HL Deb 25 August 1846 vol 88 cc999-1009
The MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

, in moving that the House should go into Committee on this Bill, said, that the circumstances which had rendered it necessary would be found detailed in the volume of correspondence which had already been laid before their Lordships. Their Lordships were aware of the disease which had appeared in the potato crop in Ireland in November last, and of the steps which the last Government had taken to relieve the distress which had been occasioned by that calamity. Of the measures of Her Majesty's late Government in supplying Indian meal he entirely approved. Within the last month, however, appearances had exhibited themselves which too surely indicated an aggravation of the misfortune which had befallen the people of Ireland last year; and it therefore became necessary to review the measures which the late Government had carried, with a view to their temporary relief. With respect to the supply of food, he was enabled to state that there was no intention to introduce it upon the account of Government. He was sure that supplies would not be wanting, if the demands of the people required supplies, and that they would be amply met by private enterprise. It was determined, therefore, that the Government would not become importers either of corn or meal, but would leave its importation to be regulated by the ordinary course of trade. He did not mean to say, however, that Her Majesty's Government would feel themselves precluded from exercising, in case of urgent necessity, a superintendence over the distribution of these supplies at home, which could be done without injuring the importers. With reference to the supply of food, therefore, he had little to say; but one important object of the Bill related to the amount of wages which was to be secured to the people of Ireland. Much might be, and doubtless had been, done by the benevolence of individuals; but under existing circumstances it was not proper to rely entirely on the exercise of that benevolence. The material object, therefore, of the Bill, was to provide that in cases of distress there should not be wanting a due employment of the poor and labouring classes in that country. Greater powers were undoubtedly given in the Bill for this purpose, than he should wish to see entrusted permanently to any officer, however exalted his rank. Under the circumstances, however, it had been determined that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on the representations of certain districts, should authorize advances to be made by Her Majesty's Government, the whole of such advances to be ultimately repaid by the districts in question, and the period of repayment to be spread over not less than ten years, by instalments, with interest upon such advances, at the rate of three and a half per cent. That was the principle on which Her Majesty's Government must chiefly depend for the reduction of the amount of that evil which must be expected to occur. Still, Her Majesty's Government would not be deaf to every demand that might be made upon them for assistance, nor would they leave this Bill to take its course without holding out any further aid. The Government would still continue to make advances upon the application of grand juries or private individuals, for making great lines of public communication; and they would make a grant from the Treasury of one-half of the funds required for the purpose, and would also make further advances, if necessary, in the form of loans. Another object which the Government had in view, was to make advances in furtherance of local subscriptions for charitable purposes. The works which would be carried on under this system, although they might be contributed towards by private individuals, and contributed in a sense in many cases for private purposes, would nevertheless be under the control of the officers of the Government, directed by Government engineers, and so constructed that they would be calculated to contribute in the greatest possible degree to the prosperity of the nation, as well as to private and individual advantage. He had now stated a general outline of the three measures which the Government proposed, and having done so he would express a hope that the crisis which now existed in Ireland, however it might be productive of suffering for the present, was calculated to lead ultimately to good, and that it would be followed by such a change in the social system of that country as would place its population in that position amongst the populations of the world which all their Lordships desired to see. He believed that the course of conduct which the Government proposed to adopt would be a great benefit to the small farmer, if farmers they could be called, who had no capital, by affording such a constant supply of work as would show the perfect possibility of maintaining support by day labour. He trusted that, besides raising the character of the Irish farmer, those measures were calculated to do much good in improving the social condition of the country; and thus, whatever bitterness of feeling or suffering might be caused by the present distress, it would ultimately have a good effect, Parliament in the meantime doing all that lay in its power to alleviate, ameliorate, and remedy the evil which existed. The noble Marquess moved that the House go into Committee on the Bill.

LORD MONTEAGLE

said, he should be happy if he could see so clearly the way of escape from the evils under which Ireland now suffered from the loss of the potato crop. He agreed in the propriety of the Government not purchasing the Indian corn which would be required; but he would remark that the circumstances under which the late Government had acted last December, and the previous state of the law respecting the importation of Indian corn, were such as justified the late Government in adopting the course which they had adopted. It was, in his opinion, the duty of the Government to facilitate by every means in its power the distribution of food to the people in such a calamity as that which now afflicted Ireland; and with respect to supplying employment for labour, he could not avoid expressing his regret that they had not, at an earlier period of the Session, when they had a larger attendance of Peers, been afforded an opportunity of discussing the subject. He feared, however, that his noble Friend and the Government would be disappointed in the effect of this part of the Bill. Only that very morning he had received an account from the south of Ireland, which showed that the present state of things exceeded the possibility of any anticipation of their Lordships. It was from a most undoubted authority, a gentleman who was a magistrate in that part of Ireland, and was dated only on the 23rd instant. The writer said— You cannot conceive anything so frightful as the universal aspect of the potatoes. Since I came to this part of the country, I have not seen one single field that is not rapidly approaching to destruction. In the county of Cork you may travel for miles together without seeing, for field after field, anything above ground but blackened stalks of potatoes. In this part of the country the disease has not advanced so far; but the different stages follow each other so quickly, that it will not be long first. So far from the accounts in the papers being exaggerated, I read none that appears to me to be short of the truth. From this you may judge of the immense magnitude of the coming evil. The effect of this destruction was, that there never was in modern times so small a stock of potatoes which were calculated for food, as compared with the population and the period during which it would be required to provide food for the population. It ought to be recollected that the peasantry of Ireland grew their own food, and they were, by this disease of the potato crop, deprived of the first necessary of life. Under these circumstances, therefore, however they might respect the doctrines of strict political science and of non-interference, yet they would not be doing their duty as legislators if they stood by and allowed the people to perish without interfering to prevent it. He had great confidence in the effect which would be produced by a free trade in Indian corn, and it afforded him great gratification to find that the people of Ireland had not only accommodated themselves to the use of Indian corn as food, but had begun to prefer it to their usual food; and he should remark that, with the supplies of that article which were expected from the other side of the Atlantic and the ports of the Mediterranean, there was no reason for anticipating any deficiency in the supply of that description of food for the Irish people. He trusted that Government, in order to render that supply of the greatest possible advantage to the Irish people, would adopt adequate means to enable them to have that corn ground into flour. That was the more necessary in Ireland, inasmuch as Ireland was not a bread-eating country, with mills scattered over the face of it in such numbers as over England, the mills in Ireland being rather commercial in their character, and used in a great degree for grinding corn for the purpose of exportation. He had great reliance on the advantages which might be expected from the change which had taken place in the law with respect to the importation of Indian corn; and he also had great reliance on the improvement which would be made in the Board of Works. With respect to the grant of 50,000l., he was of opinion that it would be quite inadequate to the purpose for which it was proposed, and he would observe that the mode of making the grant was a most important consideration, for grants might be so well regulated that they would become the means of conferring great benefit upon the country. By enforcing private subscriptions in aid of the grants, they would adopt a course well calculated to call out the latent resources of the country; but if this grant were made by itself, without anything else, it would be ineffectual in calling out these private energies. He had it on the opinion of Lord Devon, of Sir Richard Bourke, and others, that the people of Ireland did not want gratuitous relief, but grants, made conditional, on private contributions being brought in aid, which would call forth the resources of the country, without which no good could be done. Since the year 1834, no less than 213 miles of road had been constructed in that country; for that purpose 13,300l. was contributed hy private individuals, who made their contributions on the principle of their being in aid of the grant from the Government. In addition to those 213 miles, twenty-one had been made by his noble Friend near him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) and given to the public. Upwards of fourteen miles had been made by another individual, and yet for the whole of that there was a grant of only 30,000l.; whereas the whole expenditure was 123,000l., laid out under proper superintendence, as improving the condition of the country, and aiding the wages of the labourer. This was the system which at a moment of exigency was to be upset by this vote of 50,000l. As a vote it was inadequate to meet the difficulty. Though he bore now, as on former occasions he had borne, his humble tribute of approbation to the Report of Lord Devon's Commission, yet he did say that there were principles in that report, and those principles were the ones on which he feared the present Bill was founded, which were perfectly indefensible. Now, with regard to the baronial sessions, and the rate which was to be levied on the Poor-law valuation. That proposition involved the principle of contributions from the landlord, as well as from the occupying tenant, and he fully acquiesced in that principle; but in taking the Poor-law valuation they were adopting a valuation which was so fraudulent and unjust, that only the other night the noble Marquess thought it necessary to introduce another Bill in its place. Would their Lordships believe, so variable was the valuation, that property valued to-day at 64l. might be valued to-morrow at 73l., property valued at 67l. might be raised to 106l., at 81l. to 119l., and so on? The result of that system was that they had inequality, injustice, oppression, and fraud everywhere; and yet by the way of popularizing the present rate, in order to make it palatable, they engrafted the present measure upon that defective valuation, and expected that it would remove the miseries of Ireland. He objected to this part of the Bill also, because all of a sudden in the month of August, and without notice, they were about to bring the whole tithe-property of the Church into this assessment—whatever there was of mines, of canals, of railways, of fisheries, of mills, of tolls, the whole of the turbary of Ireland, at present free from rates, all were to be brought into this assessment; and this in so unfair a manner, that if the valuation were 50 per cent below the actual value, the tithes would be rated at their full amount; and he stated that that was a most mischievous part of the Bill. But he had another and still more fatal objection to this Bill, and that was, that it practically involved the introduction of the principle of out-door relief for the poor of Ireland. Whether that was a right or a wrong principle, he did say that it was the greatest social change that was ever made in any country. He did not stop to examine the principle; but whether for good or for evil, no change was ever proposed in reference to the social economy of any country in the world of so great a magnitude as that which they were now taking blindfold. He contended that the groundwork of their measure should have been the "profitable" employment of the people. But if they set their baronial sessions to work without reference to "profitable" employment, they would be making "relief" the only object, whilst they would be wasting capital, and destroying the funds that would employ labour. If they adopted that step, he feared that they would have to look back to the present evil as a lesser calamity than that which it would inflict upon the country. If they had adopted a different plan, they would not have limited themselves to the 30,000l., but would have used the. 160,000l. they had wasted by the vote of last night; they would have developed the internal resources of Ireland, and they would have escaped the evil of out-door relief. The other measures of the Government would be of little avail: the Drainage Bill was inapplicable to Ireland, the Pier Bill was inadequate to its purpose; and this the only Bill on which they could rely, would not call forth the expenditure of a farthing from the pockets of individuals. It was given in evidence by Mr. Griffiths, that not only were those subscriptions to relieve the distress contributed in sixpences and shillings by the poorer classes, but that the resident landlords had doubled the number of the labourers on their domains, and had begun a series of improvements on their estates by draining at a distance from their residences. There were also cases in which subscriptions had been largely given for improvements; Lord Stradbroke had contributed 500l. to make a road, and Lord Courtown had given his security for 1,000 guineas for other improvements; and if they now fixed this general tax upon the landlords, would not this general expenditure of capital be withdrawn? Let them take, for example, the estate of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which was a model estate. Suppose the Besborough estate were surrounded by lands on which there was a pauper population, would it not be unjust towards him that the very amount of his own generous improvement should be made the measure of his own taxation, and that the amount of the neglect of his neighbours should be the measure of their demands upon them? The Bill would be a greater blow against the improvements that were now going on than anything that had yet taken place. The proposition would work against those who were willing to amend the state of the tenantry on their own estates, and was against the principle of the clause moved by the Duke of Wellington in the Poor Law; they were now departing from that principle, and making a well-managed estate pay a greater tax in proportion to the improvement, whilst the rack-rented unimproved land in the vicinity would have the benefit. This was a rank injustice, and it was upon those grounds he thought the Bill would prove mischievous. In confirmation of the view which he took of this part of the Bill, he would refer the House to a communication which he had received from a number of landed gentry in the county of Limerick. Those gentlemen stated that the unanimous opinion of every one was, that the effect of the Government proposition would be to compel the landlord who was giving a great deal of employment to dismiss his own labourers, and to lot them go on the baronial funds. That was what was apprehended by the gentlemen of Limerick; and they added that they were willing to be responsible for the state of the tenantry on their own estates. There could be no doubt but that the consequence of the measure would be that the more an estate was improved, the more it would be taxed; and that the more other estates were rack-rented and ruined, the less they would have to bear. He had already said that this Bill would introduce a system of outdoor relief for the poor of Ireland, and he defied any noble Lord to distinguish the principle which this Bill laid down from that of out-door relief. It was out-door relief, and nothing less. With the permission of the House he would trouble them with the evidence of a few gentlemen well qualified to give an opinion upon this point. Mr. Senior stated before the Committee in 1846— If to the existing Poor Law in Ireland were superadded out-door relief, I believe that all the evils produced in England in 300 years would be produced in Ireland in ten. It would be an entire confiscation. Mr. Lewis stated— My belief is that the introduction of a system of out-door relief in Ireland, similar to what obtains in England, would be a most disastrous measure. I believe that in a few years, however carefully guarded the law might be, and however trustworthy and intelligent the administration of the relief might be, it would absorb all the surplus produce of the soil, and I think in a short time deteriorate the condition of the persons for whose benefit it was introduced. I think it would impoverish the rich without improving the condition of the poor. Mr. Gulson said— I have no hesitation in expressing my decided opinion that anything approaching to out-door relief in Ireland would very soon swamp the whole property of the country. Mr. Twiselton said— I conceive it would be a fatal step to introduce any system of out-door relief for the unemployed population of Ireland. Mr. Clements said— I think the advocates of out-door relief in Ireland have very little knowledge of the inextricable web of difficulties they would get into if such a law was passed. And the Commissioners, in their Third Report, which was signed by Archbishop Whately, by Archbishop Murray, by Lord Fingal, and others, were equally strong upon the subject. They stated— If any considerable portion of the rental of the country were devoted to the support of unprofitable labour, it would be in a great degree consumed without being reproduced, commerce must decay, the demand for agricultural produce, except potatoes, and coarse clothing, must contract, rents must diminish, while the number of persons out of employment and in need of support must increase, and general ruin be the result. It may, however, be said that England, with the Poor Law system we condemn, has become great and flourishing, whilst Ireland, without it, is in a state of semi-barbarism. The fact is so. But because extraordinary strength has withstood poison, it does not follow that poison should be prescribed as a remedy for weakness. He trusted that his anticipations, or rather his fears, might prove visionary; but he hoped that what he had stated on the system of out-door relief in Ireland would at least load some of Her Majesty's Council to say whether they did not believe it necessary, in the application of this Bill, to guard against an extension of it, which would lead, not only from its consequences there, but from the expectations which it would call forth in this country, to the most serious and enormous difficulties.

The EARL of WICKLOW

said, he thought Her Majesty's Government had shown a sound judgment in the mode which they had adopted of meeting the present difficulties of Ireland. At the same time, he should say that it was impossible for the late Government to have acted otherwise than they had done, considering the sudden manner in which the evil came upon them. He especially approved of the engagement made by the present Ministry, that they would not be concerned as importers of provisions, as he felt convinced that it would lead to a sufficient supply for the wants of the country, whatever they might be. He begged to say that in everything which fell from the noble Marquess he fully concurred. As to the means which the people would possess of obtaining food, when introduced, it was quite evident that, in the mode which was adopted by this Bill, certain evils must be expected to arise. It was totally impossible to expect, if they adopted the mode of taxation proposed, that the same degree of liberality and charity on the part of private individuals would be exercised as if no such taxation existed. The thing was out of the question. Under these circumstances, he thought that no plan of relief could be more eligible, or more likely to meet the exigencies of the case, than that which Her Majesty's Government had adopted. He regretted that the valuation of the existing Poor Law had been taken as the basis of the levy to be made under this Bill, as it would take the county cess collectors away from a system to which they had hitherto been accustomed. As to the point alluded to by his noble Friend respecting all property being liable to taxation, he should say that, considering the position of the clergy, surrounded as they were by a poor population, and considering the many claims that were made upon them, he thought they ought to be excluded from the tax. This was, he thought, the only objectionable clause in the Bill. At that late hour he would not trespass further on their Lordships' time; and he would conclude by giving his thanks to Her Majesty's Government for the anxiety which they had shown to meet the distress in Ireland. He thought no measure could be adopted that was better prepared or more constitutional than that which had been decided upon. He trusted that it would work beneficially; and he rested satisfied that if it did not, other aid would be furnished to the country to supply its deficiency.

The DUKE of GRAFTON

said, the great object of the Bill should be to obtain a proper supply of food for the people, and in effecting that object he feared the present measure would fail. He believed that a great cause of the failure of the potato crop in many districts arose from an imperfect cultivation of the soil; and if the labourers were, under this Bill, to be taken away from the cultivation of the land to be employed in building bridges and constructing roads, agriculture would be left in a worse condition than before.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE

said, his noble Friend must be aware that no material alteration could be made in the nature of the Bill, as it could not be sent down again to the other House without great danger of losing it altogether for the present Session. Considering the great latitude which was given with regard to the works to be constructed, and the mode of applying the money to be raised under the Bill, he thought that there was no great danger of the evils arising which his noble Friend who had just sat down appeared to dread. As to the principle of dividing the expenses equally between the landlord and the tenant, it was, he believed, one in the justice of which they would all agree. The expenditure under the Bill would prove most useful, in the double character of effecting permanent and valuable improvements in the country, and at the same time of affording immediate relief to the people. With regard to the principal objection of his noble Friend, he denied altogether that the Bill would lead to the adoption of a system of permanent out-door relief. He was as much opposed to the introduction of such a system as his noble Friend could be; and he fully concurred with him that it was a system of a vicious character, and one which, if adopted, must lead to the complete confiscation of the property of Ireland.

Bill reported without Amendment.

House adjourned.