HL Deb 29 January 1846 vol 83 cc353-67
The EARL of DALHOUSIE

said, that in rising for the purpose of proposing to their Lordships to appoint a Committee for the purpose of considering the mode of dealing with railway business in that House during the present Session, he should endeavour to lay before their Lordships, and to state, as briefly as he could, the facts and grounds upon which it appeared to him to be desirable to consider the mode of dealing with that class of Private Bill business connected with railways, that was likely to occupy so much of their attention. In former years, the amount of Railway Bills brought under the consideration of the House, had been but inconsiderable. In the Session of 1845, however, it appeared from the Returns on the Table, that there were deposited with the Board of Trade 248 railway projects; but during the present year, up to the 30th of November last, there were deposited in like manner with the Board of Trade the plans and sections of 815, of which 606 were for railways in England, 126 for Scotland, and eighty-three for Ireland. Before the 31st of December, there was a very considerable reduction of that number; but upon that day there were deposited in the Private Bill Office, and now stood there, Bills for railways to the number of 687. He did not wish their Lordships to imagine that that number was likely to come under the consideration of the House. Some had already disappeared. Some projects had formed junctions with others; and from the extreme haste and inaccuracy with which many of those schemes had been prepared, no doubt a very great number more would disappear from that list, when they came before the Standing Orders' Committee, before coming under the consideration of Parliament; but, after making every allowance for all these contingencies, there could be no doubt whatever that the number of Railway Bills that would come under the consideration of Parliament in the present Session would infinitely exceed the number in any previous Session; and when their Lordships considered, even with the limited number of last Session, the very great labour that pressed upon the Committees of both Houses of Parliament, and of the other House especially; and when they adverted further to the fact that this enormous mass of legislation was in addition to the ordinary Private Bill business that came before Parliament, he thought it would be almost impossible to find committees enough to take these numerous schemes into consideration; or, if they could find Members enough to constitute committees for the purpose, that those committees could give to them sufficient attention to be satisfactory either to themselves, or to the public. Upon that ground, therefore, if there were no other, some interference would be necessary; but there was a still graver difficulty than that, and that was the amount of capital proposed by those Bills to be employed in the formation of lines of railway. The capital, as shown by the official statements of the different companies which it was supposed would be required by those 687 Bills, amounted to not less than 370,000,000l. But he did not wish their Lordships to suppose that that amount of capital was likely to be called for; because, in addition to the number of Bills that would, no doubt, be relinquished, there were a vast number of competing schemes, one only of which could, of course, receive the sanction of Parliament. But after making every deduction from the estimated sum upon that account, and taking even the lowest sum he had heard mentioned by those who were most interested in making it appear as small as possible, it was supposed that the lowest amount of capital that would be called for, to carry into operation the schemes provided by the Bills which it was proposed to pass this Session, would be upwards of 100,000,000l. of money. But they were not in a condition to calculate the total amount that would be demanded for railway purposes during the coming years, unless they considered the amount of their present obligations. In the last Session, there were sanctioned 118 Railway Bills, the capital of which was about 56,000,000l., and in the previous year there were upwards of forty Railway Bills, involving capital to the amount of upwards of 14,000,000l. In the last two years, therefore, there had been authorized to be laid out in railways very nearly 70,000,000l. Their Lordships would recollect that the demand for that money was not gradual, so as to lighten the difficulty of meeting it. It appeared that the time employed in the completion of these railways, did not ordinarily exceed three years. The demand, then, for that 70,000,000l. would fall within three years; and, after making a deduction for the expenditure already made for the Bills of 1844, their Lordships must calculate that during the years 1846, 1847, and 1848, there would be on an average a demand of 20,000,000l. for each of these years, even as things stood at present. Therefore, taking the lowest estimate of the amount of capital, for the railways which would be brought under the consideration of Parliament in the present Session at 100,000,000l., and adding it to the 70,000,000l. already sanctioned, he thought it was impossible for any man to consider the possibility of Parliament going on to take into consideration that mass of Bills, involving so vast an amount of capital, without feeling the necessity of looking also to the effect of those schemes on the general interests of the country. It seemed then to be necessary for Parliament now to consider whether the diversion of such a mass of capital into the one line of railway investment might not be at variance with the general good; whether it would not have an injurious effect upon trade generally; and whether some sort of limitation should not by some means be placed upon that extraordinary expenditure. He was not unnecessarily anticipating the inconvenience that would arise, for he was sure it must be perfectly notorious to all, that the inconvenience which he anticipated was even already beginning to be felt. It was perfectly well known, from the information which was coming from every part of the United Kingdom, or at all events from every part of Great Britain, that already the price of labour was enhanced to an extraordinary, and almost to an inconvenient degree. The price of materials was also enhanced; and if they were to have a further expenditure, it would have the effect of driving up still higher the price of labour and materials — an effect that must everywhere be felt to be most inconvenient. He would go farther than that, and say, he believed it was not for the interest of railway enterprise itself that unbounded sanction should be given to the demand of capital for it. He believed the effect of it would be to drive up prices in the manner he had described. Indeed, he had heard it said, that it was unnecessary for Parliament to interfere at all; because the price of labour would be so high as to prevent the full execution of all the plans. However, he thought their Lordships would not think it convenient that they should pass Bills for the incorporation of those companies, with vast capital, and armed with great powers—powers which, if the lines were not constructed, they would keep suspended over the heads of all those who were affected by them, whilst in the meantime they would deprive the public of the advantages which it was intended they should derive, and in consideration of which Parliament was induced to grant those great powers to them. On the other hand, there might be companies who would go on at all hazards till they should have expended all their money before they had by any means concluded their undertaking, and the consequence would be, that in both cases the railway people themselves would not be benefited, and the country would be left without the advantages intended by the Legislature to be provided for them. On all these grounds—in consideration of the extreme difficulty felt in conducting the business; in consideration of the risk which he thought might be involved in the division of so great an additional capital on railways; and in consideration of the interests of parties engaged in railway undertakings themselves—it was wise to consider whether they could safely pursue the course they had heretofore followed in railway legislation; and whether they ought not to place some sort of limitation on that expenditure. It had been remarked the other evening by a noble Marquess, whom he expected to have then seen in his place (the Marquess of Clanricarde), that it was the duty of the Government to have come down with some specific plan to recommend to Parliament, and that it was unworthy of the Government to apply for the appointment of a Committee. The noble Marquess said, that it was unworthy of the Ministry to throw the responsibility from their own shoulders to those of Parliament. But it was not in the power of the Executive Government to determine what course should be adopted; nor did they shift the responsibility, for the responsibility must ultimately have rested with Parliament; and even if it had been in their power, seeing that there was already in existence a system which had worked well, and which had been approved of, and adopted by Parliament itself, it would have been unbecoming in the Government to come down with a demand for the adoption of some other plan, without giving the opportunity to Parliament to consider the system in existence, before adopting any amendments. He admitted that it was the duty of the Government to take these matters into consideration, and to arrange the mode in which Parliament could deal with them with the least possible delay; and to give their advice as to the course which should be pursued. That the Government had done, and on the very first day of the Session notice had been given in the other House of the appointment of a Committee; and a Select Committee had been then appointed to consider the existing state of Private Bill business. In the meantime, means would be afforded by the aid of maps, distinguishing the different lines of railroad already constructed, and those sanctioned by Parliament, and those now to be brought under their consideration, for knowing the districts still to be accommodated, and showing the enormity and complexity of the schemes that were now to be submitted to Parliament. The schemes would also be classified as they were last year; and again it would be shown what were the particular objects of each scheme. It would have been fruitless and impossible in that or in the other House of Parliament for the Government to have laid before the House any general scheme, and to have invited discussion upon it, since the result would have been, that, after eliciting as many opinions as there were Members in the House, the scheme would have been referred to a Committee after all. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had moved for a Committee in the other House; that Committee had already entered upon its inquiries, and he now moved for a similar Committee in that House. If this Committee were granted, the Government would be prepared to lay before it all the information they had collected; and to state not only their views with respect to railroad legislation, but to suggest also the course which they thought it would be wise for Parliament, under existing circumstances, to adopt. If the views of the Committee should be in accordance with the opinions of the Government, the Report would be presented to the House, backed by the authority of those Members of the House who had most devoted their attention to the subject; but, upon the other hand, if the Committee did not approve of the views of the Government, such alterations might be proposed as should be considered to render the plan most effectual. There were other matters which might come under the consideration of that Committee; and he did not despair that some plan could be suggested, or some arrangement made, that would facilitate the transaction of railway business between the two Houses of Parliament, and not only conduce to the convenience of the Houses, but to the benefit of the parties interested. Under these circumstances, looking at the impossibility of working the system as it now stood, and looking at the peculiar circumstances in which they were placed, he would move— That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Mode in which the House shall deal with the Railway Bills proposed to be submitted to the House during the present Session.

LORD BROUGHAM

expressed his entire approval of the course which the noble Lord proposed to pursue. He thought this was the most convenient mode of dealing with a subject which, as every one must see, was very complicated in its details, and very extensive in its relations. He agreed, too, in the expressions of the noble Lord with reference to the point on which the greatest alarm was entertained—the immense amount of capital which had been, and was about to be, invested in these undertakings. God forbid that he should appear to coincide in any such doctrine, as that Government should in any way interfere with the application of capital. That would be the wildest, maddest, of all possible visions; but if Parliament called on to give extraordinary, nay, even extravagant powers, in certain cases, it must not, if it thought right to adopt checks and precautions, be said to interfere with the voluntary use and employment of capital, but rather to employ a salutary restraint where those extraordinary powers appeared to involve the distraction of capital from natural, and its investment in artificial employments. He had never said, and never contemplated, that it was not right to make grants for railway purposes, provided they were made with a proper degree of care and circumspection; but when he was called upon to extend those grants to the extent spoken of by the noble Lord—from twenty millions even up to fifty-three millions of money for the next three years—it did appear to him that it behaved Parliament to pause and institute inquiry before it proceeded headlong in such a career. There was another part of the subject not broached by his noble Friend, on which he (Lord Brougham) hoped he would be heard by their Lordships; or, if he were a Member of the Committee, he hoped to be heard on the subject in Committee. He thought it to be of consequence to the character of Parliament that there should be a due and satisfactory performance of its functions in dealing with that mass of business, and that they should give such skilful experience and satisfactory attention to those Bills, as he (Lord Brougham) did not think, with all possible respect for both Houses of Parliament, could by possibility be given by them if the Private Bill business was to continue precisely on the same footing as it was. He (Lord Brougham) was as jealous of the just and due privileges of Parliament as any Member of their House could possibly be. God forbid those just privileges should ever be interfered with, or that any attempt should be made to transfer them to any other quarter; but he was persuaded that to vest in Parliamentary Committees — in the very worst tribunals that mortal man's wit ever devised — the entire management of so enormous a proportion of the judicial business of the nation—for judicial business it was—to permit such a tribunal to sit in judgment on such a mass of property as was daily subject to the decision of Committees of that House—property exceeding, by a hundredfold, all the property under litigation in the Courts of Law, in the Courts of Equity, ay, and in the Courts of Quarter Sessions to boot—to vest in such a species of tribunal such powers, such authority, such responsibility, was, in his opinion, an arrangement so ill adapted to public exigencies, so little calculated to satisfy suitors, that he did hope that in that House an early opportunity would be afforded him of stating to their Lordships the result of his experience, in both Houses of Parliament, and also in his professional and judicial capacity, for the purpose, and with the view, of helping them to come to an arrangement more satisfactory, and more suited, not only to the people, who were their suitors, but, he would add, to their own dignity and authority.

LORD KINNAIRD

was glad to hear of the noble Lord's intention. He thought that by bringing the subject of Private Business under the consideration of the whole House, the noble Lord would be doing an essential service to the public. With regard to this Committee, he much wished that its deliberations could be extended to the subject of consolidating railways. He believed that, in several cases, one line was now working against another; and that this was a great cause of those irregularities which resulted in accidents more or less serious. In the course of his own travelling experience, he had often found that, where there was cause for complaint, the blame was shifted to the management of some other line; and that he got no redress, because each party insisted in laying the blame upon the other. With reference to another branch of the subject, he wished to take this opportunity of giving a notice: it was, that on Monday next he would move for a Return of the Fees paid and payable in the House on the introduction of Railway Bills, and of petitions connected with them. He understood that these fees were enormous; that whilst, for instance, the expense of opposing a Bill on the part of a petitioner was about 800l., the fees were not less than 300l. of the money. In a matter where justice was involved, no man ought, in his opinion, to be put to such costs as these fees entailed.

LORD ASHBURTON

said, it seemed to him that something might be provided with respect to the inconvenience mentioned by the noble Lord; but not by this Committee. He approved of the appointment of the Committee; but if many of these adventures were to be put off to a distant period, and if the money was to be locked up, and professional labour uselessly expended, it was of importance that an early decision should be come to on the subject; and he, therefore, hoped that the Committee would sit assiduously. Amongst other arrangements, it was highly desirable that the railway business should be brought under the consideration of that House at an earlier period of the Session. Under the present system the Bills often came up to that House at a late period of the Session, and then they incurred much odium for their not being passed. He perfectly agreed in all that had been stated by the noble Lord as to the necessity of putting some limitation on the calls for capital and labour in this country. They must recollect a little how some of these schemes were got up. A country attorney and an engineer were all the staff necessary to prepare a "great competing line;" and surely therefore it was necessary to put a check on a system so peculiarly liable to abuse. He felt, moreover, that such a limitation was not more necessary on monetary considerations than on considerations having reference to labour. It was, no doubt, for the public interest, that there should be abundance of employment, which involved, of course, high rates of wages; and he believed that at present there was that abundance of employment with its necessary accompaniment. But how long, let him ask, was this state of things to last? If substantial good was to accrue to the country, the employment must be spread over a series of successive years, and must not merely serve the purposes of securing a temporary advantage. They must beware how they scattered away their money all at once. They might take a warning on the point of what had occurred at former periods of temporary prosperity. Any one could recollect during the last war how prosperous all appeared, whilst 15,000,000l. or 20,000,000l. were raised and spent each year, being laid out in the expenses of that war. They knew what was the prosperity then. The same system showed itself now, only in a better way. Then large sums were wasted in subsidies to Austria, to Prussia, and to other Powers; whilst at present all was spent among our own people, and in most instances with a reasonable prospect of return. He only mentioned this, because the present extraordinary prosperity was said to arise from an approximation to free trade, and that this was to be seen in the demand for labour. Any one, however, who had seen what took place during the last war would see the history of that prosperity, great as it was, in every part; and he took the liberty of admonishing their Lordships that they should not be quite sure they could scatter away the revenue, and trust to the continuance of that prosperity. This subject was not immediately connected with the measure then before the House; but those who were connected with the Government would do well to consider the suggestions he had made. It was clear that by the appointment of a Committee the subject of railway legislation would be best brought forward.

The DUKE of MONTROSE

expressed an earnest hope that the course the Government intended to pursue would be made publicly known at an early day. In a few days hence the deposits were to be paid to the Accountant General. Unless this Committee was prepared to report before the payment of those deposits, they might be receiving them under very unsatisfactory circumstances. Suppose reports were made against certain lines the money for which had been deposited; why, the consequence would be that that money would be locked up, and that great inconvenience would ensue. He must admit that by reporting in a hurried manner it would be impossible in all cases to decide properly; but, on the other hand, it was very desirable that they should learn on what principle the Government proposed to act. It was said, in the other House, that a decision would be first arrived at, as to the railways most wanted by the country; but on what principle was the decision to be made? Some would say, that the districts most requiring lines of railway were those in which the population and manufactures were the greatest; whilst others would hold to the opinion that those districts should be first assisted which had no lines of railway in their neighbourhood. Although it was true, no doubt, that some lines had been got up, as the noble Lord who had spoken last had described, yet there were other Bills which were bonâ fide—which were promoted and supported by the landowners of the districts through which they would pass, and which ought rather to be facilitated than impeded in their progress through Parliament. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would endeavour to secure an early report of the proceedings of this Committee.

EARL GREY

would give his vote in favour of the Resolution for the appointment of the Special Committee, but wished to have it distinctly understood, that in so doing he did not desire to be interpreted as giving his sanction to the principle which appeared to be advocated by many who were anxious for the formation of the Committee—the irrational, he would say rather unconstitutional, principle, that Parliament had a right to interfere in the speculations of private individuals, or to attempt to prescribe limits to the amount of capital which the British public might, in the exercise of their discretion, think fit to expend on any particular project or projects. The more arguments he heard in sustainment of that principle, the more strongly was he inclined to doubt that it had any consideration either of sound policy or common sense to recommend it. It appeared to him that what Parliament in the discharge of its legitimate duties was called upon to do was this—first, to inquire and ascertain whether the parties who had applied for Bills to enable them to construct railways, were really in possession of the capital which they professed to have at their command; secondly, whether that capital was sufficient for the proper carrying out of the project they had in contemplation; thirdly, whether that project was calculated to be beneficial to the public interests; and lastly (and this indeed was a consideration of such importance that it ought, perhaps, to take precedence of all others), whether it was an undertaking which interfered unjustly, unfairly, or unnecessarily with private property. To these considerations the House ought to limit its inquiries; and if satisfactory answers were returned to all these questions, he for his part very much doubted whether, with respect to railways, or any other description of enterprises, Parliament would be justified in exercising any interference, with a view to dissuade or prevent the people of this country from laying out their money in the manner most agreeable to themselves. It should be left to the parties who subscribed the capital, and to them exclusively, to determine whether it was likely to prove advantageous to their interests, or the reverse, that they should withdraw their funds from other enterprises, and devote them to railways. This was a consideration for them, and for them alone; and Parliament, in his opinion, stepped beyond the province of its legitimate functions when it attempted to prescribe and define the exact amount of national capital which it was desirable should be withdrawn from other enterprises, to be expended upon railway projects. It was for the individuals who thought fit to embark in those enterprises to determine how far they were likely to prove profitable or otherwise. No doubt errors of judgment would occasionally be committed, but individuals were much more likely to form a just estimate of what would probably prove advantageous to them than that House could possibly be. They could better judge of matters affecting their own interest than that House could; and it should be borne in mind that what was for the interest of each individual, or of a vast proportion of individuals, was, in fact, for the interest of the public. If their Lordships should be of opinion that the rules and formularies which governed their House were not sufficiently stringent to prevent men who really had no capital at command from undertaking great public enterprises, and plunging the public in unavailing outlays, let them, with a view to the remedying of this evil, make their regulations and restrictions more severe—let them revise their Standing Orders, and take especial care not to give Parliamentary powers to those who were not in a condition to use them. But their Lordships would be entering upon an inquiry from which no beneficial results could possibly flow if they were to attempt, on a hasty and superficial examination (for such it must of necessity be) to determine which of the railway projects of this year should go forward, and which should be suspended. He thought it necessary to make these remarks, lest it should be supposed that in advocating the appointment of the Committee, he was recognising the justice of one of the principles which it appeared that Committee intended to proceed upon. Nothing could be more remote from his intention. One word now before he resumed his seat. He thought it was highly desirable that the Committee should take into its most serious consideration any measures that might be suggested with a view to those two objects—the lessening of the expense of Parliamentary proceedings in railway matters, and the diminution of the labours which devolved upon Committees of the House in consequence of the great pressure of business of this description. A suggestion had been thrown out last year, which he regretted had not been acted upon, with respect to the advisability of there being a joint Committee of both Houses to decide upon matters of this kind. It had sometimes occurred in cases of competing railway companies that one House had decided in favour of one line, and the other House of another line, and the consequence was that both fell to the ground altogether, after a vast deal of expense had been incurred by the promoters of each. He suggested whether it might not be better to make some arrangement with a view to the formation of a joint Committee for both Houses.

LORD ASHBURTON

observed upon the difficulty of that House being able to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion in the event of their instituting (as suggested by the noble Duke who had just sat down) an inquiry respecting the amount of bonâ fide capital in the possession of railway companies. How was the House to ascertain this? How was the capital of most of these railway schemes represented, except by an interminable list of high-sounding names, with certain figures written after each of them? In point of fact, it was with a long list of names, and not with real substantial capital, their Lordships had to deal.

LORD MONTEAGLE

confessed he thought that their Lordships were engaged in an impracticable effort. It mattered not what number of Committees they might appoint—it mattered not what improvements they might introduce into their system—they could not effect the object they had in view as long as Railway Bills were dealt with by the House of Commons as though they were money bills, which could only originate with that House. It was a mistake to suppose that such measures could only originate with the Commons. They might just as well originate with their Lordships. Some change was absolutely necessary. Even supposing that the railway business were not to exceed this Session what it had been last year—and they all knew that it would be incomparably heavier—they had not the least chance in the present state of things of being able to discharge their duties with justice to the parties concerned, with satisfaction to the public at large, or with credit to themselves. The present system was a most vicious one, and he must say that, in his opinion, that House had not been treated as it should have been. Look at the period of the Session at which the railway bills were sent up to them last year from the other House. One hundred and eighteen railway bills were passed during the Session. During the months of February, March, April, and May, only eleven of those Bills came before their Lordships' House. Eighty-one were sent up from the Commons in the month of June, and twenty-five in the month of July—thus showing that the whole railway business of the country was thrown almost simultaneously upon the House of Lords at the period of their present difficulty and pressure. As long as railway bills were dealt with as though they were money bills, and that an impression prevailed that they must of necessity originate with the other House, so long their Lordships would be in a position of difficulty and perplexity, from which it would be impossible to extricate themselves. There was, at one time, an idea respecting Bills having reference to pecuniary penalties—an idea similar to that which now prevailed respecting railway bills, namely, that they were like money bills, and must originate with the Commons; but this notion had to be abandoned, and he hoped that it would be thus also with railway bills. With respect to the various projects now under the consideration of Parliament, it was of course impossible that they could all have precedence; but the peculiar position of Ireland just at present was such, that he was sure their Lordships would concur with him in thinking that it was only right that as much encouragement as was possible, under all circumstances, should be given to enterprises projected in that country. Most assuredly regard should be had to the present unhappy condition of Ireland.

LORD BROUGHAM

Oh, certainly. In coming to a decision give the cast of the balance that way, by all means.

LORD MONTEAGLE

continued to observe that if the railway business were fairly divided between the two Houses of Parliament, reasonable progress could be given to the consideration of Irish measures, without at all interfering with the English business.

LORD REDESDALE

thought that the question the House had to consider was one of possibility. There were no less than 600 new railway schemes to be decided upon, and he held it to be absolutely impossible that all these should be disposed of, under the present system, in the course of a single Session. The Committees last Session had acquitted themselves in a most creditable manner. Their decisions were upright and honest, and in no instance had the Members been biassed by feelings of private interest. However, the work was now so onerous as to be impossible of achievement.

Motion agreed to. Committee named. House adjourned.