Lords Sitting of 5 June 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Corresponding Societies and Lecture Rooms.
Reported. Viscount Hardinge's Annuity (No. 2).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Bishop of Durham, from Roewen, and other places, for the Better Observance of, and for the Prevention of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on, the Sabbath.—From Dundee, and several other places, in favour of the Corn Importation Bill and Customs Duties Bill.—By the Bishop of London, from Ministers of Parishes on the Eastern Counties Line, for the Adoption of a Measure to prevent the Running of Trains on the Sabbath.—From Syderstone, Grimstone, and Great Massingham, against Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—By Lord Ashburton and the Duke of Richmond, from Bromptom Abbotts, and Ross, for Repeal of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act, so far as respects the Building and Maintaining County Lunatic Asylums.—From Bangor, and several other places, against the Proposed Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.—From the Thetford Auxiliary Religious Tract Society, for Exemption from the Operation of the Charitable Trusts Bill.

RAILWAY TRAVELLING ON SUNDAY.
The BISHOP of LONDONpresented a petition from the Clergymen of Parishes on the line of the Eastern Counties Railway against railway travelling on Sunday. The right rev. Prelate stated, that the petition complained heavily of the great number of persons carried along this line on the Sabbath, and instancing Easter Sunday last, when crowds of people were conveyed for the purpose of attending the Newmarket meeting on the following day, on which occasion a dreadful accident occurred on the railway. For some years,
28
when he was minister of a parish in that part of the country, much annoyance was caused by the assembling of people in the immediate neighbourhood of his church to see the carriages of the great people who passed that way, and who were frequently seen adding to the desecration of the Sabbath of which they were guilty by playing at cards, to the great injury of the feelings of the religiously disposed. By his remonstrances, however, with influential persons, this evil was, in a great measure, removed; but it now seemed to be revived with increased intensity since the establishment of the railway and the running of trains on that day. He hoped their Lordships would interfere to check this evil, and to restrict railway traffic as much as possible to the necessities of commerce.
EARL FITZWILLIAMconcurred with the right rev. Prelate in the hope that this evil would be checked. He was aware of the efforts which he had put forth for the suppression of the improper behaviour on Sundays, to which he had alluded, many years ago, and of the success which on that occasion attended his application to a high personage and the members of the Jockey Club for that object; and he thought him entitled to the gratitude of their Lordships for having moved so energetically in the matter. In one thing he differed from the right rev. Prelate. He thought there should be no commercial traffic on railways on Sundays; that there should be no kind of traffic permitted which had gain in view. It might be matter of consideration with their Lordships whether it would be advisable to interfere with railway traffic so far as it related to the conveyance of passengers; but he had no doubt whatever that it was the duty of Parliament to stop all commercial traffic. The necessities of commerce meant nothing more than the necessities of filling our pockets.
The BISHOP of LONDONexplained, that the reason why he did not press for the abolition of commercial traffic, to which he was no doubt disposed, was, that a few years ago, when he opposed commercial traffic on Sunday, he was informed by noble Lords that to enforce such a thing would put a stop to the whole trade of the country.
LORD BROUGHAMthought it was impossible to draw a distinction between travelling for gain and merely travelling for recreation.
LORD CAMPBELLwas in favour of goods traffic being stopped on Sunday, but

29
thought allowance ought to be made for the conveyance of passengers.
LORD BROUGHAMhad a case in point which had just come to his recollection. The Bank of England was saved from insolvency, after the directors had sat from nine till twelve o'clock on Saturday night waiting for the means of relief, by the arrival of a large amount of money next day, being the Sabbath.
The matter then dropped.

VISCOUNT HARDINGE AND LORD GOUGH'S ANNUITIES BILLS.
The EARL of RIPON, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee on Viscount Hardinge's Annuity Bill, briefly explained its provisions, and those of Lord Gough's Annuity Bill. The grounds for the grants it was needless to state after the brilliant services of both noble Lords had been so recently detailed to the House. The chief point to be mentioned was, that on account of the generosity of the East India Company in granting life annuities to them, the Bills provided that the whole of Viscount Hardinge's annuity to be granted by this Bill, and one-half of Lord Gough's, should respectively cease to be payable so long as the annuities granted by the Company to them respectively should be paid.
LORD MONTEAGLEconsidered these Bills to contain a provision which was unjust and unbecoming, and likely in future to be dangerous to the public service, and detrimental to the public interests; he alluded to the clause just adverted to, suspending the grateful benevolence of the State in consequence of the expressed gratitude of the East India Company. This was teaching the Company a lesson which, as men of sense and discretion, they would doubtless learn—that in satisfying their own feeling of gratitude they were but causing a pitiful saving to the public Exchequer. Would any Minister have proposed to treat Nelson so, because he had been rewarded by the Neapolitan Government with the Dukedom of Bronte? Whatever other noble Lords might feel upon the subject, he (Lord Monteagle) must say that he felt it to be a reproach to the Government thus to curtail and limit their gift, and say that because the Company were liberal and grateful, the liberality and gratitude of the country should be restricted and abridged by that which, in truth, was but an additional proof of the claim of these distinguished men upon the nation.
The DUKE of RICHMONDconcurred in what had fallen from the noble Lord, and he trusted that the noble Lord would in Committee give the House an opportunity of recording its vote on the subject. He thought that the proposed proceeding was shabby and mean. He was as anxious as any man to curtail the expenditure of the country as far as possible, but he was not prepared to give his sanction to what he conceived to be wrong in principle and shabby in practice.
The EARL of RIPONwas not surprised at the feeling which had been expressed, and certainly no generous man could be suspected of a wish to deprive either Lord Hardinge or Lord Gough of any portion of the rewards which they had earned; but he must take the liberty of saying that the motive of the Government in proposing the limitation was not the mere saving of 3,000 l. a year in the one case, and 1,000 l. a year in the other, but was founded upon a fair consideration of what had occurred in former, and might occur in subsequent cases of this description. He was far from intending to disparage the gallant actions which had been performed; but Government were obliged to look at these services not as their feelings might dictate, but from views of what had been done before, and what might be done hereafter.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEagreed with his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) in thinking that the full amount voted by Parliament ought to be secured to Lord Hardinge and Lord Gough, notwithstanding the grant made by the East India Company. He did not know how far that House might amend a Money Bill, but he hoped that his noble Friend would be able to make some proposition in Committee which would have that effect.
The EARL of WICKLOWthought it would be desirable to postpone the Bill, in order to give the noble Lord (Lord Ripon) an opportunity of producing some precedent for it. He should prefer rejecting it to passing it in its present shape. Such a course would be attended with no inconvenience; for, no doubt, another measure, in conformity with the universal feeling of that House, would then be introduced in the other House, during the present Session.
The EARL of RIPONobserved, that there was no necessity to postpone the Bill for the purpose suggested by the noble Earl, because there was no precedent of a Minister of the Crown having called on

31
Parliament to grant anything to a Governor General of India.
The EARL of GALLOWAYsaid, that the Sovereign, having conferred dignities and titles on these two distinguished men as a reward for their services, it next became the country to consider what would put them in a position befitting their new rank. But it appeared that the East India Company had already made a grant to them greater than that which the Parliament, according to this Bill, thought necessary for the purpose. Therefore the object in view was attained, and he thought that the course taken by the Government was right and prudent.
The House then resolved into Committee on the Bill.
The DUKE of RICHMONDmoved, by way of Amendment, the omission of the third clause, which suspends the grant made by the country during the payment of the grant made by the East India Company.
The EARL of RIPONreminded their Lordships that the omission of the clause would be the loss of the Bill; adding, that the Bill did what the East India Company could not, viz., it continued the grant of 3,000 l. a-year to the two next heirs of Lord Hardinge.
The DUKE of RICHMONDsaid, that if the House of Commons considered this a Money Bill, and would not accept it altered, nothing could be more easy than for them to introduce a new Bill immediately. If he were to go out shooting with the noble Earl (Ripon), and were to give his gamekeeper a pound, would the noble Earl deduct that pound from his gamekeeper's wages?
The EARL of RIPONsaid, that if the noble Duke came to shoot with him, he would take care that he did not give his gamekeeper a pound.
LORD MONTEAGLEsupported the Amendment. Supposing that the pension had been granted by Parliament, and that subsequently the East India Company had granted an annuity, would any one then have proposed to bring in a Bill to suspend the payment of the pension?
The EARL of ST. GERMANSheld the proposed grant to be for the purpose of maintaining the dignity conferred by the Crown; and if Lords Hardinge and Gough had been men of large property, the Government would not have thought themselves justified in calling on Parliament to make a grant for the maintenance of the
32
titles which were the reward of their services. The object in view, the maintenance of the conferred dignities, was, however, already attained by the grant of the East India Company.
The Committee then divided:—Contents 26; Non-contents 38: Majority for the Amendment 12.
House resumed. Bill reported with Amendments. Report to be considered on Monday next.
House in Committee on Lord Gough's Annuity Bill.
The DUKE of RICHMONDsaid he did not see any reason for making a distinction between the cases of Viscount Hardinge and Lord Gough; and he would therefore move that the third clause in this Bill, which was to the same effect as that just expunged from Lord Hardinge's Bill, be omitted.
The EARL of RIPONwould not give their Lordships the trouble of dividing upon this Amendment; for he could not conceive that they were likely to adopt a different principle with respect to Lord Gough to that which they had just sanctioned in the case of Lord Hardinge.
The CHAIRMANthen put the Question, and declared the "Non-contents" to have it. The clause was therefore omitted.
House resumed. Bill reported.

RAILWAY LEGISLATION.
EARL FITZWILLIAMrose for the purpose of introducing the Resolutions on the subject of railway legislation of which he had given notice. The noble Earl said that their Lordships were aware of the difficulties which had been at an earlier period of the Session anticipated from the number of railway projects which were about to be brought forward, and the means which had been adopted with a view to prevent them. The number of railway companies dissolved, in accordance with the powers which were given to the companies by the measure that Parliament had agreed to, was exceedingly small—so small as to be capable of creating no diminution of the pressure on the money market; and it was therefore to be desired that their Lordships should adopt some other course, calculated to obviate the difficulty which was anticipated. He held in his hand a return of the Bills then in progress, and he found that, if their Lordships should agree to all the Bills which would be brought before them this Session, it would require upwards of 90,000,000 l. to carry

33
them into effect. He ought to add that some of those Bills included in that calculation had already passed; but if an allowance, of 10,000,000 l. were made for those, there would remain 80,000,000 l. of expenditure to carry the others into effect, in case they were agreed to—a sum the payment of which was calculated to produce an important effect on the money market—an effect which their Lordships might judge of, when he informed them that the largest loan ever raised during the war was 45,000,000 l. in 1815. He had considered the subject, and with a view to suggesting to their Lordships a means of diminishing the evil which such a pressure would produce, he had prepared a series of Resolutions, which he would read to their Lordships. He gave the Government credit for their intention to prevent the evil of a too great pressure on the money market, in the scheme which they proposed at an earlier period of the Session; but that scheme had not been successful in diminishing the number of railway speculations to any extent; and he therefore felt satisfied that if their Lordships now entertained the same opinion with respect to this anticipated evil, which they did last March, they would be disposed to try another experiment with a view to avoiding the difficulty; and he would add, that if any of their Lordships proposed a more efficient means of avoiding the difficulty than he (Earl Fitzwilliam) was about to propose, he was not so wedded to his own plans as not to withdraw those Resolutions if a better experiment were suggested. There was no doubt that railway legislation ought to be regarded and dealt with as a whole system, which, although now in the infancy of its progress, would ultimately become the great means of communication throughout the country. A great misfortune was, that the Railway Bills had up to the present time been dealt with according to an old technicality as Private Bills, whereas it was highly desirable that the whole system of railway legislation should be placed in a connected form before them. In order to obviate the difficulties which it was feared might arise under the present system, he had prepared four Resolutions, which he would read to their Lordships:—

"1. That this House will not pass any Railway Bill, giving Power to raise Capital, either by the Issue of Shares, or by borrowing Money, which has or may come up from the House of Commons this Session, until all such Bills shall have been read a Second Time.

"2. That when all such Bills shall have been
34
read a Second Time, this House will appoint a Select Committee to take them into Consideration, to classify them according to their public Importance, and to select such as it may seem expedient to pass.

"3. That it be an Instruction to the said Committee not to select, for passing, Bills by which it shall be proposed to raise Capital exceeding 60,000,000 l., whether by the issue of Shares or borrowing Money."

He would remark with respect to this Resolution, that he would not object to the sum being named as 50,000,000 l., if it were thought preferable; but he had been desirous, in framing the Resolution, to give a large margin.
"4. That a Message be sent to the House of Commons requesting a Conference on the Subject of such Railway Bills as have originated in this House, and are now pending in the House of Commons."
The effect of these Resolutions, if agreed to and acted upon, would be to remove much of the evil of too great a pressure, an evil which might be dreaded under the present system. The noble Earl concluded by moving the Resolutions.
The EARL of DALHOUSIEsaid, that however desirable it might be to narrow the limits of railway enterprise in general, which was the object of the noble Earl, and however ready he (the Earl of Dalhousie) might have been at the commencement of the Session to adopt some resolutions similar to those proposed by the noble Lord, he ventured to represent to the House that, under existing circumstances, and after what had passed both in this and the other House, they could not, consistently with common justice and fairness, adopt the recommendation of the noble Earl. He (Earl of Dalhousie) might be permitted to remind their Lordships of what had taken place in Parliament in the early portion of the Session, with reference to this subject. During the very first days of the Session the question of railway legislation was brought under the consideration of both Houses of Parliament. The vast number of railway schemes projected, and the great amount of capital required to carry them out, were pointed out; and a Committee was appointed to consider the best means of dealing with the subject, which reported to the House. Their Lordships then adopted certain Resolutions; and, with the concurrence of the other House, certain Railway Bills connected with Ireland, and other Bills, the progress of which had been suspended in the last Session, together with new projects connected with them, were to be

35
originated in their Lordships' House. It had been stated that no specific plan, with reference to this subject, had been submitted by the Government to the Committees of either House of Parliament. He (Earl of Dalhousie) would not occupy their Lordships' time by discussing that question; but he might state that a plan was submitted in extenso to their Lordships' Committee on the part of the Government, and received their consideration. At that time the Committee of the other House presented their Report; in which, after stating that there were 562 Railway Bills standing for consideration, and adverting to the arrangements which might be made for their consideration, they proceeded—"Under these circumstances your Committee have not deemed it advisable to recommend to this House to make any selection from, or to place any limitation on, the number of railway schemes to be submitted to the consideration of Parliament during the present Session." Upon this declaration of opinion the inchoate railway companies had proceeded; their Bills had been for five months under consideration in the other House; they had expended immense sums of money; and many of them had attained the object they had in view, and had received the sanction of Parliament to their Bills. The other House of Parliament, which possessed the effective power in these matters, having distinctly declared the opinion he had quoted, and the railway companies having consequently gone on in the prosecution of their several projects, he thought, in common fairness and justice, their Lordships could not now turn round to the House of Commons and say, "True, you said there should be no selection or restriction, yet now we will select and we will restrict." Such a proceeding would really amount, he must say, though he did not wish to use strong terms, to a breach of faith on the part of their Lordships. But their Lordships had afforded to the projectors of these schemes another and another locus pœnitentiœ. They had adopted certain sessional orders, which, though they were not intended to stop the progress of railway enterprise, afforded those who were anxious to abandon their projects an opportunity of doing so; and their Lordships had since passed a Bill, which was now in the other House of Parliament, with the same object. It was, therefore, impossible for them to turn round now upon the projectors of these schemes, and to say that
36
they would select and they would restrict. To one of the Resolutions submitted to them by the noble Earl opposite, he (the Earl of Dalhousie) entertained very great objection, namely, to that which recommended that their Lordships should not pass any Railway Bills which proposed to raise an amount exceeding 60,000,000 l. He stated on the part of the Government at the commencement of the Session, that they were not prepared to say there should be any direct restriction imposed upon railway companies with regard to capital. He objected to this Resolution, on the ground that if they determined they would not sanction any railway scheme for which it was proposed to raise an amount exceeding 60,000,000 l., they tacitly admitted that a capital of 60,000,000 l. might fairly and properly be raised for such a purpose. He thought the House ought to be extremely cautious in dealing with such a question as this, and that an attempt to fix any positive limit of capital with regard to enterprises of this nature would be attended with great danger. There was one remedy in their Lordships' hands for the evils to which the noble Earl opposite referred, if they chose to exert it, in the strict and firm exercise of the power of Committees of that House. If the Committees of that House would do their duty fully, and in investigating these railway enterprises would not merely consider whether there were any fatal objections to Bills, but whether it was necessary under the circumstances of the times that those Bill should be passed, they possessed the means of limiting and diminishing, if not of absolutely preventing the evils to which reference had been made on this and former occasions. He trusted their Lordships would not adopt the Resolutions of the noble Earl.
LORD KINNAIRDconcurred with the noble Earl (Earl Dalhousie), that if their Lordships were now to adopt any restrictions with regard to railway projects before Parliament, after what had passed in the Legislature, they would be chargeable with a breach of faith. If the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam) had contented himself with proposing only the first of his four Resolutions, he (Lord Kinnaird) would have felt no objection to it, for it could not have injured any parties now before their Lordships. By limiting the amount of calls, and extending them over a longer space, a great relief would be given to the labour market. The Committee at present had no power of selection; for they felt that if

37
a railway was not opposed, they had scarcely the right to throw it out. A serious derangement would take place as soon as the great number of Bills now before the House had passed, and the calls began to be made on them.
LORD ASHBURTONsaid, that in the present position of affairs, he had so strong an objection to almost anything that could be proposed, that he did not see his way clearly enough to support the present Resolutions. If the amount required for the construction of the railways passed this Session, came at all near to that which had had been stated, there could be no doubt it would derange the monetary system, and produce confusion through the country. At the same time, the state of the case ought not to be exaggerated. If the railways passed this Session required a capital of 60,000,000 l., it should be remembered that the calls were usually spread over a period of three years, and that only one-third of that amount would be required during the present year. He did not lose sight of the fact that calls would also be made during the present year on behalf of railways which were in the second or third year of their construction; but he could not see in what manner Parliament could again interfere.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONsaid, that the first Resolution of the noble Lord, to stop the Bills until they reached a certain stage, would have the effect of collecting the Bills in one mass, and passing them at nearly the some time. It would thus create the very inconvenience which the noble Lord wished to avoid. He should like to see the instructions given to the Committee (for he supposed it would be necessary to give them instructions) before he was called upon to judge of the noble Lord's proposition. With respect to the first Resolution, he would again submit to their Lordships that it would collect all the Bills into one mass, and their Lordships would be called upon to pass them at the same moment.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, it was not decent that the House should not take some pains to put railway legislation on a proper footing. Almost all the Bills granted a compulsory power of dealing with landed property; and railway companies, during the period of three years allowed them, took the land or not, just as suited the exigencies of the moment. During this time the owners of land were kept in suspense, while the companies, in military
38
phrase, were only "occupying a position" which they feared the enemy might attain. It was unjust to give companies power over parties to take their land whether they would or not over a period so long as three years; for during that time improvements were stopped, and everything was in a state of suspense. He entreated their Lordships to take some step or other to improve the present system of railway legislation.
The DUKE of RICHMONDthought the thanks of the House were due to his noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) for calling attention to this subject; at the same time he agreed with his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade, that it was impossible to carry the Resolutions now before the House in justice or fairness after they had suffered matters to go on so long. The House ought to frame resolutions for another Session. Their object was not to stop the construction of proper railways, but to prevent Bills being obtained for branches that were never intended to be made, but which were brought forward to defeat railways that would be more useful to the public. He had been on a Committee where the company sought for powers to take land extending over a period of five years; the Committee, however, had given them only eighteen months. Companies said that the reason why they required so long a term was, that they found it so difficult to deal with landowners. He thought the House ought to limit the power which companies now possessed of borrowing money; that was the way to check some of those reckless schemes. At the present moment it was impossible to attend to the Standing Orders without feeling that they required great revision, and that they ought to be made more clear and decisive. An instance of this had occurred to-day in the operations of what was called Lord Wharncliffe's clause. Their Lordships should also, if possible, come to an arrangement with the House of Commons, so that when Bills had passed the Standing Orders Committee of the other House, they might be immediately brought before the Standing Orders Committee of their Lordships' House. The latter Committee, after a company had spent 8,000 l. or 10,000., did not like to throw out their Bill upon some technicality. He hoped the present Session would not be allowed to pass over without some arrangement being made for a future Session; but until railway companies were

39
compelled to conform strictly to the Standing Orders, things would never be put wholly right.
LORD REDESDALEagreed with the noble Duke that some improvement ought to be made in the Standing Orders. Their Lordships ought to insist that a line should be laid down so accurately that the engineers might at once proceed to work upon it, instead of sending in plans so imperfectly prepared that they wanted more time to revise them. He agreed also in the opinion that railway companies ought not to be allowed to borrow any money, and that all their capital should be raised by shares. He thought that some limit upon speculation was desirable; but their Lordships could not interfere again now. There was a great deal of leniency towards companies on the part of the Committees to whom they were referred. The duty of the Committee was to say whether the line before them was the best that could be laid down; and they had a right to call for evidence upon this point. In other countries the selection of the best lines was made by the Government. To say that because parties had spent a great deal of money, their Bill ought to pass, was to offer a temptation to getting up crude schemes. He trusted that Committees would inquire strictly into the merits of every Bill before them.
Earl FITZWILLIAMreplied. He concurred in thinking that Committees ought to be more strict, for at present their Lordships took every Bill into consideration, with reference to its own peculiar claims to being passed, without regard to the effect it might produce on the country generally, in consequence of so much capital being employed in one branch of speculation. He would not, however, press the Resolutions.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.