Lords Sitting of 31 March 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a. and passed. Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Committee of a Dispensary in the City of Dublin, and from Physicians and
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Surgeons of the county of Armagh, for the Better Regulation and more Efficient Support of Medical Charities (Ireland).

RAILWAY AND STEAM PACKET STATIONS (IRELAND).
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEpresented a petition from the grand jury of the county of Kerry, praying their Lordships to give their most attentive consideration to the various lines of railway now projected throughout Ireland, and more especially to such as were intended to be constructed in that county. The noble Marquess took occasion to inquire of his noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty (Lord Ellenborough) whether any consideration had been devoted or was intended to be directed by the department over which that noble Lord presided, to a matter which might be said to be connected in some degree with the subject of railways in Ireland, and which, at all events, possessed much interest for the Irish people. It was notorious that from time to time surveyors had been ordered, under the direction of Government, to take surveys upon the south-west coast of Ireland, in order to ascertain upon what part of that coast a packet station, or a military station, or both, might be most advantageously established, with a view to correspondence across the Atlantic, or the better security of the country. He was most desirous to avoid expressing any opinion whatever as to the expediency or inexpediency of undertaking any such works; that was a question which must rest upon military and naval grounds. Of the first the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Wellington) was the best judge; and with respect to the latter, there were many persons whose opinions on the subject would be much more valuable than his (the Marquess of Lansdowne's); but what he wished to impress upon their Lordships was this, that if any design of the kind was indeed entertained by the Government, it was highly desirable that they (the Government) should make up their minds at once as to the exact place where it was proposed to establish the station or stations, and notify the same to the public with as little delay as possible. There ought to be some understanding with the Government with a view to see how the public interest might be promoted. It was due to capitalists and to the public in general, that this should be done, for it might prevent unnecessary expenditure or other inconvenience.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that the subject had not been recently brought before the Admiralty. The choice of a packet station rested with the Treasury and not with the Admiralty: the Admiralty were only applied to in such a case, for the opinion of professional men, as to the eligibility of such and such a point for a packet station. It was not very probable that a packet station would be established either at Valentia or Bantry Harbour; if any such station were to be established at all on the Irish coast, it was likely that the site would be at Cork, which was more advantageously circumstanced than either of the other places.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that he had given notice of his intention to bring forward a Motion for an Address to Her Majesty on the subject of the New Houses of Parliament. The Address would be based upon the Report of the Committee, of which document in fact it would be the echo. The only point of exception which could be taken to the Resolution of which he had given notice, was, perhaps, that the Committee had not as yet reported or printed the evidence which had been adduced before them; but to this objection he did not attach much importance, for the circumstances of the case were so notorious, and the facts which had been printed last year must be still so fresh in the remembrance of their Lordships, that he did not think there could be any grounds for their withholding their assent to the proposition he was about to submit on the plea of want of sufficient information. However, if their Lordships should be of a different opinion, and should desire to look narrowly into the evidence before they determined upon taking any decisive step, the discussion on the Address might be taken to-night, though the decision on the Motion might be adjourned until such time as the evidence could be laid before them.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONwas decidedly of opinion that it would be well to adjourn at least the decision on the Motion until a future day, in order to see what course of proceeding was likely to find favour in another place. As both Houses of Parliament were equally interested in this matter, it would be well if an opportunity for conference were afforded, so that they might agree as to the plan of proceeding for the future. Not only should a
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plan of proceeding be agreed on by both Houses of Parliament, but the form of that plan should be settled, and the Government should have the satisfaction of knowing that they were acting under the authority of both Houses.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that with the permission of their Lordships he would proceed with his Motion for an Address to the Crown; for he did not think that it was essentially necessary that the evidence should be reported and printed before the Resolution could be carried. If the course of proceeding to which he was about to urge their Lordships were one which could at all interfere with the business or the privileges of the other House of Parliament, it would of course be highly desirable that a conference should take place between both Houses before any step was taken; but he begged of their Lordships to remember that the House of Commons was not interested nor concerned in the present Motion. The Report of the Committee and the Address which he proposed to base upon that Report, and which was an echo of that Report, had an exclusive reference to their Lordships' House. It was a matter of fact of which their Lordships could not but be cognizant, that the Board of Works had been incorporated, he believed, by Act of Parliament some years ago with the Woods and Forests; and he was anxious that through the instrumentality of an Address to the Crown, the attention and exertions of this consolidated department of the public service, whose peculiar province it was to supervise such great public works, should be directed to the purpose of seeing that the new House intended for the accommodation of their Lordships should be completed with as little delay as possible. Their Lordships might not perhaps be aware—and yet the fact was so—that for the last nine months the works necessary for the erection of the House of Lords had been completely at a standstill. The Committee had stated in their Report that for the last nine months or more there positively had been no advance made towards the completion of the House designed for their Lordships, notwithstanding that they had repeatedly expressed their impatience to get into it. The fact was, as they (the Committee) had been informed, some difference of opinion had unhappily arisen between the architect and the scientific gentleman to whom the duty of ventilating the new building had been confided, and the consequence of this difference had

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been a total suspension of the works. The Committee were unable to apply any remedy; they could not settle the difference, nor was it competent for them to issue final orders, for their duty was not to supervise the works, but merely to watch their progress, and to report upon it. In this perplexing state of affairs a necessity had clearly arisen for the intervention of a supreme authority—that of the Queen herself, whose palace the new edifice was. This supreme authority should be appealed to, not for the purpose of deciding whether Mr. Barry or Dr. Reid was right, but in order that both gentlemen might be compelled to comply with the covenant to which they were bound by oath, and take immediate steps towards the completion of the works, so that the House might be ready for their Lordships' reception by the next Session. If the aid of the Woods and Forests department were not now called in by means of an appeal to the supreme authority, there was no knowing when their Lordships would get access to their new House. The noble Marquess, in conclusion, disclaimed all intention of casting the slightest censure on the noble Lords who were connected with the Woods and Forests. He was sure that they had always been anxious to discharge their duties in the most efficient manner; but something must be done, and the Committee being of opinion that nothing could remedy the present state of things but the intervention of a strong supreme power, had authorized him to bring forward this Motion. The noble Marquess then read the Address, and concluded by moving its adoption.
The LORD CHANCELLORhaving put the question,
VISCOUNT CANNINGobserved that there were several considerations which induced him to oppose the Motion. In the first place, their Lordships were not in possession of the evidence upon which the Report was based, of which this Address was said to be the echo. The Report itself had been only laid upon the Table last night; but one particle of the evidence had not yet been printed. One passage in the Report of the Committee might be construed into an imputation upon a department of the Government of not having done what was in their power; and upon that account it was but fair that the evidence should be seen by their Lordships before they agreed to the proposed Address. Also a Committee of the other House was now sitting upon the same subject, and that
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House might think proper to embody their views in an Address founded upon the Report of their Committee. Having been favoured with a sight of that Report, he knew that, in one respect, it ran counter to the Report of their Lordships' Committee; and thus, if their Lordships agreed to an Address now, it might happen that contradictory Addresses were presented to the Queen by the two Houses.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the facts were so perfectly notorious as not to require the publication of evidence, Without imputing any blame to the Woods and Forests, he might say that there had appeared on the part of that department, since the appointment of their Lordships' Committee, a leaning rather to support Mr. Barry in his delay than to expedite him.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, although agreeing that the facts of the case were notorious, yet submitted whether it might not be expedient to adjourn the discussion until the evidence should appear; and by that time they would be in possession of the proceedings in the other House of Parliament. He conceived that there should be an opportunity of declaring that the grand object of their Lordships being properly lodged should not give way to any disputes between parties, or to any Utopian schemes of improvement. An Address to the Crown would render it apparent that the Woods and Forests were responsible for the execution of the works.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONsaid, it had been truly stated that it was the palace of the Sovereign that was under discussion, and that the Government was therefore responsible for all that concerned it; but even were it not so, the importance of the matter and the enormous expenses that had been incurred upon the building, must make the Government responsible for all that related to it. It was true that responsibility had been to a certain degree covered or limited by the nomination of Committees of both Houses of Parliament to attend to the proceedings; but now it appeared to be desired by that House, and by the other House too, so far as he could judge from the Reports of their Committee, that the Board of Woods and Forests, as the responsible board for the management of affairs of this kind, should undertake an active supervision over the persons engaged in completing the building. Undoubtedly the Government must be most anxious to carry that wish into execution,

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by giving positive instructions to the Board in respect to the mode in which they were to carry this supervision into effect, and also to direct such details as might appear to be consistent with the wishes expressed by the two Houses of Parliament. But he begged their Lordships not to involve the Government in difficulty by presenting to the Queen two separate Addresses from the two Houses of Parliament, by agreeing to an Address without knowing what was passing in the Committee of the other House. He concurred in the wish expressed by the noble Marquess that the discussion should be adjourned, in order to see what were the views of the other House; and if the two Houses concurred, that there should be such a supervision of the works as would be effectual.
LORD CAMPBELLthought no case had been shown to justify the notion that the House had improperly interfered in this matter. He was ready to agree to the proposal for potponing the discussion until they should see the evidence and the Report of the House of Commons; but he trusted that the two Houses would act concurrently. He was sure any recommendation they might make would meet with proper attention on the part of the Government, and that before long their wishes would be fully satisfied.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, after what had fallen from the noble Duke, he should move that the debate be adjourned. He would make no attempt to resume it till the evidence was printed, and the holidays had passed over.
Debate adjourned.
House adjourned.