Lords Sitting of 17 March 1846

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Campbell, from Wardens and Commonalty of the Mystery of Fishmongers of the City of London, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.—From Inhabitants of the Town and Parish of Dungannon, for Alteration of the Poor Law (Ireland).—From Monmouth, in favour of the Corn Laws.

THE OREGON NEGOTIATIONS.
The EARL of CLARENDON: In pursuance of the notice I gave yesterday, I now beg leave to move for the production of such correspondence between my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and Her Majesty's Minister at Washington, respecting the Oregon territory question, as my noble Friend may not think it inconsistent with his duty to lay on the Table; and I think it will be quite unnecessary for me, in so doing, to assure your Lordships that it is the furthest possible from my intention to wish either to embarrass Her Majesty's Government, or to press for the premature disclosure of any information, or in any way to interfere with any negotiations which I trust may be still in progress. But, my Lords, when we consider the magnitude of the interests involved in the solution, whether by peace

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or war, of the question now in dispute between this country and the United States—when we consider the deep anxiety with which intelligence from the other side of the Atlantic is looked for here, and the influence which it necessarily exercises upon commercial and financial affairs, I think it is important that we should not be altogether dependent upon American newspapers for such information as may have been produced to the Congress respecting the actual state of affairs in this transaction. For many weeks, and almost up to the present time, this question has been debated in Congress; while in Parliament, which has been now sitting for nearly two months, no allusion even has been made to it, except by my noble Friend the noble Marquess (Marquess of Lansdowne), and by my noble and learned Friend near me (Lord Brougham) on the first night of the Session; and also, I believe, on one single occasion in the House of Commons. My Lords, I think this silence has been well judged and becoming. I think that it has exhibited in both Houses of Parliament a prudent determination to leave the Government completely unfettered in its action, not to interfere in those negotiations, for which Parliament cannot be properly responsible, nor to aggravate angry feeling by unnecessary discussion. This course has been well understood and appreciated at home; but abroad it is liable to misconstruction, and it has been misconstrued. I think it is our duty to guard ourselves against the notion, that we are so determined upon peace, that we are indifferent to all preparations for war; and I think it best to guard ourselves against the suspicion, on the part of any other country, that we would submit to a peace purchased by concessions which are incompatible with national honour. But your Lordships will bear in mind, that although the language of the two Governments, as far as we are acquainted with it, has been inspired by pacific sentiments; and although the information which reaches us from America is of the same character, yet we cannot diguise from ourselves that the two countries appear to be gradually, but involuntarily, drifting towards war. I think, therefore, that the time is come when my noble Friend may, without indiscretion, be asked to lay upon your Lordships' Table such correspondence, or to furnish the House with such information, as it may not be for the public interest to withhold. My Lords, we have learned from the American
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newspapers that some time since the negotiations were suspended, and all proceedings put an end to. It is the furthest from my intention to impute any blame to our Representative at Washington; for I believe that British interests cannot be confided to a Minister more competent, enlightened, and conciliatory than Mr. Pakenham; and I will not doubt, therefore, although we are not acquainted with them, that the reasons which influenced him to decline forwarding to my noble Friend the proposal of the American Government, have been consistent with this character. But of this I am sure, that my noble Friend, in instructing Mr. Pakenham to renew those negotiations, faithfully represented the opinions and fulfilled the wishes of the people of this country. My noble Friend, in departing from the ordinary course of diplomacy, and desiring that the question of title as well as that of territorial division should be submitted to any Sovereign or Government, or any competent individuals of either country, pursued what was in my opinion a most judicious and well-considered course. For, my Lords, we have thereby given the best proof to the world that we have advanced no claim in the justice of which we do not ourselves confide; and we have given proof that however confident we ourselves may be of the validity of our own claims, yet so little desirous are we of obstinately adhering to them, that we are anxious that our whole case should be submitted to any impartial tribunal, and are ready to abide by its decision. I think this course places us in a proper condition; and I say it was a necessary one, because the people of this country will not consent to engage in war until they are satisfied that every step necessary to maintain peace has been exhausted. They will not themselves endure, nor will they inflict, on the United States the disastrous consequences of a contest so unnatural and unnecessary, until they are convinced that there exists on the part of the United States a determination to injure and insult us. Should that unhappily prove to be the case, national feeling would be aroused, and Her Majesty's Government, I am convinced, might securely reckon on the cordial, firm, and unflinching support of all classes in defence of our rights and vindication of our honour. But, my Lords, that there should be any such determination on the part of the United States appears to me little less than a moral impossibility; for I really believe that in the

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annals of history there will not be found a record of any event equally wicked and disgraceful as that of two nations mutually dependent upon each other, bound together by the strictest ties of reciprocal feeling—owing to the determined refusal by one of any peaceful offer made by the other—going to war for the possession of an unoccupied territory, the whole fee-simple of which is well known to be of such insignificant value as not to compensate the losses and miseries that one single month of war must produce. It is true there does exist in the United States a party so reckless as to be ready to engage in war—true it is that by this party we have been rudely assailed—that our claims have been repudiated, and our whole policy misrepresented; but I must say I think that for this party great allowance must be made, and we must not be too prone to take offence at what may be attributed to the peculiar institutions of the United States—to the immediate influence of the popular will, and the electioneering habits of public men in America—motives of action with which we ourselves are always more or less familiar at home. But that this party should faithfully represent the opinions and wishes of the great and enlightened majority of the people of the United States, does, I must say, seem to me a moral impossibility. I cannot believe that in a country whose state of civilization is equal to our own—in a country where statesmen are to be found as sagacious and enlightened as any in the world—where wealth and knowledge are as widely diffused as in England—where they must assert the same power and confer the same advantages—and where, as among ourselves, morality and religion exercise the same degree of influence—in such a country, I cannot believe that such intentions can prevail, or that the people and Government of the United States would rush into a war without any just cause, and that, at the moment when America, of all countries in the world, will be the foremost and largest partaker in that enlightened system of commerce which we, for our own welfare, and without reference to other nations, were about to adopt—and the intelligence of which, I understand, has been read in America with all the satisfaction it was calculated to excite. I think on the present occasion it is quite unnecessary for me to do more than move for the production of such correspondence as can be produced consistently with regard to the public service;
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and also to inquire of my noble Friend what course the Government propose to adopt in the event of the Senate of the United States concurring in the Resolution to give the twelve months' notice, although I will venture to express a hope that such notice, so far from being received as a hostile declaration, may be viewed by us simply as a determination on the part of the American people, that the whole question shall be settled within a twelvemonth, but in a manner satisfactory to the honour and interest of both countries, and therefore calculated to render more enduring those friendly relations which have hither to subsisted between them, and which in their mutual influence, I trust, will never be dissolved. The noble Earl concluded by moving—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that there be laid before this House a Copy of so much of the Correspondence between Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and Her Majesty's Minister at Washington, respecting the Oregon Territory, as can be produced without Injury to Her Majesty's Service."
The EARL of ABERDEEN: In the present very delicate and critical state of this negotiation, it may perhaps appear to your Lordships that I should have acted with more prudence if I had declined to enter upon the topic; but however this may be, I was quite certain that in the case of my noble Friend, his sense of propriety, and his intimate knowledge of the great interests involved, would prevent him from adding anything to the difficulties with which this subject is already environed; and I will likewise say that his own private feelings would indispose him to make it the subject of any personal embarrassment. This expectation has been fully realized by the statement he has made. I think the desire expressed by my noble Friend is perfectly natural and perfectly reasonable. It is quite natural that when we receive from time to time from the United States information and documents of the highest interest and importance, affecting us in such a manner as this transaction must do—it is perfectly natural that your Lordships and the public should desire to receive from the Government of this country authentic information respecting these transactions, accompanied by such documents as it may be safe and proper to produce. I therefore declare that I know of no valid valid reason to object to the production of the Papers for which my noble Friend has asked, especially as the greater proportion of them must be already well known to your Lordships and the public.

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But I must reserve to myself the discretion of, for the present, suppressing a large portion of that correspondence which has taken place between Her Majesty's Ministers and myself, the production of which just at the present present moment would, I think, be likely to lead to injurious consequences. I will say that I should not have been disposed voluntarily to have laid on the Table any such information as I am now called upon to produce. In the first place, it is quite unusual in the midst of negotiations of this magnitude, without any special object in view, to produce to Parliament an account of the particular position in which we find ourselves at this moment. It is true that the United States have acted differently, but their situation is quite different from ours. The Executive Government of the United States have to call upon the Legislature to take a direct course on this subject. The President proposed to the American Legislature a certain measure, to which he required their assent, and of course he was under the necessity of furnishing them with the materials on which to form their opinion in coming to a conclusion on the message so addressed; but this was not the case with us. Her Majesty's Government have no intention of calling on Parliament at this moment for any opinion, nor do I understand that it is the intention of my noble Friend, or any other Member of this House, at present to call on Parliament to pronounce its opinion upon what has happened in the course of this transaction. This, therefore, would have indisposed me voluntarily to have laid any information on the Table at the present moment; and another reason would also have made me unwilling to do so; for I must admit, that from the aspect of the negotiation, as represented in the Papers produced in the United States, and which I am in a condition to produce to your Lordships, an inference might fairly be drawn not favourable to the probable future result of that negotiation. From some of those Papers auguries unfavourable to the success of the negotiation might be drawn; and I should be indisposed, therefore, to submit to the House, at the stage of the negotiation at which we have now arrived, communications calculated to place it in such a light. I say, that such an opinion it would not be unnatural to form, but it is my decided conviction that it would be unwarranted and groundless. I cannot bring myself to believe—however the effect produced by
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the Papers to which I have referred may be as I have described—I cannot bring myself to believe that any reasonable doubt can remain of our being able to bring this matter to a satisfactory termination. I have no doubt of the sincere desire of both Governments to arrive at this result; and I hope that my noble Friend will not think me guilty of any uncourteous conduct if I decline to inform him of the steps which, in the present juncture of affairs, Her Majesty's Government may think proper to take. He may depend on it, that believing as I do that war is the greatest calamity that can befall a nation, and thinking also that it is generally the greatest crime a nation can commit, he may rely on it that every effort to avert this national calamity will be employed. It would be presumptuous in me to pretend any claim to your Lordship's confidence beyond that which I may fairly prefer as a Minister of the Crown; but if I might be allowed to express a hope, it would be that the conduct of this transaction shall be forbearing, conciliatory, moderate, and just, without producing any sacrifice, I confidently trust, of honour or real interest. My Lords, after all, it is certainly possible that our efforts may prove fruitless. In this case I can only say that it will be my endeavour not only to secure the confidence and support of every one of your Lordships, but to secure the approbation also of every state in Europe, and of the whole civilized world. My Lords, I think my noble Friend will perhaps not expect me to go farther into this subject at present; and I will only conclude the few words I have said, by repeating emphatically what Her Majesty has already been graciously pleased to say from the Throne, that no effort will be spared, consistently with national honour, to bring this question to an early and peaceful termination.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to take this opportunity of saying that he had received a letter from a worthy and most able Friend of his (Mr. Everett), late Minister for the United States, than whom there never was any person amongst all the Ministers of that country who more admirably discharged the duties of his high office. Mr. Everett was stated by him (Lord Brougham) at an earlier period of this Session to have purchased a globe marked with red ink, on which there was a line drawn favourable to the American pretensions, and adverse to ours. This

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globe had been appealed to by a person in high office in America, as turning the balance in favour of their claim, and he thought it his duty, being in possession of the fact, to state publicly here that it was not wonderful the globe should be favourable to them, inasmuch as an alteration had been made in it after the order for its purchase had been given by the American Minister. In fact, this was done by the tradesman for the purpose of paying a compliment to the purchaser; and he ventured to say that his honourable and distinguished Friend Mr. Everett had no hand in, nor even been privy to, the artifice. Mr. Everett now said, in confirmation of his statement, that he had had no personal communication whatever with the globe-maker, but had given the order through another person. I can only add (pursued the noble and learned Lord) on the subject of the statements made by my noble Friends, that I join my hearty wishes with theirs, and express my confident hope that all those negotiations, thorny and troublesome as they now seem, will lead to a happy issue. And should, unhappily for us, unhappily for America, and unhappily for the whole human race, these so just expectations he frustrated, then all mankind will find that no blame can be imputed to, or, at all events, rest upon us; and, moreover, that if the calamity of war shall be precipitated on us, looked on though it be now by all the subjects of the Crown with the utmost possible aversion, it will, in such an event, be looked on by none with apprehension or alarm.
LORD ASHBURTON: Nobody is more willing than I am to admit that negotiations of the descriptions alluded to should be conducted with all possible prudence and caution; and that every precaution should be taken that the honour of the country shall in no respect be tarnished. I also perfectly concur in the opinion that the possibility of two countries in the state of civilization of America and this country, having the madness to become involved in war for a question worthless in itself, and for nothing but a mere question of honour, is an alternative which, whatever be the unfortunate expressions used by individuals, yet I, for one, relying on the sterling good sense which is the characteristic of these two countries above all others, cannot for a moment contemplate as likely to occur. Nothing is more absurd than to suppose that either country should enter on these negotiations, with a view to gain any particular
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advantage, or on the supposition that either has undisputed rights; for it is impossible to deny that both States have pretensions to the territory in dispute, and that the only question is how the disputed claims can be settled in a manner which any reasonable man shall say is a reasonable settlement. I think Europe and the world have a right to expect from us and from them that such should be the principle on which our negotiations proceed; and I am sure that on our parts they cannot be in safer hands than in those of my noble Friend (Earl of Aberdeen). I hope I may add, from my own experience, and from my knowledge of the feelings of the people of that country, my confident belief that these negotiations will be brought at last to a safe and honourable conclusion.
The Address was then agreed to.

THE BELLEROPHON AND RODNEY.
The EARL of WILTONcalled the attention of the House to the extraordinary rapidity with which the above ships, from being totally unrigged, were lately fitted out for sea. In two days and a half they were fitted out, even to heavy ordnance and all sorts of provisions, for whatever service they might be required for. Nothing was more calculated to show the nations of Europe what our navy was capable of, in the event of our being forced to engage in the greatest of calamities, war.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHbore testimony to the truth of the description given of the energy and skill of the crews of those vessels.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEremarked, that it would be better to make such an experiment as that alluded to on a ship in commission, than on one which had immediately to be unrigged, after having been fitted out for sea in the manner described.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: This experiment was merely resorted to for the purpose of seeing in how short a time advance ships could be fitted out for sea. The experiment, he need not say, was perfectly satisfactory, though it was unnecessary to put the ships alluded to in commission.
The EARL of WILTONhad merely alluded to the experiment as a great feat on the part of the captains, officers, and crews of the ships which had been named.
Their Lordships then adjourned to Thursday.