Lords Sitting of 9 February 1846

Preamble
MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS.—2a. Public Works (Ireland); Administration of Criminal Justice.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Stanley, from Swinefleet, and several other places, for Protection to Agriculture.—By Earl Grey, from Tenants, Farmers, and Agriculturists, of Forfar, for the Immediate Repeal of the Duties on Corn and Provisions; and for an Equalization of the Duties on Sugar.—By Lord Stanley, from the Chamber of Commerce of Limerick, against the Alteration of the Corn Laws, and for the Adoption of a Measure for the Immediate Relief of the Poor of Ireland.—From the Manchester Commercial Association, in favour of the Principles of Free Trade.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
The EARL of ST. GERMANS, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, briefly explained its provisions. With respect to grants, it would place a further sum of 50,000 l. at the disposal of the Board of Works, and provide some further facilities for making grants; and with respect to loans for drainage and other improvements, it would extend the term for repayment from three to twenty years. The Commissioners would be enabled to bring home to the very doors of the peasantry the means of profitable employment, which was the relief to be looked to in the present emergency. No man, too, could have seen the great public works executed within the last few years in Clare, Antrim, and other counties, and the effect produced by those improvements, without feeling that a more profitable investment of capital could scarcely be found. The power of consumption on the part of that country was likely thus to be incalculably increased, and the moral and social benefits to be expected should induce them to make every reasonable exertion to promote the progress of those improvements.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, it behoved Parliament not only to pass that Bill, but to enact a series of other measures which would improve permanently the condition of the people of Ireland. He had heard it stated that the pressure upon the people of that country was merely slight, and not deserving of all the consideration bestowed upon it; but he could undertake to state to their Lordships, that a more grievous mistake could not possibly exist: the magnitude of the evil and danger awaiting that country

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did not seem to have come sufficiently home to their minds. The Government had not as yet presented to their Lordships the result of the investigations made into the state of distress in Ireland, although those Reports were laid before the other House of Parliament; but he was prepared to state, from his own knowledge of that country, that the condition of the people was the most appalling and distressing that he had ever had occasion to contemplate, even with reference to Ireland. The Report of Messrs. Lindley and Playfair, which was dated as far back as the 15th of November, stated that one-half of the potato crop in Ireland was either lost or altogether unfit for the consumption of man; it also stated that they feared that that was a low estimate, and they adverted to the consequences likely to ensue from a deficiency of seed for next season. Another Report was made subsequently, viz., on the 20th of January, from which the danger, so far from being diminished, appeared to be greatly aggravated. He would read one paragraph from this last Report:—
"It appears from undoubted authority, that of the thirty-two counties in Ireland, not one has escaped the failure in the potato crop; of 130 Poor Law Unions, not one is exempt; of 2,058 electoral divisions, above 1,400 are certainly reported as having suffered; and we have no certainty, until the receipt of the more minute returns now in progress of completion, that the remaining 600 have altogether escaped."
For those persons who were connected with Ireland, this matter opened anticipations of evil without example. They had to deal with the deplorable want of food in the thirty-two counties of Ireland, at the beginning of the year; and this deficiency of food would inevitably be followed by fever and other calamities. The measure just introduced to their Lordships' House he took to be one of a series which Her Majesty's Government intended to bring forward, all of which would have a tendency to act on the present state of things in Ireland. It was far from his intention to undervalue it even as a single measure; but it was most important when taken in connexion with those other measures to which the noble Lord had alluded. He was persuaded that Her Majesty's Government would not only give the distressed state of that country every consideration of which they were capable, and which the subject demanded; but that they would, with as much despatch as it was possible, make every provision they could for the exigencies of the present times. He wished,
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however, to call the attention of the Government to a matter connected with this question. The noble Earl had mentioned the benefits which were found to be connected with the extension of public works in Ireland. He thought that the treatment of Ireland by Parliament should, in many respects, be one of a wise and generous influence; guiding that country as one which Englishmen must admit to be younger than theirs, and without experience; and which did not know how to render all its enormous natural advantages properly available. Now, the public works undertaken in Ireland, had had the effect of developing the natural resources of that country to a great extent even already; and he must be allowed to say, that, under the system enforced since 1831, the advances made by the State in aid of public works in Ireland had been unaccompanied by any loss. The repayment of all the loans to Ireland had been most rigidly enforced, and were as punctual as they were in England. He highly approved of the accurate and rigid enforcement of the repayment of loans, for it was invariably attended with the best results to the borrowers as well as to the lenders; and he was, therefore, happy to be able to state that in Ireland, loans for public works had been punctually repaid. The effect of the employment of the people on these public works was, to civilize districts which were before almost impervious to law and order; to render the public revenue productive in districts where before smuggling and illicit distillation prevailed; to train up the people to better habits; to make them improved labourers; and in all respects to ameliorate their physical and moral condition. Now, he did not see how they could anticipate any of those salutary results from the relief proposed by Her Majesty's Government in respect of the constabulary force, the expense of which was now charged on the counties; but he wished to persuade the Government and their Lordships in favour of a different distribution of the intended relief. He would assume that the charge on the counties for the constabulary force, amounted to 190,000 l. a year. He asked for no larger sum, but he asked for a different distribution. The Government proposal not only would act unjustly, but would act in an inverse ratio to that in which such intervention ought to act. What would be the effect of a general remission of the taxation for the constabulary fund? Take, for instance, the counties of Down

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and Tipperary. The county of Down had been uniformly tranquil and peaceable, and was proportionably prosperous; and consequently the expense of the constabulary force of Down, in respect to its population, was infinitely less than that of Tipperary; which unfortunately had a different character in the criminal records of Ireland. In Tipperary there was disturbance: life, it was said, was insecure; property defenceless; and consequently there was an enormous constabulary force. Now, the effect of the proposed remission of the constabulary rates would be, with reference to those two counties, that the county which had been most disturbed, would derive the greater advantage; whilst less, and scarcely any, benefit would be conferred upon the county, which was always in a state of peace and tranquillity. It was not just to give relief in such a way; and he was, moreover, doubtful whether this relief would improve the character and relations of the constabulary force itself. The constabulary force was admirably disciplined, and he had always supported it, on account of the benefits derived from it; but it would lose its character and much of its efficiency if it did not carry with it the good feeling of the local magistracies of the counties. Entirely dissevered from the magistracy, and paid exclusively by the Government, he was afraid it would assume too much of the character of a foreign gens-d'armerie. If the Government did not at present possess sufficient control with respect to the constabulary, he had no objection to give them sufficient powers; but let them not dissociate the force from the local authorities. Besides, he would impress on the attention of the Government this circumstance. If there was an increase of disturbances now in any county or district in Ireland, the police should be increased there. The farmers were alarmed at the increase of the county-rate, consequent upon the increase of disturbances; and their anxiety to diminish public rates was at present a kind of tie on them to assist, and to exert themselves in assisting, in the preservation of the peace of the county, and of the particular locality in which they lived. For these reasons he was averse to the Government proposal; for he thought that if the 190,000 l. a year, proposed to be remitted in the manner suggested by Her Majesty's Government were appropriated in a different way—in the construction of public works and other improvements which would give employment to the people
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—it would be creating a new epoch of civilization and improvement in the history of Ireland, and would contribute very materially to its general and permanent improvement. If so large a sum as 190,000 l. a year was administered justly, it would call forth funds from other parties in Ireland, locally interested in its prosperity, and it would induce public bodies to embark capital in that country. He did not suggest that any augmentation should be made in the sum proposed to be given; but if it was given so that the spade, the pickaxe, and the theodolite were put into requisition—if it was so appropriated, that the labourer and the artisan could be kept constantly and usefully employed—it would be doing much more practical good for the people of Ireland than could ever result from the remission of local burdens to any amount. He wished the course adopted by Parliament should be such as would produce a perpetual effect upon the improvement of the condition of the country. He was aware that the feeling of gratitude entertained for the mere repeal or remission of a tax—the most unpopular that could be—did not survive, in the minds of the people, even the very Session of Parliament in which that tax had been repealed. What he wished for therefore was, that Her Majesty's Government would so appropriate the sum they proposed to exempt the people of Ireland from paying in the shape of taxes that a just and useful influence should be exercised over them, and that they should, in the manner he (Lord Monteagle) suggested, be kept properly employed. He approved entirely of the principle and object of the Bill; but he wished to avail himself of that opportunity to express his opinions with reference to the measures about to be submitted to Parliament: as Her Majesty's Government was not pledged to them, his suggestions might be of some service.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONsaid, that though the proposition relating to Ireland, to which the noble Lord had referred, had been intimated to Parliament, yet it was not before their Lordships' House, nor was it likely to come before their Lordships' House for some time. He could assure the noble Lord, who had explained his suggestion to him last Friday, that he had taken it into consideration, and had conversed and communicated on the subject with others more likely than himself to have influence over the matter. So short a space of time, however, had passed since the noble

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Lord mentioned the subject to him, that he could not at the present moment say that it was intended to adopt the noble Lord's suggestion. It had appeared that the proper mode of proceeding in respect to the police force in Ireland, which constituted a tax on the land, was the same as that proposed to be adopted in relation to charges on land in this country. The Commission over which his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Devon) presided, had strongly recommended the very measure now proposed—the entire relief of the Irish counties from the cost of maintaining the police force, which it was suggested should be placed entirely in the hands of the Government. The Commission to which he referred made a very strong recommendation on this subject; and he entreated their Lordships to pause before they came to any determination with reference to matters which they would hereafter be called upon to consider, when they came to take into their consideration the recommendations of that Commission. He could assure their Lordships that the Government were most anxious to give due attention to the wants of the Irish people, and that they were fully sensible of the importance of developing the great resources of that country. The Government had in contemplation measures for effecting these objects; and he hoped that, in the course of the Session, those measures which were intended to afford efficient relief to the people of Ireland would receive the sanction of Parliament. He wished that his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had thought proper to postpone his remarks until the measures to which he (the Duke of Wellington) had referred, came regularly before the House; because his noble Friend might rely, that whenever he gave any suggestions into his hands, they would fairly undergo the consideration of the Government. He begged to assure the noble Lord, that he had repeated to his right hon. Friend, Sir R. Peel, exactly what had been stated to him on Friday night by the noble Lord as to his views on this subject.
LORD STOURTONfelt he should be wanting in his duty both to England and Ireland, if he did not express his hearty concurrence with the measure which had been proposed by the Government for the benefit and relief of the Irish people, both moral and social, by the encouragement of public works in that country. He believed it would be of great benefit to England that the labour of Ireland should be absorbed at
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home in the construction of public works, and in developing its resources, which, to the disgrace of this country, had lain dormant for upwards of 600 years. His Lordship next adverted to the alarming and appalling statement of the distress in Ireland which had been made by Lord Monteagle, and said that that had induced him at that early period to address the House. Many of their Lordships might recollect the condition of that country in 1817, when it appeared from official returns that 65,000 persons passed through the fever hospitals of Dublin. He feared that they were now about to witness a similar state of things; and it behoved their Lordships to adopt all possible means of averting such a calamity. He trusted that the measures proposed would be the advent of a new and better era in the history of England and Ireland. He was induced to believe that the measure now proposed by the Government, if followed up, would tend more to cement the union between this country and Ireland than any which had been proposed. It would, in fact, unite them, almost in spite of themselves. It would bring the poverty of Ireland to compete with the wealth of England, and to form an equilibrium between the labour of the two countries—an equilibrium which he wished to see established, but upon a sound basis. He wished on this account to see the Irish peasant elevated into a better position than the agricultural labourers in many districts of England, and than the hand-loom weavers in the manufacturing towns. Under any circumstances it would be gratifying to him if the employment of the Irish people were less dependent upon the land. In 1825, Mr. Leslie Foster told them the Irish must have land, for they depended upon it. That word 'must' had dreadful power; and therefore he contended that generosity, justice, gratitude, policy, and interest, all combined to show the necessity of giving as much employment as possible, and in such a mode as was contemplated in the present Bill, to the people of Ireland.
The EARL of DEVONentirely concurred in the opinion expressed by his noble Friend (Lord Stourton) as to the importance of finding employment for the people of Ireland, and of employing them in the prosecution of works attended with the advantage of improving the country. There would be no difference of opinion, he apprehended, upon the Bill now before the House, considering its object, nor any doubt that it would be read the second time; but he did

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not rise so much for the purpose of directly speaking to the Bill, as for the purpose of referring to what the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had stated in relation to the opinions expressed by the Tenure of Land Commissioners. These opinions were given by four persons—to put himself out of the question—eminently qualified to form a sound judgment upon the subject; and it was founded not upon any theories or fancies of their own, but upon the due consideration of a great mass of evidence taken upon this particular point. He would, without going further into this subject, at once say that if the recommendations of that Commission were carried out, they would to a great extent remove one grievance to which the noble Lord had referred—the existing inequalities of the local taxation. The Commissioners stated, that they considered the police force had become in a great measure a Government force. In many parts of Ireland it was employed instead of the military, which it would have been necessary to have employed in large numbers if the constabulary force had not existed. The appointments rested with the Government. In this respect, therefore, it had more the character of a national than a local establishment. What the Commissioners, under these circumstances, recommended was, that the expense of maintaining the quota of constabulary required it to be raised by the different counties, under the Act of Parliament, should be discontinued, and the expense be wholly defrayed by the State, instead of paying it only partially. The Commissioners also referred to the power possessed by the Lord Lieutenant of sending an additional force into any counties or districts where disturbances might occur; and they recommended that the whole expense of such additional force should be borne by the county or townland in which the conduct of the people rendered the presence of an extra force necessary; and he repeated, that if the suggestions and recommendations of the Commissioners were acted upon, the taxation now complained of would be equalized. He was fully alive to the necessity of being liberal in the grants of public money which must be required, not only for public works properly so called, of which he admitted the importance, but also in aid of works which he considered of greater importance—those which tended to promote the actual agricultural improvement of the country—which, if carried out, as he hoped they would be, to a
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considerable extent in the coming year, would not only provide employment for the people, by relieving existing distress, but would lay the foundation of an increased amount of produce from the fertile soil of Ireland, which, in his opinion, would be the best safeguard against the recurrence of such a calamity as was now impending over that country.
The EARL of RODENhad listened to this debate with much interest, and, as an Irish resident landlord, he felt grateful to Her Majesty's Government for the proposition before the House: he trusted and believed it would be of very material use in the present condition of the people of Ireland; but, at the same time, there were clauses in the Bill with which he could not altogether agree—he meant the compulsory and mandatory clauses, to which, when the Bill was in Committee, he would take the opportunity of calling their Lordships' attention. He had listened with sincere gratification to the speech of his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle); but he was extremely sorry to hear the gloomy view which he took of what was to be expected in Ireland with regard to the apprehended famine. What the noble Lord had stated with regard to his own district in Ireland, was certainly correct; but in the north of Ireland, where he (the Earl of Roden) lived, the House would be happy to hear, though there might individually be great difficulty and pressure, distress did not exist to the extent described by his noble Friend. He trusted, nevertheless, that Government would take the necessary steps to meet the tremendous circumstances to which his noble Friend had referred, for he believed that in many parts the distress had by no means been exaggerated. He had heard for the first time, to-night, the views of his noble Friend respecting the constabulary force in Ireland. He (the Earl of Roden) had a very peculiar feeling with regard to the constabulary, as at present constituted. In no country could there exist a more useful and active establishment than that of the Irish police; they were worthy of all praise; they did their duty, and their management reflected credit upon those who were placed at their head. But he must say, that the resident magistrates of Ireland, who attended the petty sessions, and who, therefore, were aware of the actual circumstances of the country, felt themselves put aside very often by the Government in the exercise of their control over this force. Anything that tended

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to give the control more strongly into the hands of Government must be objectionable to those resident magistrates. It had always been an important object in Ireland to induce the gentry to reside in the country, and to take part in the different county and local subjects; but of late years he thought they had been put aside in a great degree; the Government—he did not speak of one Government more than another—very often acted without consultation with the magistracy, seeming to consider the police force as a sort of gens d'armerie, which ought to act without any concert with the local authorities. This proceeding had produced a very bad effect; and had led many gentlemen of rank and property, who were in the commission of the peace, to decline acting as magistrates. In the part of the country with which he was connected, there was great difficulty in getting magistrates to act, and, consequently, a stipendiary magistrate had been appointed. As a resident landlord, he must say he felt this state of things very much. He did not wish to give any opinion to-night upon the proposition of his noble Friend; but when it was proposed to take the constabulary expense from the counties, to be paid by Government, and that this was considered a boon, he thought the effect of it upon the local magistracy well worth serious consideration.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, there could be no question of the good policy of removing the expense of supporting the constabulary force in the present state of Ireland; and, therefore, he had entire confidence in that part of the Bill. It was in the nature of a substitute, throwing upon the Government the burden that had hitherto been borne by the Irish counties. He was aware, as the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had stated, and as the noble Earl (the Earl of Devon) had also stated, that the suggestion originally proceeded from the Land Commissioners; but it came from them in a totally different view from that now proposed by her Majesty's Government. It came from them in the nature of a proposed change in the principle of the constabulary force, and not with the intention of throwing the charge upon Government. The Commissioners proposed to confine the relief precisely to the original amount of the constabulary charge imposed upon each county; but in the plan now brought forward this view was put out of the question; it was brought forward as forming a part of that measure of justice
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which, both in England and in Ireland, it was wished to extend to the occupiers of land in consequence of the great and important measures to be submitted to Parliament. In their endeavours to accomplish this efficiently, the Government had lost sight of that equality of taxation which the Commissioners recommended; and the objections of his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) implied, that the relief would be far greater in the disturbed districts than in those counties where perfect tranquillity prevailed. Without wishing to pronounce a hasty opinion upon this matter, or to do more than urge upon Her Majesty's Government to take into consideration the future benefits which Ireland would derive from being relieved from a portion of local taxation, he would infinitely prefer the proposition thrown out by his noble Friend; if the annual expenditure on public works were guaranteed, then the measures adverted to might be adopted, and the country relieved from the expense of supporting the constabulary. He approved of this upon general principles, having always observed that public works had been more beneficial than any other class of measures; and they had this particular advantage, of being always before the minds of the people, constantly reminding the whole population of the services and benefits rendered to them by the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
LORD COTTENHAMsaid, it was essential to the success of the measure before the House that it should be founded on justice, and not diminish the security which parties held for advances of money. He alluded to those who had advanced funds in furtherance of private improvement. In the course of last year various schemes had been suggested, for the purpose of giving facilities for obtaining money to be advanced for improvements in land, affording at the same time ample security to those who had interests in remainder. He could see cases in which great injustice would be done under the Bill as it now stood. He would suppose the case of an Irish estate mortgaged—it might be to the amount of its whole value. The proprietor might get an advance of money under the provisions of this Act, and the person who had advanced the former mortgage would then find himself ousted by the State coming in as a first mortgagee. He would suppose another case; namely, one arising from the provision affecting estates that were settled. The holder of an estate

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might be only a tenant for life, and the next person in remainder might have a much larger interest in the estate. The tenant for life would get a grant of money under this Bill, to be expended at his own discretion. He might, perhaps, be an experimental agriculturist, and might fail in effecting the improvements which he would attempt. In such a case, even though having a very limited interest in the estate, he would, under the Bill as it now stood, have the exclusive power of charging the estate, without being obliged to hold any communication with the remainder-man. He would beg, on this subject, to call the attention of the noble Earl by whom the Bill had been introduced, to the Act passed last Session, some of the provisions of which could be adopted in the present Act without deviating from the general principles laid down.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELwished to be permitted to state, as a resident landed proprietor in the south of Ireland, and as a Poor Law guardian, that the noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle) had not exaggerated the distress existing in that part of the country. He could state of his own knowledge that want and misery were staring the inhabitants of the district to which he alluded in the face. Although there was great anxiety shown by Parliament to facilitate the Irish Railway Bills, still he much feared that these works could not be brought forward in sufficient time to give employment to the starving population in the approaching season of scarcity. Even at present potatoes were selling in his own neighbourhood at the prices which they usually brought in June and July, the dearest months in the year; and in the course of another month he feared there would be no potatoes to be had at any price. He also dreaded that disturbances would break out in the country. He resided in a part of the country that was usually quiet and tranquil; but within the last fortnight or ten days appearances of disturbance had shown themselves even there. Large bodies of armed men had been seen traversing the country at mid-day, and some murders had been committed. He had been lately speaking on the subject to some of his oldest and most respectable tenants, and their usual declaration was, that before two months passed away there would be a civil war in the country. He trusted that these apprehensions would prove ill-grounded; but if the people should fail in procuring
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food and employment, they would undoubtedly be driven to desperation and violence. He trusted, therefore, that every facility would be given for the employment of the people, and that, too, without loss of time. He wished to take that opportunity of alluding to another subject. He had received several letters from mill-owners in the north of Ireland, expressing the greatest apprehension at the effect which the Drainage Bill introduced by Her Majesty's Government would have on their interests. He trusted the Government would adopt precautions to prevent the interests of the millowners being sacrificed without proper compensation being afforded to them.
The EARL of ST. GERMANSbegged to explain that no new principle of law was involved in the present Bill.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that in consequence of the influx of English capital in Irish mortgages, the rate of interest payable on mortgages in that country had been reduced, within two years, from 6 per cent. to 4 per cent. This had taken place under the impression amongst English capitalists that they had full security for their money; but after the passing of the present Bill he feared that mortgages on Irish estates would be soon at a discount, because they would then rest on no security at all. He did not wonder at what had fallen from the noble Earl (Mountcashel) on the alarm existing on the subject of the Drainage Bill in Ireland. Their Lordships were perhaps not aware that that Act would give power of creating corporations indefinitely all over Ireland. There might be a thousand corporations, having unlimited power over this sort of occupiers, called into existence by that Act, and their Lordships might perhaps act very properly in exercising a little caution before they allowed it to pass.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned.