the authorized version were to be used, no Roman Catholie would allow a child to attend the school any more than he would a school where the doctrine of transubstantiation or any other Catholic doctrine were impugned.
The EARL of RADNORwas understood to ask a question of the noble Marquess regarding certain assertions which he found in a copy of a circular from the Central Committee for promoting the Government scheme of Education relative to some pledge said to have been given by Lord John Russell to present and support (we believe) whatever petitions might be forwarded to his Lordship by the Committee.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas entirely ignorant of the circumstance, as he was ignorant of other circulars sent through the country for the purpose of obtaining petitions against the measure—circulars, some of them containing the falsest statements with regard to it. It was well known there were various societies in the kingdom in the habit of circulating statements for particular purposes, in support of the objects they had in view; and it was not extraordinary that if societies on the one side had been in the habit of circulating statements, that societies on the other should follow the same course. Although he knew nothing of what might have passed 944 between the parties alluded to by the noble Earl and Lord John Russell on the subject, he yet was satisfied that Lord John Russell had given no other assurance than that he would, as he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) himself would do and had done, namely, present such petitions to Parliament as he might be entrusted with. He had presented, as their Lordships were aware, petitions on both sides of the question. He was always ready to present such petitions as were sent to him for the purpose, and he had then behind him a large number of petitions which he was about to present to their Lordships against those Minutes of Council, regarding which he had stated to the parties who had entrusted him with them that he was quite as ready to present them as any other. He did not think that Lord John Russell had given anything like the promise or engagement mentioned, with respect to the exclusion either of Roman Catholics or any other religious persuasion. They (the Government) had kept themselves perfectly free and unfettered, to make new Minutes if they should think it necessary. They did not pledge themselves to any sort of restriction.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to know if the word "Scriptures" meant the Douay version as well as the authorized version? He wished to know, was his noble Friend ready to state that the Douay version would be admitted to be used in the schools?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to reply, that such a step could not be adopted without reference to Parliament.
§ At a subsequent part of the evening the noble Marquess having presented petitions for and against the Government plan, the subject was renewed.
LORD BROUGHAMbegged to be informed by the noble Marquess, if the word "Scriptures," as used in the former Minute of the 31st of December, 1839, would not be changed? Did his noble Friend mean to say that no change would be made in the provisions of the Minute, without the sanction of Parliament?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to reply, that no change would be made in the Minute without submitting it to Parliament.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid that he wanted to know whether no change would be made without the sanction of Parliament? His noble Friend said, "without submitting it 945 to Parliament," but that made all the difference. He wished to know, was there to be no change made without the sanction of Parliament?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, that the mode in which a grant would be asked for would be this. The vote would be taken year by year, and when the Government asked for the grant they would lay the Minutes of the Committee of Council on Education before Parliament, and explain the manner in which the money would be applied.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that that was satisfactory and unexceptionable, because it gave power to Parliament to see how the money was to be applied.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that before application would be made to Parliament for the grant, the Government would state what the Minutes of Council were.
LORD BROUGHAMsuggested, that supposing 50,000l. were granted by Parliament after the Minutes of Council had been laid before it, a fresh Minute might be made the day after the vote had passed, and Parliament would have no means of checking it. The Government might thus apply the money as they chose.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad no hesitation in saying, that under such circumstances the Committee of Privy Council should communicate beforehand to Parliament any alteration they intended to make in the Minutes.