Lords Sitting of 19 April 1847

MINUTES.
Sat first.—Lord Rodney, after the Death of his Uncle.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Poor Relief (Ireland); Landed Property (Ireland).
2a Exchequer Bills; Troops during Elections.
Reported,—Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Indemnity.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Walsingham, from Suffolk, against the Poor Removal Act.—By Lord Feversham, from Dissenters of Stroud, and a great number of other places, against the proposed Government Plan of Education.—By the Earl of Eglintoun, from Malt Distillers of Scotland, against the proposed Reduction of Duty on Colonial Spirits, unless accompanied by a corresponding Reduction of Duty on Malt used in making Malt Spirits.—From the Clifden Relief Committee, complaining of the Distress in Ireland, and praying for a Supply of Seed Corn.—From Bridgewater and several other places, in favour of the proposed Government Plan of Education.—From the Gorey Poor Law Union, respecting the Revision of the Law of Landlord and Tenant—From Tipperary, for the Advancement of Sums of Money, by way of Loan, to Railway Companies in Ireland.—From the Grand Jury of the North Riding of the County of Tipperary, against the Indiscriminate Sale of Fire Arms in Ireland.

WANT OF SEED (IRELAND).
The EARL of CLANCARTY: I beg to present to your Lordships a petition from the relief committee of Clifden, in the county of Galway, representing the destitution of the farmers in that district with respect to the means of sowing the land, and praying that your Lordships would take such steps as may avert from that district the recurrence of a famine. I am aware that your Lordships have no power of complying with the prayer of the petition; but my laying it upon the Table of the House may be so far beneficial, that your Lordships will then have before you a faithful representation of the existing circumstances of a district which is, I fear, but a sample of many others similarly circumstanced in the west and south of Ireland—of that country for which you are now called upon to provide an extended poor law, and to apply the operation of principles which, according as they are sound or unsound, may either lay the foundation of great and lasting social improvement, or aggravate the evils by which it is retarded. I should have presented this petition to your Lordships before Easter; but having been detained in the west of Ireland by the duties which the present distressed state of the country demands at the hands of the landed proprietors, I did that which was most likely to be of use to the petitioners—I brought the case under the notice of Lord
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John Russell, through whom alone, as the head of the Government, any effectual steps could be taken to remedy a state of things threatening to the very existence of a large population. But although I am impressed with the belief that the noble Lord was most anxious to provide a remedy, I much apprehend that the steps he has taken may prove altogether unavailing even to mitigate the evil; and this is my reason for troubling your Lordships with the statement, as I am desirous of drawing the attention of noble Lords connected with the Government to the subject. His Lordship wrote to me a few days after my interview with him, to acquaint me that my wishes with respect to the district in question had been anticipated, as I should see by referring to a copy he enclosed to me of a letter addressed on the 31st of March from Mr. Trevelyan to the officer in command of Her Majesty's steamer Odin, having on board, from the British Relief Association, a cargo of various seeds, to be disposed of at certain specified prices, for ready money, at Galway, Clifden, Westport, and Belmullet. I should be glad to hear that the prices had been realized, as it would show satisfactorily that there did not exist that destitution in the district which the petition leads one to believe, and because, if the seed has been disposed of, not only will the requisite of sowing the land have been provided in the best manner, but some useful crops will have been introduced, the cultivation of which may more than compensate for the loss of the potato; but when I compare the price to be paid for the oats, the article most needed—20 s. per barrel—and find that it rather exceeds the market price of the same article at the same date in the markets of the following Irish seaports; that at Cork oats were selling from 14 s. to 21 s.; at Waterford, from 18 s. to 23 s.; at Wexford, from 14 s. to 18 s.; and at Galway, from 18 s. to 23 s.; and that no sales are to be made except for ready money—I cannot but fear that the expedition of this cargo of seeds, however benevolently intended, is not likely to be attended with any beneficial results. Mr. Trevelyan, in writing the letter of instructions, appears to have already realized in imagination the prices at which these seeds were to be disposed of, and is very particular in his instructions upon the subject. He writes thus:—
"You will make no sales except for ready money; and you will keep the sums received by

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you in some secure place on board the steamer, and pay them immediately on your return to London to the treasurer of the Association."
I do not believe, my Lords, that these sums of money, the price of the seeds, exist in the district of Clifden; the petition expressly notices the destitution of the farmers, and states that the landlords, however willing, have not the means of assisting their tenants. It is almost mockery of distress to offer, under such circumstances, to supply seeds for ready money at the market prices. The character of Mr. D'Arcy, the chairman of the Clifden relief committee, whose name is to the petition, is a guarantee for the truth of what it represents. My noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Clanricarde) will, I am sure, bear me out in saying that this gentleman is deservedly respected as a resident proprietor of most active benevolence, and unwearied in his exertions to improve that district of country, where, in the town of Clifden, he has laid the foundation of the civilization and future prosperity of the county. To some of your Lordships it may appear strange that with a proprietor so active and well disposed, the district in which he resides should be so backward in improvement as to have been, as the petition represents, heretofore wholly dependent upon the potato crop; but such of your Lordships as are acquainted with Ireland, will better appreciate the difficulties arising from the prejudices, habits, and dispositions of the peasantry, that obstruct improvement, and especially their improvidence and want of self-reliance—dispositions which, I regret to say, have been not a little increased by the operation of the temporary relief measures, and by the mode in which they have been administered. I do not blame Her Majesty's Ministers for having proposed those measures; in proposing them they acted for the best, and with the almost unanimous concurrence of Parliament. They were only opposed by some of the landlords of Ireland, who, unfortunately, not being in the favour and confidence of the Government, were not heeded. Had their representations been attended to, the labour that has been wasted upon the roads of the country, the money that has been thus unprofitably squandered, would have been beneficially invested, and the fatal error avoided of withdrawing an agricultural population from works connected with agriculture, at a time when, more than ever, it was necessary to improve the resources of the
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soil, and to stimulate the activity of the husbandman; but the time was short, and the Temporary Relief Bill—the Labour-rate Act—of last Session was introduced at a period too late for due deliberation. By that Act, the Government practically undertook the relief of the distressed poor. The proprietors of the land, the ratepayers, and the guardians of the poor, were superseded in the duties which they could best have performed, by officers of the Army and civil engineers, acting under the sole authority of the Board of Works, rarely in concert with and generally in opposition to the wishes of the resident gentry; and both by the high rate of wages and the license given to idleness, the great body of the labouring class, to the number of 700,000, were withdrawn from the fields to work upon the highways. I am well aware that the Government sought and hoped by the introduction of a system of task-work to remedy the demoralisation which had resulted from the employment given under the late Government upon the public roads; and I was myself not without hope that good might thereby have been effected; but the circumstances were adverse, the price of provisions had become so exorbitant in consequence of the principles of political economy having been pushed too far, that it became necessary to increase the rates of wages; and as it was impossible during the short days of winter in frost and snow that a day's work could be performed, many had to be paid without the performance of the required task; and the result has been the total demoralisation of the labouring class, and their belief that whether they work or not the State will provide for them. The bad results of the Labour-rate Act led, I believe, to the early assembling of Parliament, and to the endeavour by the Temporary Relief Act of the present Session to throw the labour again upon the land. The responsibility has been cast upon the resident gentry, of administering under this Act the necessary supplies of food to those in want. That duty the gentry of Ireland are zealously engaged in performing; but, on the part of the labouring class, there is found an unwillingness to accept from the former the comparatively low rate of wages which it is in their power to offer, and for which they would require a return in work: hence the operations of farming have been retarded, and much of the land lies untitled for want of the hands

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necessary to cultivate it. For the ill success of the Labour-rate Act, the Government are not altogether to blame; but to the operation of that Act it is undoubtedly owing that the farms are in many places yet untilled. But errors were committed by the Government which might and ought to have been avoided, and which did mislead as to their intentions with respect to supplying seed and seed corn: these circumstances are noticed in the petition. On the 16th of October Sir Randolph Routh issued to the several relief committees the following circular:—
"Commissariat Relief Office, Dublin Castle, 16th October, 1846.
"Sir—Commissary-General Sir Randolph I. Routh has the satisfaction to state, that it is intended by Her Majesty's Government to place seed rye at the disposal of the Commissariat in Ireland—to be consigned to Dublin, and sold at cost price.
"The relief committees in Ireland are requested to supply immediately returns of the extent of land now prepared for rye crop, or which may be prepared in due time for this season; and the quantity of seed required, which will be forwarded to them, or to the nearest point accessible by water.
"If barley or bere should in any cases be preferred, it is requested that the applications be made specially for that seed.—I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant,
"W. STANLEY, Secretary."
Though disapproving of the step thus taken by the Government, as tending, without any necessity, to interfere with the ordinary economy of the farmer, and to raise expectations of further aid in the sowing of the land, I yet felt that this seeming boon having been offered, it was right to send the required return of the proportion of land for which such seed might be supplied: the inquiry necessarily raised expectation, but the promised supply was never sent. About the same time were issued the rules, a copy of which I hold in my hand, under which the relief committees were required to register persons to be employed on the public works. Among those who required to be so employed were many who held small farms, and it was not deemed necessary or desirable to require that their seed corn as well as available food should be consumed. Under these rules the instructions to the relief committees were that—"None should be registered but such as shall appear to be in actual necessity of relief, having no other resource or means of acquiring subsistence." Among the applicants for relief were many who, though they held small farms, really stood in need
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of it; and it had been previously deemed desirable that they should reserve a sufficiency of corn for seed. Reflections, however, were made upon the Committees for recommending persons to be employed who, it was reported, had stacks of corn in their haggards. English gentlemen, readers of the Times or Daily News, were taught to believe that the landlords were thus endeavouring to secure their rents. Relief committees were therefore required strictly to interpret their instructions, that the few sheaves of corn which constitute the store for seed of the small farmer of three or four acres, had to be consumed as food before the occupier or any of his family could be employed. This, coupled with the promise of seed rye, seemed to imply that seed corn would likewise be supplied by the Government when the time should come, as it has done, for sowing it. I am far from thinking that the Government should be looked to in general for such aid; and I think no expectation of the kind should ever be raised; but in this case it was raised, and I think the Government have made themselves responsible for the state of things represented in the petition; and I therefore hope that if the officer in charge of the cargo of seed has not been able to dispose of it according to his published instructions, he may have had secret instructions to fall back upon, which may have enabled him, ere this, to advance on credit, or in some cases gratuitously, the seed indispensable for sowing the land. If not, I would earnestly impress upon the Government the duty of promptly interfering.

THE GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from Protestant Dissenters of Reading and Banbury, against the Government plan of Education. He wished to know whether in the Minutes of 1839 it was provided that the authorized version alone should be used? If so, Roman Catholics would have been excluded, and he never would have consented to one farthing of a grant which would have had that effect. The noble Lord then put a question to the noble Marquess the President of the Council, respecting applications by Roman Catholics for assistance to schools under the Minutes of Council.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that the words "authorized version" were not in the Minutes of 1839; but it had never been intended or understood

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that any other than the authorized version of the Scriptures should be used in the schools; and, whenever application should be made by Roman Catholic schools, they would be told that the applications would be open to consideration wiih respect to the regulations at the schools.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, if the Scriptures were to be used in the schools, that the term "Scriptures," ex vi termini, meant the authorized version, there could be no doubt. But he did not think that the exclusion of a particular class of schools was so well understood as the noble Marquess seemed to think. If Government had no doubt themselves on the point, why, he would ask, was their answer to recent applications for aid from Roman Catholic schools, that they would consider the question of giving aid to them? He, for one, thought that the word "Scriptures" ought to include every regular version of the sacred writings, whether of the Roman Catholic or of the Protestant Church; and he was never more astonished in his life than he was to find that any doubt ever existed as to the propriety of educating Roman Catholic children. They all knew that in England there were very few Roman Catholics of a class requiring Government aid. Such schools were confined to one or two places, such as Liverpool, and Glasgow in Scotland. In Ireland, where the great bulk of the population was Roman Catholic, no such exclusion was possible, or was attempted. He could not allow the opportunity to pass without expressing the sorrow he felt that, not in 1447 or 1547, but in the year 1847, they should find, as appeared from what was going on elsewhere, the great question of education mixed up with all the embroilment of sectarian violence and bigotry.
LORD BEAUMONTwished to know, if he understood what fell from the noble Marquess to mean that there was no other Minute of Council with regard to the authorized version of the Scripture existing, but that which bore date the 3rd of December, 1839; because, if there were no Minutes except those published, he thought it required some ingenuity to construe them into the meaning given to them by the noble Marquess, namely, that the authorized version of the Scripture in its integrity must be used in all schools receiving aid. The words of the Minute of 1839 were, "the daily reading of a portion of the Scriptures," which might mean, he thought, such portions as were used in the
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National Schools in Ireland. He wished distinctly to state also that one of the sources of his regret at the explanations given, was, that they would have the effect of creating further sectarian division. He disliked separate education. He had hoped to see under the same roof, taught by the same masters, and inspected by the same officers, both Catholic and Protestant children. He wished to see the same secular education given to both of these persuasions in the same school, convinced that if they could study together, much of that sense of separation and of those divisional interests which were the cause of all sectarian feeling, would gradually disappear; and the two portions of the community be thus drawn closer together in after life, to the general advancement of Christian charity towards each other. Now, from the plan adoped, that great result could not be attained. Whether or not the Committee of Privy Council might thereafter choose to give assistance to Roman Catholic schools, was yet to be seen. But in any case, if assisted, or not, the Roman Catholics would be taught in Roman Catholic schools alone; so that the advantages of inspection would be lost, as well as of children of both persuasions being taught in the same schools. But the question he wished to put to the noble Marquess was this: was there any other unpublished Minute of the Committee of Council in existence beyond that dated the 3rd of December, 1839?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, no other Minute whatsoever. He proceeded to say that the Roman Catholics were so persuaded they were excluded from participation in the grants for education that they had never made any application for assistance. He entirely agreed with his noble Friend that it would be most desirable that children of all religious persuasions should be taught together if it were practicable; and he should much desire to see a practicable scheme proposed for such a purpose. He begged to make another observation before sitting down. No application had been made requiring an explanatory communication with reference to the authorized version of the Scriptures being ordered to be used; but if applications had been made by Roman Catholics, the judgment upon such applications would have been founded upon special inquiries, to be made in each particular case. It would be necessary the Council should know what sort of regulations were

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those proposed for the school mentioned in each application, because he had no authority for supposing that if there were no difficulties existing with respect to the version of the Scriptures, the other regulations of the Privy Council would be accepted by Roman Catholics for their schools. Up to that moment he had no authority for saying that the other regulations would be submitted to. In every particular case, they could not tell how they should direct, the application of the public money, without first knowing what regulations would be applicable to them. But they did not think it would be consistent for the Privy Council to alter the mode of applying the money voted, without making special application to Parliament.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, the noble Marquess had not answered his question, which was to know the meaning of the word "Scriptures" as used in the Minute, or whether the authorized version were to be the one used. For if, by the word "Scripture," the authorized version were meant, it could not be used in schools to which Roman Catholics were to be admitted, because every one knew that if the authorized version were to be used, no Roman Catholie would allow a child to attend the school any more than he would a school where the doctrine of transubstantiation or any other Catholic doctrine were impugned.
The EARL of RADNORwas understood to ask a question of the noble Marquess regarding certain assertions which he found in a copy of a circular from the Central Committee for promoting the Government scheme of Education relative to some pledge said to have been given by Lord John Russell to present and support (we believe) whatever petitions might be forwarded to his Lordship by the Committee.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas entirely ignorant of the circumstance, as he was ignorant of other circulars sent through the country for the purpose of obtaining petitions against the measure—circulars, some of them containing the falsest statements with regard to it. It was well known there were various societies in the kingdom in the habit of circulating statements for particular purposes, in support of the objects they had in view; and it was not extraordinary that if societies on the one side had been in the habit of circulating statements, that societies on the other should follow the same course. Although he knew nothing of what might have passed
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between the parties alluded to by the noble Earl and Lord John Russell on the subject, he yet was satisfied that Lord John Russell had given no other assurance than that he would, as he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) himself would do and had done, namely, present such petitions to Parliament as he might be entrusted with. He had presented, as their Lordships were aware, petitions on both sides of the question. He was always ready to present such petitions as were sent to him for the purpose, and he had then behind him a large number of petitions which he was about to present to their Lordships against those Minutes of Council, regarding which he had stated to the parties who had entrusted him with them that he was quite as ready to present them as any other. He did not think that Lord John Russell had given anything like the promise or engagement mentioned, with respect to the exclusion either of Roman Catholics or any other religious persuasion. They (the Government) had kept themselves perfectly free and unfettered, to make new Minutes if they should think it necessary. They did not pledge themselves to any sort of restriction.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to know if the word "Scriptures" meant the Douay version as well as the authorized version? He wished to know, was his noble Friend ready to state that the Douay version would be admitted to be used in the schools?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to reply, that such a step could not be adopted without reference to Parliament.
At a subsequent part of the evening the noble Marquess having presented petitions for and against the Government plan, the subject was renewed.
LORD BROUGHAMbegged to be informed by the noble Marquess, if the word "Scriptures," as used in the former Minute of the 31st of December, 1839, would not be changed? Did his noble Friend mean to say that no change would be made in the provisions of the Minute, without the sanction of Parliament?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to reply, that no change would be made in the Minute without submitting it to Parliament.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid that he wanted to know whether no change would be made without the sanction of Parliament? His noble Friend said, "without submitting it

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to Parliament," but that made all the difference. He wished to know, was there to be no change made without the sanction of Parliament?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, that the mode in which a grant would be asked for would be this. The vote would be taken year by year, and when the Government asked for the grant they would lay the Minutes of the Committee of Council on Education before Parliament, and explain the manner in which the money would be applied.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that that was satisfactory and unexceptionable, because it gave power to Parliament to see how the money was to be applied.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that before application would be made to Parliament for the grant, the Government would state what the Minutes of Council were.
LORD BROUGHAMsuggested, that supposing 50,000 l. were granted by Parliament after the Minutes of Council had been laid before it, a fresh Minute might be made the day after the vote had passed, and Parliament would have no means of checking it. The Government might thus apply the money as they chose.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad no hesitation in saying, that under such circumstances the Committee of Privy Council should communicate beforehand to Parliament any alteration they intended to make in the Minutes.

OXFORD AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY.
LORD LYNDHURSTthen called their Lordships' attention to the order which had been made previously to the Easter recess for the appointment of a Select Committee of Inquiry into the dispute between the North-Western and the London and Birmingham Railway Companies relative to the Oxford and Birmingham line. He hoped that the matter would not be allowed to drop, but that the order which had been made would be acted upon without any further day.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he was not petition, he should say that their Lordships present on the occasion when this matter was discussed, or he should certainly have opposed the appointment of a Committee for such a purpose. Unless their Lordships were prepared to grant a remedy, they should not have granted this Committee. It was admitted, that a Bill called Oxford and Birmingham Railway Bill was passed last Session, under which
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powers were given to the directors to be appointed under it (provided a certain number of shareholders in the company were agreeable to the same) to sell their line to the Great Western Company.
LORD LYNDHURSTapprehended that his noble Friend was irregular. An order had been made for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the abuses complained of; but it was agreed to postpone the inquiry until certain proceedings in the Court of Chancery, which might render the inquiry unnecessary, were disposed of. As the order had been already granted, the only course which remained open for his noble Friend, if he objected to the inquiry, was to give notice of his intention to move on a future day that the order for the Committee be discharged.
LORD REDESDALEcertainly intended to make such a Motion. He considered the order for this Committee of Inquiry to be the sanctioning of the most dangerous principle that was ever introduced in the legislation of that House, for it would give no securities to parties that had obtained Acts of Parliament. It would enable Parliament, after they had passed a private Bill, to deliberate whether it would not be expedient for them to put the same Act aside as if it had never been passed.
The LORD CHANCELLORthought it necessary to state to their Lordships how the matter stood. The question before the Court of Chancery had been previously sent before and decided on by the Vice-Chancellor of England. It was to decide who were now in law to be considered the legal directors of the Oxford and Birmingham Railway Company; whether certain persons were to be considered the legal directors of that company, or certain other persons were to be considered as such. Now, that being the question pending before him (the Lord Chancellor), how far it might be connected with other transactions between other railway companies he had no means of forming an opinion; but if it were alleged to be portion of them in the petition, he should say that their Lordships would not be acting wisely in sending the matter for inquiry before the Committee, whilst the question "Who are the directors?" was pending in a court of law. Their Lordships should be very well able to judge beforehand that the matters were totally disconnected. But as the case before him would, in all probability, be disposed of before the end of the week, their

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Lordships would soon have a better opportunity of judging. The questions might be totally and entirely distinct; but he thought their Lordships would do well to be quite sure of it before they engaged in any inquiry.
LORD LYNDHURSTcontended that the case before the Court of Chancery, arising as it did out of the question, whether four directors should have gone out of office on the 27th of February, had nothing to do with the inquiry before their Lordships. However, if it were their Lordships' pleasure that it should stand over until his noble and learned Friend had become satisfied upon the subject, he (Lord Lyndhurst) would not object.

THE RECENT EXECUTION AT BURY.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHsaid that he wished to call the attention of the Government to a statement which had appeared in the public newspapers of that morning with respect to the execution of an unfortunate woman at Bury St. Edmunds for poisoning her husband. It stated that 11,000 persons were at the execution, and that it was conducted in such an improper manner that the sufferings of the unfortunate woman were prolonged for a considerable time. The assembly of persons congregated at the execution were so horrified at the proceedings that they cried out "Shame!" and "Murder!" For his own part he believed that the punishment of death could not be expunged from the Statute-book; but he was sure no one would say that the sentence of the law, when passed on those who were consigned to an untimely end, should be performed in such a manner as to lead to such protraction of the pain and sufferings of the person to be executed, through the carelessness or cruelty of the executioner. Some time ago a similar thing took place, and the attention of the Secretary of State was called to it in the other House, who promised that the matter should be looked into, and the recurrence of such a circumstance be prevented. He recollected when he was quartered at Sligo some years ago, an execution took place there from a lofty scaffold, when the rope broke, and the man fell to the ground and broke both his legs; he was, however, picked up and carried up to the scaffold, and was then executed. There was, perhaps, no means of preventing this, as the sentence of the law was specific for his execution; but common attention could prevent the extension of
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the sufferings of the party to be executed. If the punishment of death must be inflicted, he would recommend that they should adopt the mode used in Germany, or the garotte, as in Spain.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas not aware of the circumstances of the case which had appeared in the newspapers; but he was sure that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department would cause inquiry to be made into the matter. While he considered, in the present circumstances of the country, that the punishment of death was indispensable for certain aggravated crimes, he felt that the punishment should be effected in such a way as not to cause unnecessary suffering, or to outrage public feeling.
House adjourned.