Lords Sitting of 24 April 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Railway, &c. Deposits; Commons Inclosure.
2a. Deodands Abolition; Death by Accidents Compensation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Redesdale, from Inverness, and several other places, for the Better Observance of, and for the prevention of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on, the Sabbath.—From Lichfield, for the Adoption of a Measure for the Employment and Reformation of Discharged Prisoners.—By Lord Beaumont, and Earl of Eldon, from several places, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.—By the Duke of Cleveland, from Durham, in favour of the Corn Laws.—From Incorporation of Gardeners of the Royal Burgh of Glasgow, against the Burghs (Scotland) Bill.—From Noblemen and others of the County and the County of the Town of Galway, praying for the Advancement of Public Money for the carrying on of certain Public Works in Ireland.

DEODANDS ABOLITION BILL AND DEATHS BY ACCIDENT COMPENSATION BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that in rising to move the second reading of the two Bills which he had laid on their Lordships' Table, it was, he believed, not necessary that he should say more than a very few words, as he was not aware that any opposition was likely to be offered to his Motion. One of these Bills was for the abolition of deodands, and the other was for granting compensation in cases of death by accident. Under the existing law, the relatives of
968
the person killed could receive no compensation, no matter what the degree of negligence occasioning the death might be. Any pecuniary mulct that might be inflicted would go to the Crown, or to the lord of the manor; and the formalities were such that it was hardly possible that an inquiry before the coroner could be so conducted as afterwards to stand fire in the Court of Queen's Bench. In the progress of the Bill of last Session through their Lordships' House, his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack had been authorized by Her Majesty to give Her Majesty's gracious consent to the introduction of the measure; and he had no doubt that a similar favour would be extended to this Bill. With regard to the question of deodands, he might mention, that Mr. Wakley, the coroner for the county of Middlesex, a gentleman very active and of very great experience as a coroner, had authorized him to say that he had found no benefit whatever to arise from the present law of deodands. He (Lord Campbell) had a great respect for the common law; but still he felt that there could be no doubt that some of its doctrines were not applicable to the present state of society. One of these doctrines was, that the life of a man was so valuable that they could not put any estimate upon it in case of a death by accident; and, therefore, if a man had his leg broken, on account of negligence on the part of coach-proprietors or of a railway company, he had his remedy in a court of justice; but if the negligence were still grosser, and if a life were destroyed, there was no remedy whatever. In Scotland, and in foreign countries, the general rule was, that where there was a wrong which worked injuriously to another, the law gave compensation; and that law had been acted on in a recent instance in France—the trial of M. de Beauvallon on a charge of murder; but, in this country, if death ensued, the civil injury merged in the felony; and this state of the law was, he thought, highly discreditable. He was sorry to perceive that some disposition appeared to exist among hon. and learned Gentleman elsewhere to oppose this measure; but this he could say, that his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice of England had expressed his unqualified approbation of its merits. Some of his learned Friends thought, however, that the law of England was absolute perfection, and that any attempt to infringe upon it should be resisted.

969
He was told, that the resistance to this measure, in the other House of Parliament, would be also increased by the influence of railway companies there, and that this influence was so great that one railway company alone could muster no less than eighty votes. But though there might be a great many hon. Gentlemen in the House of Commons proprietors in railway companies, he trusted that when they came to consider these Bills, they would forget that they were directors, and consider only that they were citizens and subjects, and that, as men, it was their duty to give their support to them.
LORD LYTTELTONsaid, it might be remembered that last year he had introduced a Bill having the same object as the measure now before the House; and he only rose at present to express his great satisfaction that the subject had fallen into so much more able hands. He would support both these Bills; but he would confess that he viewed with some anxiety their progress through the other House of Parliament. The objections to them were, however, he believed, rather of a technical nature than of any other kind, and he trusted they might be provided against.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he certainly agreed with his noble and learned Friend, and with the noble Lord who had just spoken in favour of these Bills. He was one of those who had attended most carefully on the Committee on this matter, and he was not aware until it had been now stated that the objections alluded to were entertained against the measure elsewhere. Nothing could be more clear than the grounds on which his noble and learned Friend had rested these very important measures. The law of England was, with regard to the subject of compensation for loss of life, an exception to the law of every other country; and this very fantastical reason was given for a very bad law—the badness of the law being only equalled by the badness of the reason—that the value of life was so very great that nothing could be a compensation for it: because they could not give an infinite value for a life, they refused to give any value at all for it. The argument, in fact, blew hot and cold, because it made life either infinitely valuable, or of no value whatever. He thought they were much indebted to his noble and learned Friend for having taken up the subject, and he trusted that both Bills would be allowed to become law.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, as it was necessary to obtain the assent of the
970
Crown to the passing of a Bill on the subject of deodands, he had applied to Her Majesty last Session, and had obtained Her Majesty's assent to the Bill then before the House, and he thought he could undertake to obtain the assent of the Crown in favour of the present measure also. As to the other Bill, he thought it would be worth while to ascertain what were the technical grounds entertained against it in the other House of Parliament, in order that this might be provided against.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, the assent of the Crown could be given to the Bill at any time.
Bills read 2a.

PROGRESS OF THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, a Notice of Motion had been given for that evening for taking into consideration the evidence reported to the House by the Select Committee on the Building of the Houses of Parliament, which he had now to move should be discharged. He did not wish to make such a Motion as that at present, because he thought, from what seemed to be the opinion of their Lordships' House on the last night that the subject was debated, it was better to leave the matter, at least for the present, in the hands of Her Majesty's Government. He would therefore move, with their Lordships' permission, that the Order be discharged; but, at the same time, he intended to ask his noble Relative at the head of the Woods and Forests what progress had been made in this matter; for whatever confidence might be placed in that department of the Government, they could not overlook the importance of having a subject in which they were so much interested kept under their Lordships' immediate eye. There was one answer given by Mr. Barry, in the course of the recent evidence, with which he was not altogether satisfied. He was told that it had been generally understood that the Lords would be in their new House at the commencement of the next Session, and in his answer he said—
"I may, however, be permitted to observe that the expectation which their Lordships have been induced to entertain is, I fear, not grounded on any evidence given before the Select Committee. It must depend entirely on circumstances whether they will be able to enter the House in the next Session or not."
Why, it certainly would depend on circumstances, but one of the most material of

971
these circumstances lay in the goodwill and exertion of Mr. Barry himself. He bogged also to say, that he believed there was not a noble Member of the Select Committeee who did not consider that it had been clearly proved by the evidence that it was not only possible, but easy, to have their own House prepared for them by the opening of the next Session, if proper exertion was used. It would be really disgraceful, he would not say to this country, but to this town, considering the great works that were completed in other towns, and the still greater works that were erected in other countries in a short time, if, with due care and exertion, a work so far advanced as was their Lordships' House could not be completed in the time that would elapse before the next Session commenced. There was an express understanding with the House of Commons originally that their Lordships' convenience should in the first instance be provided for; and yet, notwithstanding that engagement, he believed that fifteen or twenty committee-rooms were to be immediately opened in the new building for the use of the Members of the other House. Now, he did not object to that being done for the public service and for public convenience; but he regarded it as affording strong ground for supposing that their Lordships' interests were not attended to as they might be. He really did think that they ought not to be trifled with; and he hoped his noble Relative would be able to inform them what was doing at the present moment; what prospect there was of the House being finished; and what exertions were made to effect that object. He hoped, also, that his noble Relative would be able to hold out a promise that there would be no more squabbles permitted between the architect and Dr. Reid.
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, in answer to the question which his noble Relative had put to him, he would beg leave to set the noble Lord right as to one point, namely, as to the preparation of the committee-rooms of the House of Commons. It was not the case that the House of Commons had issued any order to Mr. Barry to prepare these rooms; but about the first day of the present month the Speaker intimated to the Board of Works that from the 27th of this month there would be a large additional number of committee-rooms wanted for the use of the House of Commons. Either the Speaker or the Sergeant-at-Arms suggested that one or two houses in Palace-yard should be taken for the pur-
972
pose; but on these houses being examined, it was found that they did not afford the necessary accommodation. It was then suggested that new rooms should be built, as was done last year; but these would afford very bad accommodation: and, under these circumstances, he thought it would be much more convenient, and much more economical, if the rooms in the part of the new building, which had been a long time finished, situated near the river, could be put in order. He accordingly made a communication to Mr. Barry, to ascertain from him if it were possible the rooms could be completed within the time. Mr. Barry having expressed an opinion favourable to the proposition, he (Lord Canning) gave him the necessary instructions; and, having inspected the works on the day before, he had no doubt that they would be ready by the day named. It was only yesterday that he had received any intimation from an officer of their Lordships' House, that additional accommodation for Committees of their Lordships would be required; but as there were nineteen of the rooms to which he had alluded in preparation, and as only fifteen were required for the House of Commons, the other four would be ready for their Lordships at the same time. He had also requested Mr. Barry to make another access to their committee-rooms, so that their Lordships' committee-rooms should have a different entrance from that of the committee-rooms of the House of Commons. With regard to the principal question of his noble Relative, he was sorry that he could not answer it in the manner which he desired, namely, that the workmen were again in the New House of Lords, and that the fittings were nearly complete. He was sorry to say that this was not the case. His noble Friend had alluded to certain squabbles and disputes which had arisen between the architect and Dr. Reid. He thought that any one who would read the evidence on the Table would feel that there was something more than mere squabbling in the matter. There were one or two important points which must be decided before the work could be gone through. He had attentively read the evidence taken before the Committee; and he had arrived at the conclusion that, if the Government on its responsibility had urged Mr. Barry to go on with the work until these points were decided, they might put the country to great expense unnecessarily, and their Lordships to still greater inconvenience than they now experienced. He therefore trusted that they would

973
submit to this small sacrifice; as he hoped that in the course of only a few days the matter would be determined. If there had been nothing but the squabbles between the two gentlemen employed in the building which prevented its completion, he admitted that it would have been utterly inexcusable on his part, if he had not at once put an end to them, and if he had not brought these two gentlemen into active co-operation within twenty-four hours. The question in dispute must, however, take some time longer to determine. It had never been clearly shown to his satisfaction that one uniform system of ventilation for the New Houses of Parliament, extending as they did over between eight and nine acres, was feasible. Before any final step was taken in the matter, they should see whether this was advisable or not; and for that purpose they should get the assistance of men of the most eminent ability. He thought that such opinion should be obtained; and before their Lordships sanctioned the application of the system, they should take care that they were not perilling the safety of the building. Feeling this difficulty, which had not been considered, he thought that the best course to follow was to select three gentlemen, who were eminent for their scientific attainments, and were perfectly acquainted with the subject, and from whom he could ensure a sound opinion, to examine the matter and report thereon, so as to enable the Government to act upon their advice. The three gentlemen had further received instructions to the effect that they should consider and report how far this system of ventilation was practicable; and if so, how far Dr. Reid's system of ventilation should be extended to the whole building, or whether it should be restricted to only particular parts, namely, the two Houses, or other parts. Also, wbether the application of the system was advisable as far as applied to particular parts of the building. Also, to report how far Dr. Reid's system was compatible with rendering the building fireproof; and, lastly, as to the opinion they had formed as to how far the plans furnished to the architect in this matter were sufficient; and if further information was necessary, to what extent. These points had been directed, for the purpose of decision, to Mr. Hardwicke, the eminent architect, no doubt known to many of their Lordships; to Professor Graham, the professor of chemistry at the London University; and to Mr. George Stephen-
974
son, the engineer, whose high professional talents and attainments were known to all, and who had paid much attention to the subject of ventilation, and particularly the ventilation of mines. The qualifications of these gentlemen were of the greatest importance in the investigation of this subject. He was aware that at the first blush an objection might be raised to this course, that it would lead to delay. He could assure the House that he had not come to a conclusion on the subject without anxious consideration, and the result was that he had taken upon himself the responsibility of adopting this course. He had reason to believe that the inquiry would be gone into by the gentlemen he had named without delay, and he understood that it need not take more than a few days before they made a report on the subject. When the opinion of these gentlemen was before Her Majesty's Government, it would be enabled to come to an immediate decision. Any arrangements entered into between the Government and Dr. Reid, or the Government and the architect, as well as the opinions of Committees of either House, should be laid on the Table, and it would also be right for the Government to state its views on the subject to Parliament, and thus give noble Lords an opportunity of making any remarks they might deem proper. Before they proceeded he thought that it was necessary to fortify their opinion in the manner which he had stated, instead of going on working at all risks.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that no one could doubt that his noble Friend had given a clear explanation, and had adopted a right mode of proceeding, as well as the most prudent course. Their Lordships were now suffering very much under the processes of Dr. Reid for the purpose of ventilation. The law Lords met in the mornings from ten to five, and suffered most severely from this system. He had never in his life suffered more from cold than he had done that day, sitting in that House, hearing appeals, from half-past ten to five. At the latter hour a change of temperature was always made, or the difference, perhaps, arose from the comfort of having the presence of the great body of their Lordships there. He could assure the House that the noble Marquess had not said too much when he stated that such was the atmosphere in that House during the day that the law Lords were sometimes broiling and sometimes freezing,

975
and this was always the case except when their Lordships attended in the evening for a short time. He hoped that attention would be paid to this subject. In the Committee upstairs there was clear evidence to show that not eight or ten months were required, but that their Lordships could with proper attention get into their new House in the course of a very few weeks: not, however, if they were to wait until every nook and cranny or rat's hole had been exposed to the ventilating process of Dr. Reid. The Library Committee had acted most prudently, for they had barred the door against this plan of ventilation. As it was, they were subject to every inconvenience, owing to this detestable plan of ventilation. No men could be better adapted for the investigation than those gentlemen chosen by his noble Friend. Mr. Hardwicke was an admirable architect, and he wished that he would inoculate his brother architect with some of that activity which he had manifested in building Lincoln's Inn Hall. As to the squabbles alluded to, he knew nothing about them, but it was the bounden duty of the noble Lord to see that no such squabbles arose to prevent the completion of public works. He had heard a few days ago, for the first time, and he did so with indignation, that the works for their new House had been suspended for months, in consequence of the squabbles between these two persons.
LORD CAMPBELLthought that his noble and learned Friend had been rather too severe on his countryman, Dr. Reid. He (Lord Campbell) intended to throw no blame on Mr. Barry, but would suppose that he had conducted himself with the greatest zeal for the public service. His own opinion was that Dr. Reid was a man of eminent science, and that he was very successful in his plan of ventilation. For instance, the present House of Commons was the best large building as regarded ventilation and hearing that he had ever been in. He thought that the Members of the House of Commons would be great fools if they showed any great anxiety to leave that place. He trusted that their Lordships would not prejudge the matter in consequence of the ventilation of their House, but there were great impediments in the way of effectually doing so. As it was, when they met in the day time to hear appeals, they were sometimes in Greenland and sometimes in Bencoolen. He hoped that they would allow no efforts
976
to be spared to procure the completion of the new House.
LORD REDESDALEthought that the noble Viscount at the head of the Woods and Forests had adopted the most judicious course that could be pursued; but he hoped that there would be a thorough understanding that the House would not let the matter proceed in the way it had hitherto done. It would be necessary in a short time for the House to come to a resolution to address Her Majesty that the new House of Lords should be prepared for their reception by the commencement of the next Session. The House of Commons a month ago had said that they must have fifteen new committee-rooms ready by the 27th of April; and these rooms, at the time they were ordered to be got ready, were not in such an advanced state as their Lordships' new House. That building was a single building, that was, it was isolated, and must be ventilated either from under the floor, or from the space between the ceiling and the roof. It was left to Dr. Reid to say which course he should take. The sole question they had to determine regarded the manner or plan of sending hot or cold air into the new House, and this was the only thing that interfered with putting up the new fittings. They had the statement of Mr. Barry that all the internal fittings were ready, and that they only required to be put up. The ceilings and walls were finished, therefore there could not be the slightest doubt that the new House would be ready by the commencement of the next Session.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.