Lords Sitting of 17 March 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1a. Bastard Children; Post Office Offences Act Amendment; Bastardy.
2a. Property Tax; Pauper Lunatics (Ireland).
Reported,—Companies Clauses Consolidation (Scotland).
3a. and passed:—Consolidated Fund.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Bishops of Chester and St. Davids, from Altrincham, and numerous other places, for adopting Measures for the Suppression of Intemperance, especially on the Sabbath.—From Females of Baptist Church, and Society of Friends, Reading, for adopting Measures for Suppressing Seduction and Prostitution.—From Ruislip, for Alteration of Game Laws.—From Justices of the Peace, for the Counties of Berkshire and Wiltshire, for Alteration of Bastardy Clauses in Poor Law Amendment
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Act.—From Lisburne, for Encouragement of Schools in connexion with Church Education Society (Ireland).—By the Earl of Minto, from Presbytery of Perth, and several other places, for Improving the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).—From Grand Jury of Montgomery, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, and in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.

PAROCHIAL SCHOOLMASTERS IN SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Minto, on presenting a petition from the Presbytery of Wigton, and from another place, praying that some better provision should be made for the Parochial Schoolmasters of Scotland, said, this question had been brought under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government last year, and he wished now to ascertain from the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Buccleuch), whether or not Her Majesty's Government intended to do anything decisive on this subject this Session. He apprehended that there were no impediments in the way; or, if there were, they must be such as could easily be removed. He thought that the salary of a parochial schoolmaster ought not to be less than 50 l. a-year; and he was anxious that the law should be so constructed as to deal with the cases of those who misconducted themselves, or who, from other circumstances, were incapable of doing their duty properly. Some provision also should be made for those who through age or infirmity became incapacitated. He would, however, be perfectly satisfied to leave the matter in the hands of Her Majesty's Government, if they would undertake it.
The Duke Buccleuchassured the noble Earl, that this subject had engaged the attention of Her Majesty's Government. It was not without its difficulties, some of minor importance, and others of greater. No doubt that several matters ought to be considered, not only with regard to the provision of annual incomes of schoolmasters, but the state of the law with respect to their appointment and removal. As those were most difficult points to deal with, an investigation before a Committee of their Lordships' House would be the best means of bringing the subject more fully in all its bearings before the Legislature, and such a Committee would be able to decide on the measures which would be most proper to bring forward. He would therefore move for the appointment of a Select Committee, to inquire into the condition of the Parochial Schoolmasters in Scotland.
The Earl of Mintoexpressed his satis-

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faction at the course suggested by the noble Duke.
Motion agreed to.

ANTARCTIC EXPEDITION.
The Earl of Mintosaid, he wished to put a question to the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Wellington) to which he feared the noble Duke would not be prepared to give a satisfactory answer. His question was—whether Her Majesty's Government had it in contemplation to take any measure to facilitate the publication of the very interesting magnetic observations made during the late Antarctic voyage, under the command of Captain Ross. That voyage had been undertaken at the instance of the most scientific men in this country and in other parts of the world. These observations were, at the same time, to be conducted in different parts of Europe, so that comparative information might be obtained on this subject. The voyage and the experiments had been conducted with the utmost skill, and had succeeded beyond expectation; it had led to the most curious and important discoveries, and had added greatly to the advancement of science. Her Majesty's Government had very liberally contributed the sum of 2,000 l. towards the expenses of publishing the researches of the departments of Botany and Natural History; but nothing had yet been done towards the expenses of making available the more important branch of the undertaking, which was the magnetical and meteorological observations. He understood that it had been in contemplation to publish the results of these observations through the means of the Royal Society, the funds of which institution were totally inadequate for the publication of the complete observations; and he need not state that the mere results were of little value compared to the observations themselves. Under these circumstances, he did hope, as he understood that the Russian Government was about to publish all the observations taken in that country, and as the French Government was always most liberal in the publication of such observations, that the British Government would give such assistance as would lead to the publication of these observations in the most entire and perfect form. After 100,000 l. had already been spent by the Government, he hoped that they would not grudge the additional sum of 2,000 l. or 3,000 l., which would be all
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that was necessary to place the public in possession of the whole of these observations.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he was not able to give the noble Earl an answer, but he might rely on it that the utmost attention would be given to the subject, and that Her Majesty's Ministers would take measures to give the most complete information in so interesting a matter. He would only add that he would direct inquiries to be made in the proper quarter.

DEODANDS ABOLITION BILL.
On the Motion of Lord Campbell, the House went into Committee on this Bill.
The Earl of Ellenboroughsaid, that this was a very short Bill, but there was one part of it which he thought might be spared. There were two reasons given for one effect; and one of these portions might, in his opinion, with advantage be omitted from the Bill. He thought the fewer words that were introduced into an Act of Parliament, provided they were sufficiently intelligible, the better.
Lord Campbellsaid: My Lords, I think the noble Earl is mistaken, for it would not be enough simply to enact that there shall be no forfeiture of chattels causing death, or that deodands shall be abolished. At present there is a forfeiture of chattels causing death where there is no deodand, as in the case of murder and manslaughter; and there may be a deodand in the shape of a pecuniary mulct where there is no forfeiture. The prohibition to a coroner's jury to find a deodand may be necessary from the existing requisition that they shall declare forfeited whatever has caused death, although there may have been no negligence in the owner; and the additional words declaring such finding void may be useful to obviate the argument—fieri non debet, factum valet. I confess, my Lords, I am rather surprised at the objection, as I had thought my Bill a model of brevity. Effecting a great improvement of the law, it consists of one single clause, and the enacting part does not exceed three or four lines. Behold the Bill, my Lords, the length of which is complained of. [Here the noble Lord held up his Bill.] I am still more surprised, my Lords, at the quarter from which the objection comes. While the noble Earl was in the East, there appeared before the public certain proclamations, which were indeed chargeable with redundancy. [Lord Ellenborough: Not mine, I am sure.]

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It was, indeed, doubted whether they were genuine productions, and many supposed that they had been fabricated in the name of the Governor General for the public amusement. But in this House they were treated as authentic; and to them the pruning knife might have been most advantageously applied. The noble and gallant Duke opposite never had a more difficult undertaking than to defend them, which he certainly performed with consummate courage and skill; but when be came to that passage, which he designated "a song of triumph," I am sure that even he must have inwardly quailed, and earnestly wished that the pruning-knife had been applied to it. [The Duke of Wellington laughed very heartily.] However, my Lords, it has been my great object for many years to introduce simplicity and brevity into law proceedings, and into the language of legislation; and if this Bill can be safely shortened, I shall be most happy. If the noble Earl will allow it to pass through the Committee in its present form, with his assistance, and that of my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, I shall consider what may be safely left out on the Report, although I hope there may not afterwards be reason to say—
"Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio."
The Earl of Ellenborough: My Lords, I am glad that the noble and learned Lord has referred to my conduct in India. I am here to answer him or any man, and now I should wish to hear said in my presence that which has been said in my absence.
Lord Campbellsaid: I did not mean to attack the measures of the noble Earl, or to raise any discussion on his policy, which I admit ought to be done—if at all—by a direct Motion. I confined myself to his style. I meant on this occasion to say nothing respecting his government of India. If he is contented that things should remain as they are, so am I.
The Earl of Ellenborough: I beg to give the noble and learned Lord a piece of advice, which I believe was once given by Lord Chatham in the House of Commons to some hon. Member of that House who had chosen to arraign his conduct, which was this—that the next time he meant nothing he had better say nothing.
Lord Brougham: I hope, my Lords, that this will go no further. My noble Friend, who was absent on former occasions, fays, as I know, that nothing would ever give him more satisfaction than to
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hear himself openly attacked in his presence, for he is ready to defend himself; but I must add, as often as anything has been said in impeachment of his conduct, in his absence, he was most zealously and most anxiously defended by my noble Friend the gallant Duke; and zealously, though, God knows, not ably, but, I believe, successfully, by the individual who now addresses your Lordships.
The Earl of Ellenborough: I know the whole amount of gratitude which I owe to the noble Duke on this subject, as I do on all others. But, my Lords, I cannot venture to speak on this subject.
Bill passed through Committee, and reported.

PROPERTY TAX BILL.
Lord Wharncliffe, in moving that this Bill be read a second time, suggested that it would be for the convenience of many noble Lords that any discussion which it might be desirable to have on this measure should take place immediately after the holidays. The Bill itself was merely the continuance of the Property Tax Bill for a period of three years; still he understood it was the wish of noble Lords to express their opinion upon the subject of the tax generally, and he would, therefore, propose that the Bill be now read a second time, and that the discussion should be had on the third reading.
The Marquess of Lansdownewas not desirous to induce the House to depart from any arrangement which noble Lords opposite were anxious to make respecting the day on which this most important subject—for although it was merely a continuance of the Property Tax for three years, still he did think it was a very important subject—should be discussed. One discussion he considered would answer, and he was disposed to think that that discussion could be as conveniently taken after as before the holidays. All that he was desirous to state now was, that he hoped it would not be misconstrued as far as he was concerned, or indeed as far as other noble Lords were concerned, that there was any appearance even of indifference if this Bill was allowed to pass the second reading with that silence which was accorded to it on this occasion. He now begged to give their Lordships notice that, on the third reading of this Bill, he should not only address himself to the immediate subject of it—namely, the im-

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position of a Property Tax, but he should also express his opinion upon those other financial measures which might properly be considered to be connected with it.
Lord Broughamentertained a very strong opinion upon the subject of this extraordinary proposition for the continuance of what he would venture to call an Income Tax. If it were a Property Tax, undoubtedly many of his objections would, he did not say cease altogether, but would be considerably modified. He agreed that these financial matters should be discussed all at once, instead of being taken by piecemeal, and that it would be better to postpone the discussion to the next stage of the Bill; but in allowing the Bill to be now read a second time, they must not be supposed to be enamoured with the tax, but that considering that the necessity or high expediency of the tax had not yet ceased which justified its being enacted three years ago, they were not willing to throw any obstacle in the way of its passing as a temporary measure. Undoubtedly he entertained a strong objection to such a tax, without modification, becoming a permanent source of revenue in this country. When the discussion should come on, he should be prepared to state his views as to the modifications which he thought absolutely necessary in order to make this a tax fit and proper to be a permanent source of revenue to the State.
The Duke of Wellingtonbelieved that it was for the general convenience of the House that the discussion should take place at a future period. Several noble Lords were absent who were desirous to express their opinions against the measure; he was therefore willing to postpone the discussion for the general convenience, not at all supposing that any noble Lord would, by so allowing the second reading to pass, have in any way altered his opinion on the subject.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, that although it might have been more satisfactory to the public mind if their Lordships had discussed this subject before the holidays, yet as there seemed little inclination on the part of noble Lords, as there had been very little inclination on the part of the House of Commons to oppose the passing of this Bill — notwithstanding various opinions were entertained as to the nature of the tax itself—he thought there was no doubt it would pass, and therefore there could
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be no inconvenience in allowing the discussion to take place after the holidays.
Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed.

PAUPER LUNATICS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord Monteaglemoved the second reading of this Bill, to which he trusted that no opposition would be given, as it was his intention that the fullest opportunity should be afforded for the consideration of the Bill. The subject was one entitled to the attention of the Government. At present the gaols in Ireland were full of pauper lunatics, who were kept without medical or moral treatment. The object of the Bill which he proposed was not to make any compulsory regulation with respect to the subject, but to give the Lord Lieutetenant of Ireland (if he thought fit) a power which he did not now possess, of classifying pauper lunatics in a similar way to that done under the law in this country. He would merely propose to have the Bill now read a second time, with the view that time should be given for its future consideration.
The Duke of Wellingtonwould not object to the second reading of the Bill. At the same time, he believed that his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland had given notice in another place of his intention to introduce a measure on this subject, and which measure he hoped to be able to perfect. However, as the principle was admitted, the only difference that could arise was, as to the particular mode of effecting the object in view. As the noble Lord said that he did not mean to bring the Bill forward, he would not object to its being read a second time.
Bill read a second time.
House adjourned.