Lords Sitting of 3 August 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Burial Service (No. 2); Marriages (Ireland) Act Amendment.
2a. Baths and Washhouses; Militia Ballots Suspension; Ordnance Survey; Newfoundland.
Received the Royal Assent. Sugar Duties; New Zealand Loan; Ropemakers; Battersea Park; Chelsea Bridge and Embankment.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Eglinton, from the City of London, and the Royal Burgh of Ayr, for the Total Repeal of the Game Laws.—By Earl Powis, from Southampton, and several other places, in favour of the Small Debts Bill.—From the Wilsden and Wakefield Mechanics Institutions, in favour of the Corresponding Societies and Lecture Rooms Bill.—From several Proprietors of Baths in the Metropolis, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Baths and Washhouses Bill.—By Earl Powis, from Llanwddyn, Llangynew, and Abergavenny, praying that a Clause may be inserted in the Local Courts Bill requiring a knowledge of the Welsh Language by the Judges of those Courts in Wales, and that such Bill may speedily pass into a Law.

PENSIONS—INFANT SCHOOLS.
LORD BROUGHAMmoved for a Return of all Pensions granted since the 1st of January, 1838, out of the 1,200 l. Fund, stating the yearly amount, and whether the recipient held any permanent place under Government at the date of the grant. In moving for this return, he had no design of objecting to any pension granted by the present or the late Governments, for they appeared to him to have been dictated by a judicious exercise of the Royal favour; and the last occasion on which the power had been exercised met perhaps his approval more than any other; he meant the pension to Mr. Wilderspin, one of the persons most actively employed in a valuable branch of education. But he must correct an historical error into which his noble Friend at the head of the Government had fallen; for, though an historian, he had allowed his poetical imagination to get the better of the stern fact, when he gave to Mr. Wilderspin the credit of being the founder as well as the promoter of infant schools. They were founded in 1800 by Oberlin; and afterwards, in 1810, they were adopted by Fellenberg. As early, however, as 1802, Mr. Robert Owen had founded them at New Lanark, which had been seen by hundreds. Some time afterwards Mr. John Smith, late a Member of the other House, himself (Lord Brougham), the Marquess of Lansdowne, Mr. Mill, Mr. Fowell Buxton, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Wilson, and three others, subscribed 100 l. each, and established a school in London, for which they procured from Mr. Owen the assistance of Mr. Buchanan, as master, and he remained for twenty years. Mr. Wilson, one of their body, next founded a school in Spitalfields, and it was for that school that he obtained those services of Mr. Wilderspin, which were indeed beyond all praise from him.

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It was certain, therefore, that Robert Owen was the founder of infant schools in this country, and that Mr. Wilderspin was not the founder, though he was the active promoter. No man, however, more deserved a testimonial—for testimonials it was the fashion to call them, now they were so common that at the end of a successful season the manager of the opera had his testimonial, or tribute, as it was called in Ireland—in no case had it been more innocently gained or more richly deserved than by Mr. Wilderspin.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he could assure his noble and learned Friend, that however many witnesses it might have been his fortune to call to his aid in the course of his professional career, he had never put one into the box who could give more effectual testimony on this subject than he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) could. He concurred in all that had been stated by his noble and learned Friend: there could be no doubt that Mr. Owen was the founder of the infant schools in this country. Mr. Wilderspin and Mr. Oberlin had greatly contributed to propagate the system, especially the former of these gentlemen, in Dublin, where he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had witnessed the beneficial working of it.
Returns ordered.

CASE OF THE EARL OF DUNDONALD.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he had to present a petition from a distinguished individual—he meant the Earl of Dundonald, better perhaps known as Lord Cochrane—to the subject of which he begged the attention of their Lordships and Her Majesty's Government. The petitioner referred to the great misfortunes which had pressed and were pressing upon him—misfortunes which he did not think he had done anything to deserve. The noble petitioner, in referring to his past misfortunes, now for the first time alluded to the real author of all his calamities, in the person of a party in whose handwriting a paper was found which clearly established his guilt, and Lord Dundonald's innocence. This party, it would be recollected, fled the country, and would not stand his trial. When brought up for judgment, knowing the real facts of the case, Mr. Topping, Mr. Serjeant Best (the late Lord Wynford), and himself (Lord Brougham), who were counsel for Lord Dundonald, urged him to avert it, by declaring who the guilty person was; but such was his delicate sense of
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honour towards a near relation, to whom he lay under great personal obligations during his youth, that no power of entreaty they could use could prevail on him to do so, and he went before the court to receive its judgment without disclosing the facts of the case. The sentence pronounced at that time continued unrepealed by law, and the banner which, as a Knight of the Bath, he had won by services which in point of gallantry would bear comparison with any of the proudest periods of our naval or military history, had been removed, and he continued degraded. In 1833, Her Majesty's Government, of which he (Lord Brougham) was then a Member, restored the noble Earl to his rank in the navy, and he was now a Vice Admiral. But he complained that the sentence recorded against him in a court of law remained unrepealed by Act of Parliament. The noble and learned Lord recapitulated the well-known services of Lord Dundonald to this country and to several of the South American States in their struggle for independence. The noble petitioner also stated that he had claims against the South American Governments for 75,000 l. prize money, earned by him whilst serving at Chili and Peru, besides 25,000 l. for his half pay, all of which money the American Governments had in their coffers; but on the principle of what was called repudiation, which had, it seemed, extended to South America, they would not allow him to touch one farthing of it. This money he had earned hardly in their service, and he called on the Government of this country and their Lordships to give him such an amount of countenance as would show the Americans that he was not in that degraded state in which they were supposed to believe him to be at the time the sentence in question was passed. One kind word said on his behalf to the South American Governments would no doubt enable him to have his claims more speedily adjusted. There was another subject mentioned in the petition, which no doubt many of their Lordships had frequently heard of. It related to the discovery, by Lord Dundonald, of a great destructive power. It was a most important secret—an invention the effects of which in case of any war would be wholly incalculable. The power had been examined by naval officers of great experience, amongst others by Lord Keith and Lord Exmouth, all of whom were astounded at its capabilities. It had also been submitted to the Duke of York, who requested that

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the secret might not be disclosed, and Lord Dundonald had strictly kept it to this hour, He (Lord Brougham) could take it upon himself to say that the invention was quite of a different character to Captain Warner's. Having endured all these misfortunes and never having disclosed his valuable secret, the noble petitioner prayed that the House would be pleased to adopt such measures for securing to him an investigation into the merits of his plan for destroying and dismantling ports and fleets, as to the wisdom of their right honourable House might seem meet.
Petition to lie on the Table.

BATHS AND WASHHOUSES.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbegged leave, in pursuance of notice, to move the Second Reading of a Bill entitled, "An Act to promote the voluntary Establishment in Towns and Boroughs of Public Baths and Washhouses." Although the Bill had this very humble title and ordinary object, it was nevertheless, in his opinion—and he was sure, after a few moments of reflection, would be in the opinion of their Lordships—entitled to considerable respect, from the object which it professed to attain immediately, and still more from all the objects with which it was connected of a still higher nature; because he believed that if there was anything more demonstrable than another, it was the certain effect of teaching men to entertain self-respect and to cultivate those habits which made them seemly in the eyes of others, and enjoy a state of respectability of which they were conscious themselves. That these habits were connected in an imperceptible degree with many of the highest moral and religious virtues, was a proposition of which he was confident, and was also so well assured that their Lordships were convinced, that he hardly felt it necessary to dwell further upon the subject, than to recommend it to their attention as connected with the immediate object of this Bill. This Bill, which had now been sent to their Lordships from the other House of Parliament, where it had passed in the course of the last fortnight, had the good fortune, which was not always incidental to measures of this description, that while, undoubtedly, it attempted to introduce something like a new system in connexion with cleanliness into the policy of this country, it was founded upon facts which must render their Lordships assured of its necessity, and that its
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advantages were far beyond mere speculation; for, thanks to the great influence of individuals—thanks to that spirit of enterprise which in the great cities of this country was perpetually directed to the attainment of great public objects connected with the interests of the poor, there were existing now in England, established within the course of the last year, three, if not four, of these great establishments; two had been erected in London; one had had the experience of a year, and the other was on the point of being opened near Euston-square. The first was in the city, in Glasshouse-yard, and there was also a considerable establishment of the same description in the great town of Liverpool. Having informed himself of the practice connected with these establishments, he felt himself justified in stating to their Lordships that merely at the expense of 1½d., the advantages of bathing could be secured to all classes of the community. He found, that in Glasshouse-yard, at an expense of 377 l., advantages of bathing and washing were given in 63,142 cases. That in the establishment at Liverpool, where an expenditure of between 2,000 l. and 3,000 l. was incurred, the actual profit upon the establishment was something like an interest of 3½ per cent upon the capital expended. All, therefore, that was meant by the present Bill was to give a stimulus to private enterprise; not to crush the enterprise where it had already taken place; not to extinguish those establishments which were now working beneficially for the advantage of the public; not to require of all corporations and vestries in England that they should immediately set up these baths—but to enable the corporations and vestries of every parish, with the consent of the Secretary of State, where they should see fit, to establish these baths, and to establish in connexion with these baths a certain rate of payment, that should make them on the one hand accessible to the poor, and on the other hand remunerative to the town and parish in which they were established. He would take this opportunity of adverting to a petition, presented by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), from parties who had established baths of this description. He knew not what these baths were; but if they existed beneficially, on moderate terms affording the accommodation that was desired and required, it never could be the wish or interest of any corporation or vestry to interfere with them. On the

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contrary, all that was desired was to step in where private enterprise had not established baths of this description, and to afford the accommodation which was wanting, and of which the necessity was so great. It was a striking fact connected with the Glasshouse-yard establishment—that of 60,000 persons who had derived benefit from it, no less than 9,000 had walked from three to five miles to obtain that advantage. As to the establishment which was on the point of being opened, a great many poor persons had dropped in and expressed their anxiety for its opening, leaving their sixpences voluntarily for that purpose. There would be a power given in the Bill to enable corporations and vestries where it should be for the advantage of the parties to purchase the interests in establishments which already existed, and convert them to the public use. There would also be a power, where there were commissions for paving and lighting, to transfer the management of these establishments to those commissioners, who it was thought might be most capable of administering them. He concluded by moving that the Bill be read a second time.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that when he first read the Bill, he was afraid that it might be productive of jobbing, for it enabled vestries to appoint paid servants; and he thought that the love of patronage might induce them to establish these baths for that purpose, when other similar institutions existed, and the whole might be charged on the poor rate. These apprehensions were removed by the speech of the noble Marquess; and he did not think that the charges of jobbing and an addition to the poor rates were well founded; for the noble Marquess had said, that the baths could not be established without the sanction of the Secretary of State. Another objection to this Bill was, that by the thirty-sixth clause there were to be establishments not only for the poorer but higher classes. He believed that there would always be a certain number of persons who would pay the higher rate, and that the effect of it would be to afford an additional security against any burden on the poor rates.
Bill read 2a.

SMALL DEBTS BILL.
House in Committee according to Order.
The EARL of POWISsuggested to the Lord Chancellor that, in the appointment
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of judges in Wales, preference should be given to those persons who were acquainted with the Welsh language.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that undoubtedly it would be a great recommendation that those candidates should be appointed in Wales who were acquainted with the Welsh language; but he was afraid that if Members of the English Bar were to be appointed to these offices, some difficulty would be found in obtaining persons possessing the qualification: he would, however, take care that they should have the preference.
Clauses from 1 to 7 were agreed to.
Clause 8 being proposed,
The LORD CHANCELLORobserved, that there were many ancient courts having jurisdiction over small debts, but the far greater number existed under the provisions of modern Acts of Parliament, and these latter courts had judges. As far as he could gain information, the number of judges now existing of these several courts competent to preside over courts of an enlarged jurisdiction would be about fifty. The Bill, as it stood, proposed that all these courts should be made permanent, and that the judge now presiding over the court should be confirmed as judge of the court. The effect of that would be to supply judges for fifty or sixty courts, but would leave a large number of courts which it was necessary to establish under this Act without any judge; and these fifty or sixty would be without full occupation for their time. He had, therefore, thought it better, not only for the purpose of securing more competent judges, but for the purpose of diminishing the patronage to be exorcised under this Bill, to alter the scheme in this respect, and to appoint the same person judge of as many courts within the neighbourhood of the principal court as he could find time to preside over. That would enable one judge to perform the duties of four or five courts, and would diminish in the same proportion the number of individuals to be selected. In all these courts in which it was proposed to continue the judges, they were appointed under separate Acts of Parliament; and in all these Acts it was provided that their functions should cease after a general measure should have passed. They had no right, therefore, to complain of the operation of this Bill; but they had strong claims to be continued, and in all probability it would be for the benefit of the public that they should continue. The clause, there-

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fore, as it stood, enabled the Lord Chancellor to select those individuals who had presided in these courts to preside in the new district courts to be created by this Act. The effect of this would be, that it would be found there were judges enough of the now-existing courts to take the superintendence of the several districts into which the country would be divided.
EARL FORTESCUEasked whether the judges should be allowed to practise at the bar?
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there was no clause to that effect; out the nature of their duties, having four or five courts to preside over, would make it perfectly impossible that they should practise at the bar. The noble and learned Lord then stated the Amendments he proposed to introduce respecting the appointment of sheriffs and sub-sheriffs, and the regulation of the salaries of the judges. It was as yet very uncertain what the fees would amount to; but he proposed to allow the salary to be made up from fees, the amount not exceeding 1,200 l. a year for the chief judge, afterwards to be converted into a fixed salary.
LORD MONTEAGLEthought care should be taken, while the salaries were raised from fees, not to allow a vested interest to be created that might be alleged as an objection to fixing the salary afterwards. This had sometimes been the case, and if the fees exceeded the amount of salary, a claim was made for compensation; if they were less, a demand was made upon the public fund to bring them up to that amount.
The LORD CHANCELLORwas understood to state that the objection had been provided for.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the noble and learned Lord had very properly extended the standing of the barristers who were to hold office under the Act to seven years; but he thought in that seven years should be included the time that in many cases was most efficiently spent in practising as a special pleader under the bar.
The remaining clauses, with some verbal Amendments, agreed to, and the Report was received.
House adjourned.