§ EARL STANHOPEsaid, that before their Lordships went into Committee again upon the Corn Importation Bill, he wished to put a question to his noble Friend the President of the Board of Control. He was anxious to learn from his noble Friend whether he expected that the effect of their Corn Bill would be to raise the prices of corn, to leave them where they were, or to depress them?
§ The EARL of RIPONreplied, that the 542 question which the noble Earl had just put to him, was one which, if he mistook not, had already been put to his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade in the course of the debates upon that measure. His noble Friend had given an answer to that question; and to that answer he (Lord Ripon) was also disposed to adhere, viz., that it was not possible for any man to give such an answer to such a question as should be satisfactory. The seasons would, he apprehended, operate upon prices under this Bill just as they had under former Bills relating to the same subject; and, looking at the prices at which corn had ranged under former Corn Bills, he saw there had been nothing but extreme fluctuations in them. He could not help thinking, however, that if any of those who had recommended those Bills to the adoption of Parliament had been called upon at the time to state what would be the prices of corn under their measures, no answer would or could have been given to such questions; or if they had been, the statements of those who gave them would have been falsified by the results. He would not himself, therefore, undertake, any more than they had done in regard to their measures, to prophesy with respect to what would be the prices of corn under this Bill.
§ EARL STANHOPEsaid, he did not ask the Government to say what would be the price in any one year—all he wished to know was, what would be the price on an average of any number of years—whether the price of corn, in short, would be higher or lower under the operation of this Bill. Not having had an answer to his question, he would only say that it was apparent to their Lordships, and it ought to be made known to the country, that Her Majesty's Government were bringing this measure forward without any knowledge of the question whatever.
The EARL of WINCHILSEAmust say, that he considered the answer which the noble Earl had given to his noble Friend to be most unsatisfactory.
§ The DUKE of RICHMONDsaid, that if the noble Earl the President of the Board of Control would not answer the question which had been put to him by his noble Friend, he (the Duke of Richmond) would answer it for him. If their Lordships would turn to a despatch which had lately been written by Mr. Secretary Gladstone to the Governor General of Canada, they 543 would find that Mr. Gladstone stated that, whilst he did not presume to anticipate what were likely to be the precise limits of the ruling prices of corn after this Bill should have passed, yet that the most competent persons did not think that there would be any reduction below what had been the prices of the last three years, 1843, 1844, and 1845. Now, this was the opinion of a Member of Parliament, and a Cabinet Minister, upon this question of price; and he could not but think that this despatch must have some weight with their Lordships, and the more so from the publicity which had been given to the document, for it was not often in this country that a Secretary of State wrote a despatch to the Governor of a Colony, and then published it in a newspaper before the Governor could have seen it. And, my Lords (said the noble Duke), if I was the Governor General of Canada, I should feel somewhat indignant in reading my instructions for the first time in a public paper.
§ EARL STANHOPEagain rose, and said he must beg to be allowed to ask another question of the noble Earl (Earl Ripon). He wished to be informed whether the intention of the Government was by this Bill to raise prices, to lower them, or to leave them where they were? The noble Earl need not surely be under the necessity of going into any very abstruse calculation in order to answer a question so simple as that, as it was merely what the Government intended that he wished to be informed of. If the great autocrat of the Government would condescend to communicate to the Cabinet what was his intention as to prices under this measure, or if he had communicated it, he did trust that the noble Earl would tell them what it was.
§ The EARL of RIPONsaid, the question of the noble Earl appeared to him to be pretty much the same as his former one, and he could, therefore, give him no other answer than he had already given.
§ EARL STANHOPEretorted, that they could only judge of the intentions of the Government from their suspicious silence.
§ The EARL of RIPONobserved, that he objected to the noble Earl using such words as "suspicious silence." What right had the noble Earl to term their silence "suspicious?" He (Lord Ripon) acted from a sense of his duty, and he would not submit to imputations of this kind.
§ EARL STANHOPEsaid, that he had not meant to say anything offensive to the noble Earl; but he must say, that when 544 silence was observed by the Government on a subject of such importance, it did cause a suspicion in the country as to their motives and intentions; and it was in that sense, and in that sense only, that he used the words which had been complained of.
§ EARL GREYsaid, that though the Government, in the exercise of their discretion, had thought proper not to answer the question which had been put to them with respect to their intention in regard to the range of prices under this Bill, he hoped he (Earl Grey) might be permitted, as a humble supporter of the measure, to state his own views as to what was the object of it in that respect. He apprehended that the object of this measure was, not to secure 80s. a quarter for wheat, as was the professed object of the Bill of 1815—not 60s., as was calculated upon by the promoters of the measure of 1828—not to obtain 55s. as was expected under the Bill of 1842—but to secure to the country a sufficiency of corn at a natural price, be that price what it might.
The EARL of STRADBROKEsaid, he had merely risen to protest against what the noble Earl (Earl Grey) on the Opposition benches had stated to have been the professed object of the existing Corn Law, and of the previous Acts. The intention of those measures had not been, as the noble Earl had stated, to secure 80s. in 1815, or 60s. in 1828, or 55s. in 1842, but only to protect the agriculturist of this country against foreign competition.
§ The EARL of RIPONhere moved the Order of the Day; and House in Committee accordingly.