Lords Sitting of 4 March 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Private.—1a. Calvert's Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Duke of Richmond, from Uckfield, and 11 other places, for Protection to Agriculture.—From Longstock, and 6 other places, for Repeal of Malt Tax.—From Abernethy, for Improving the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).—By Lord Ashburton, from Society of Mutual Communication for the Protection of Trade, against the Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Act.—By Lord Denman, from Augustus J. A. S. Hoffstadt, for Alteration of Law relating to the Swearing of Bankrupts to Balance Sheet.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
The Duke of Richmondpresented several petitions from owners, occupiers, and tradesmen in Cuckfield, and other places in Sussex, complaining of considerable distress and loss of property from the present low price of agricultural produce. The petitions were signed by a large number of persons resident in Sussex, who had stated the number of acres they possessed, and he (the Duke of Richmond) could bear testimony to their respectability and vouch for the truth of their statement. He was
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quite certain that he was expressing their opinion as well as his own, when he stated that they had heard with the greatest regret and feelings of the bitterest disappointment that no relief was about to be offered by the Government to those who were suffering severe distress, but only to those classes whom he (the Duke of Richmond) was happy to say were enjoying prosperity. He need hardly say, after the pledge he had given, and which he intended to fulfil, that when the new Tariff came up to their Lordships' House, he should move to expunge all those clauses that gave advantages to the untaxed foreigner at the expense of the British farmers, labourers, and their families. He regretted extremely the course the Government had pursued. He thought, as he had always stated, that free trade would be the ruin of this country, and he saw in all the changes which were made the wish to go forward in that career. And he must say, that if by degrees the labourers were to be ruined by having articles Drought into this country free of duty, and thus thrown out of employment, there would be nothing left but the Corn Laws to support the tenantry and the landowners of England.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS ACT AMENDMENT ACT.
Lord Ashburtonpresented a petition from tradesmen in Westminster, complaining of the operation of Lord Brougham's Act abolishing Imprisonment for Debts under 20 l. The petitioners alleged that this law enabled their debtors to set them at defiance.
On the Motion of the noble Lord, the petition was read by the Clerk at the Table.
Lord Broughamthought the petition was exceedingly important, and agreed with the prayer of the petitioners. He regretted that those who had lavished so much abuse upon the person who had introduced the Bankruptcy and Insolvent Bill had not abstained from doing so, and confined themselves to praying to have some supplementary measure introduced, because it was, in point of fact, not his (Lord Brougham's) Bill, but part of a Bill which had been drawn by a noble and learned Lord (Lord Cottenham) not then present. He was sure that if that fact had been known, he and his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor would have been saved the abuse they had been subjected to, as it had arisen principally

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with the political friends and partisans of the noble and learned Lord to whom he had alluded. He and his noble and learned Friend had found, on investigating the case, the gaols connected with the Small Debts Courts in such a horrible state as to be unfit—not only for Christians and fellow-creatures—but even for animals. His noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor had, last Session, read to the House accounts from respectable persons, which made one's blood curdle to think that fellow-creatures—so many as six, eight, and sometimes twenty — were confined in a small room, not for a week or ten days, but often for an indefinite period, where they could not breathe wholesome air, and had straw to lie upon, without the use of water. In many of the gaols the rooms were infinitely worse than those in which felons sentenced to death were confined, and the poor unfortunate debtors, owing no more than perhaps 20 s., or 10 s., had not the means of discharging their debts, and relieving themselves from so frightful a confinement. It was that reason which had induced him and his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor to adopt so much of his other noble and learned Friend's Bill as applied to debts not exceeding 20 l. He believed that more than nine-tenths of the debts to retail dealers were under 20 l., and he regretted that they had not introduced a guard into their Bill for the purpose of enabling creditors to obtain from salaried clerks in public or private offices, who lived in furnished lodgings, and had no goods of their own, a certain portion of their salaries in payment of the debts they had incurred. But it should be remembered also that parties did often very rashly and improperly give credit. He did not, however, despair of being able to apply a remedy for the evil. He thought the working of the Act had been highly beneficial, inasmuch as it had tended to restrain the shopkeeper from rashly and improperly giving credit.
Lord Campbellwould heartily concur in any measure for reaching the property of debtors, but he hoped their Lordships would not be induced to retrace their steps in regard to the abolition of Imprisonment for Debt. He must observe, that various parts of his noble and learned Friend's measure, which were intended to reach the property of insolvent debtors more effectually, had not been adopted by the House; if they had received the sanction
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of Parliament, there could be little doubt that these complaints would not have arisen. It was satisfactory to know that no evil had arisen from the abolition of mesne process, although persons in business had always supposed that that was the best means of recovering debts due to them; and he believed that Imprisonment for Debt on final process might be taken away with the utmost safety. At the same time he allowed that everything should be done to compel the debtor to make a fair disclosure of his property, and oblige him to surrender it to his creditors. He agreed that debtors did more evil than creditors, but he thought it of importance that commercial persons should see that they ought not to give credit to persons with whose character and circumstances they were unacquainted.
Petitions laid on the Table.
Lord Denmanpresented a petition from Augustus J. A. S. Hoffstadt, who stated that he had been compelled to remain in gaol for contempt for three years, notwithstanding that his accounts had been laid before the Commissioners of Bankruptcy, and found to be most satisfactory, because from conscientious motives he had refused to swear to his balance sheet. He also stated that he was reduced to the greatest distress, in consequence of feeling a similar scruple as to taking the oath required by the prison regulations, in order to entitle him to the prison allowance. He hoped that his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack would give his attention to the subject, that some remedy might be provided in the case.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he would make inquiry into the subject, with the view of providing a remedy for the case of those who felt conscientious scruples as to taking oaths.
Petition ordered to be printed.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
Lord Campbellrose for the purpose of putting the question of which he had given notice. He wished to know if it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce the Bill of which they had formerly given hopes for the reformation of the Ecclesiastical Courts. A rumour had gone abroad that in another place one of Her Majesty's Ministers had declared there was no intention whatever on the part of Her Majesty's Government to bring the subject before Parliament during the present Session. Till he heard from one of Her Majesty's

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Ministers that there was no such intention he could not bring himself to believe it. Their Lordships were well aware that this was a grievance which had long been felt; that there was a Commission, consisting of all the principal Judges in Westminster Hall, which unanimously concurred in the recommendation that these Courts should be reformed; that there was afterwards a Commission, called the Real Property Commission, of which he (Lord Campbell) had the honour to be a member, which unanimously concurred in the same recommendation; that there were also Committees of both Houses of Parliament, who unanimously concurred in that recommendation; one of those Committees in the other House of Parliament being presided over by Sir J. Graham.
The Duke of Wellington: Are you going to make a Motion? I thought you wished an answer to a question.
Lord Campbellwas only making a statement for the purpose of refreshing the memory of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack as to certain points which he feared had slipped from it.
The Duke of Wellington: You do not know what his answer is.
Lord Campbellhad been much alarmed by the rumour that there was no intention to bring forward this Bill, and he thought it would be more satisfactory to remind his noble and learned Friend and the noble Duke of what had previously taken place; but if it would be more convenient that an answer should in the first instance be given, he was at all times most ready to bow to any recommendation from that quarter, and he would at once put the question to his noble and learned Friend, when it was the intention of the Government to bring forward a Bill for the reformation of the Ecclesiastical Courts, such as had been recommended to Parliament by Her Majesty, in Her Speech at the opening of the Session of 1842.
The Lord Chancellor: My noble and learned Friend seems to have been taking lessons in equity practice; his questions assume the shape of Bills in Chancery. If he had put a short question to me I would have given a short answer. I have no intention of bringing in such a Bill in the course of the present Session.
The Earl of Ellenboroughsaid, it appeared to him that a very unusual practice had grown up during his absence from this country. Would the noble and learned Lord permit, him to state to the best of
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his recollection what used to be the practice of their Lordships' House? In former days speeches were not permitted to be made when questions were put, and were allowed only for the purpose of founding a Motion.
The Earl of Mintosaid, it was true that the habit of which the noble Lord now complained had grown up during his absence. The habit was certainly an extremely bad one, and the sooner it was put an end to the better, provided it were understood that the order was to be observed on both sides of the House.
Lord Campbellsaid, he was most anxious to conform to the rules of the House, and he hoped he had not infringed any of the rules he had found in their Lordships' House since he became a Member of it. He avowed that he thought some of them were certainly of a very extraordinary nature, and did vary very considerably from the rules he had found to prevail in the other House of Parliament, because there most undoubtedly the rule was, that in putting a question you were simply to state the facts that were indisputably necessary for the purpose of raising it. But on both sides of their Lordships' House, since he had had the honour of sitting in it, he had found the custom prevail of prefacing a question by what might be called a speech. He could not but express a regret at the answer of his noble and learned Friend. Were they, then, to to despair, in all time coming, of seeing the opprobrium thrown on the administration of the law by the Ecclesiastical Courts removed? Three hundred and eighty courts—
The Duke of Wellingtonrose to order. The Orders of their Lordships' House required that if a noble Lord made a speech he must conclude by a Motion, and if he concluded by a Motion, the courtesy of the House had been to give notice of it. He believed he had now stated exactly the Order of the House and the courtesy of the House. The noble Lord would be, he was sure, desirous of adhering to what had been the order and courtesy of the House, and if he meant to make a speech on the subject of the omission of his noble and learned Friend in not bringing forward the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, he hoped he would have the kindness to give notice for Thursday or any other day.
Lord Campbellat once bowed to the authority of the noble Duke, and would not resort to the expedient of finishing

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with some evasive Motion for the purpose of making a speech. He would consider what was the best mode of bringing the subject regularly before the House.
House adjourned.