§ Lord Ashburtonpresented a petition from tradesmen in Westminster, complaining of the operation of Lord Brougham's Act abolishing Imprisonment for Debts under 20l. The petitioners alleged that this law enabled their debtors to set them at defiance.
§ On the Motion of the noble Lord, the petition was read by the Clerk at the Table.
Lord Broughamthought the petition was exceedingly important, and agreed with the prayer of the petitioners. He regretted that those who had lavished so much abuse upon the person who had introduced the Bankruptcy and Insolvent Bill had not abstained from doing so, and confined themselves to praying to have some supplementary measure introduced, because it was, in point of fact, not his (Lord Brougham's) Bill, but part of a Bill which had been drawn by a noble and learned Lord (Lord Cottenham) not then present. He was sure that if that fact had been known, he and his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor would have been saved the abuse they had been subjected to, as it had arisen principally 259 with the political friends and partisans of the noble and learned Lord to whom he had alluded. He and his noble and learned Friend had found, on investigating the case, the gaols connected with the Small Debts Courts in such a horrible state as to be unfit—not only for Christians and fellow-creatures—but even for animals. His noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor had, last Session, read to the House accounts from respectable persons, which made one's blood curdle to think that fellow-creatures—so many as six, eight, and sometimes twenty — were confined in a small room, not for a week or ten days, but often for an indefinite period, where they could not breathe wholesome air, and had straw to lie upon, without the use of water. In many of the gaols the rooms were infinitely worse than those in which felons sentenced to death were confined, and the poor unfortunate debtors, owing no more than perhaps 20s., or 10s., had not the means of discharging their debts, and relieving themselves from so frightful a confinement. It was that reason which had induced him and his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor to adopt so much of his other noble and learned Friend's Bill as applied to debts not exceeding 20l. He believed that more than nine-tenths of the debts to retail dealers were under 20l., and he regretted that they had not introduced a guard into their Bill for the purpose of enabling creditors to obtain from salaried clerks in public or private offices, who lived in furnished lodgings, and had no goods of their own, a certain portion of their salaries in payment of the debts they had incurred. But it should be remembered also that parties did often very rashly and improperly give credit. He did not, however, despair of being able to apply a remedy for the evil. He thought the working of the Act had been highly beneficial, inasmuch as it had tended to restrain the shopkeeper from rashly and improperly giving credit.
Lord Campbellwould heartily concur in any measure for reaching the property of debtors, but he hoped their Lordships would not be induced to retrace their steps in regard to the abolition of Imprisonment for Debt. He must observe, that various parts of his noble and learned Friend's measure, which were intended to reach the property of insolvent debtors more effectually, had not been adopted by the House; if they had received the sanction 260 of Parliament, there could be little doubt that these complaints would not have arisen. It was satisfactory to know that no evil had arisen from the abolition of mesne process, although persons in business had always supposed that that was the best means of recovering debts due to them; and he believed that Imprisonment for Debt on final process might be taken away with the utmost safety. At the same time he allowed that everything should be done to compel the debtor to make a fair disclosure of his property, and oblige him to surrender it to his creditors. He agreed that debtors did more evil than creditors, but he thought it of importance that commercial persons should see that they ought not to give credit to persons with whose character and circumstances they were unacquainted.
§ Petitions laid on the Table.
§ Lord Denmanpresented a petition from Augustus J. A. S. Hoffstadt, who stated that he had been compelled to remain in gaol for contempt for three years, notwithstanding that his accounts had been laid before the Commissioners of Bankruptcy, and found to be most satisfactory, because from conscientious motives he had refused to swear to his balance sheet. He also stated that he was reduced to the greatest distress, in consequence of feeling a similar scruple as to taking the oath required by the prison regulations, in order to entitle him to the prison allowance. He hoped that his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack would give his attention to the subject, that some remedy might be provided in the case.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he would make inquiry into the subject, with the view of providing a remedy for the case of those who felt conscientious scruples as to taking oaths.
§ Petition ordered to be printed.