The Bishop of Cashelhaving presented several petitions against the grant to Maynooth, and postponed his Motion on the subject of education until Tuesday,
The Marquess of Normanbystated, that he wished to bring under the notice of the 444 House the case of Mr. Mackesy, which had an intimate connexion with the Motion of the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Cashel), and which case he considered ought not to be delayed even till Tuesday next, when that Motion was to come forward. He should, therefore, avail himself of the opportunity which the presentation of these petitions gave him to lay before the House the particulars of that case. It appeared that Mr. Mackesy had applied to the right rev. Prelate for a parish which was soon expected to become vacant; and that this application received no encouragement, although he forwarded the highest testimonials, extending over a period of more than a quarter of a century; but it appeared that the right rev. Gentleman had declined to give Mr. Mackesy promotion, on what he was pleased to call the testimony of his own overweening approbation. Now, he held in his hand extracts from the testimonials of the Rev. Mr. Mackesy for services which extended over a quarter of a century; and certainly, those recommendations contained as well-founded a claim for professional promotion, founded upon professional merits, as any clergyman in the Church of Ireland could have sent in. Those testimonials were shown to the right rev. Prelate, who was at this time a stranger to the diocese. He would now refer to another part of the statement of the right rev. Prelate, which had given the greatest pain to the Rev. Mr. Mackesy. He found, that "the Bishop of Cashel said, that he had never rebuked the Rev. Mr. Mackesy at the visitation at Lismore." He (the Marquess of Normanby) had that morning received a letter from the Rev. Mr. Mackesy on this subject, which he would beg permission to read to their Lordships. Mr. Mackesy said that—
With regard to the Bishop of Cashel's charge, delivered in 1843 at Lismore, I never knew it had been printed until I read the debate in the House of Lords. The impression made upon my mind at that time was, that the charge was anything but calculated to produce good feeling between Protestants and Roman Catholics; and I have heard the same opinion repeatedly expressed by others. I have not read the charge myself; but I have been told by others, who have read it, that the wording appears less forcible than in the delivery, and that it seems to be in an amended form. I have never particularized any passages in the charge, as my memory did not fully enable me to do so, but spoke of it generally from my recollection of its delivery. I do not recollect that the subject of national education was introduced 445 in the charge, but in conversation; and I beg leave to state briefly the expressions used by the Bishop to me on the occasion. He observed, that he would be better pleased that I had no school at all, rather than the national one I had established in my parish; and, in answer to a question addressed by me to his Lordship, he stated his opinion, that no Protestant clergyman could, consistently with his duty, visit a national school even for the purpose of seeing the rules fairly carried out. Much more was said condemnatory of the national system; but the above expressions were taken down by me in writing on my return home from the visitation. The Bishop of Cashel has asserted in the House of Lords, that he did not censure me for my connexion with the national system; but his Lordship has doubtlessly forgot the circumstance, and the accompanying documents will prove that his memory on the point is defective. In addition, I beg to observe that, in the month of March last, I stated in a letter to the Rev. Mr. Maunsell, intended for the Bishop's inspection, and I suppose laid before his Lordship, as it was written by his desire, the severe manner in which the Bishop had animadverted on my opinions with regard to national education, at the visitation of Lismore in 1843. If I had made any mis-statement in that letter, surely some comment would have been since made, either by the Bishop or the Rev. Mr. Maunsell, who was present at the visitation, and heard what passed on the occasion. In conclusion, permit me to remark that, while candidly expressing my own opinions, I have been most careful in observing the respect due to my Bishop. Trusting that your Lordship may be enabled to make this statement in the House of Lords, and clear me from the imputation of having stated what was not the fact, I have the honour to be," &c.Now, if any doubt should be entertained as to the recollection of the Rev. Mr. Mackesy on this subject, he (the Marquess of Normanby) had in his possession several letters from Protestant clergymen who were present on the occasion to which that rev. gentleman referred. He would, however, read only one of those communications, from a rev. gentleman whose high character would, he was convinced, be admitted by the right rev. Prelate—the Rev. Mr. Homan, of the county of Waterford. That rev. gentleman said—In reply to your note relative to the visitation held at Lismore, in 1843, I beg to state that I was present at it, and the impression made on my mind at the time was, that the Bishop expressed considerable displeasure with you for taking any part in the national schools. After the lapse of so long a time, I cannot take upon myself to repeat the exact expressions used by the Bishop on that occasion; 446 but the feeling on my own mind, as well as on the generality of those present, unquestionably was, that a severe censure had been passed on you.He (the Marquess of Normanby) had now done what he considered due to an injured gentleman who was not here to defend himself; and he had afforded the right rev. Prelate an opportunity of making reparation to the injured feelings of the Rev. Mr. Mackesy. Although the right rev. Prelate had given to the world a publication in which he commented upon the propriety of his (the Marquess of Normanby's) conduct, in some remarks he had made with reference to that right rev. Prelate, he should have thought the right rev. Prelate would have exercised a little more caution before he so positively denied the deliberate assertion of the rev. Mr. Mackesy.
The Bishop of Cashelsaid, the noble Marquess had brought a heavy charge against him, which he was happy to have the opportunity of answering before their Lordships. He must beg leave to deny most distinctly having ever rebuked Mr. Mackesy at his visitation, for maintaining a connexion with the National Board of Education. The visitation in 1843 was the only occasion on which he had been in company with the Rev. Mr. Mackesy, in common with many others of his clergy; and he then interrogated every clergyman, as it was his duty to do, with reference to the establishment of English schools. For the noble Marquess might not be aware that every clergyman of the Established Church in Ireland swore at his institution that he would maintain an English school in his parish; and he (the Bishop of Cashel) thought it his duty, on the occasion to which he referred, to inquire whether each clergyman had, according to his oath, an English school in his parish. This regulation had not been complied with by the Rev. Mr. Mackesy; and he certainly did express his disapprobation of that rev. gentleman's conduct in this respect; but he would venture to say that he never rebuked that rev. gentleman, or used one single word of severity towards him. He was sorry to say, that he found many parishes in the county of Waterford destitute of English schools; he found that there was in that district a great want of schools for the education of children of Protestants; and he did express his hope—and made a most earnest recommendation 447 on the subject to every clergyman in his diocese—that a school might be established in every parish in connexion with the Church Education Society. To that he pleaded guilty; and a statement to that effect would be found in his charge. He certainly did reprove—if he might use the term—those clergymen who were content without any schools they could consider their own in their several parishes; and who allowed the children of Protestants to attend the national schools, which were under the patronage of the priests. He considered it his duty, as a bishop of the Established Church, to adopt this course; and as long as he occupied his present situation he would endeavour duly to perform that duty. He had the happiness of knowing that, since the time to which he referred, six or seven English schools had been established in parishes within his diocese. He considered it essential to the maintenance of Protestantism—especially in the south of Ireland, where the number of Protestants was small—that they should have schools in which they might train the Protestant youth in the way in which they should go (which, in his opinion, was not according to the Roman Catholic system), so that when they were old they might not depart from it. Of endeavouring to effect this object he was guilty; but he distinctly denied having used any severe language with reference to Mr. Mackesy, or others in the same situation. He had that morning received letters from different clergymen in the county of Waterford, expressing their strong conviction and recollection that no such language as that attributed to him had ever escaped from his lips. At a dinner at the time of the visitation, when all the clergy were assembled, a conversation took place on this subject; and he then stated the high sense he entertained of the value of the Church Education Society, and evinced his attachment to the institution by giving a large subscription to its funds. On that occasion, during a familiar conversation after dinner, the Rev. Mr. Mackesy, in a very proper way—in a manner which did not excite any angry feeling—spoke in favour of the National Board; but there was no expression as to any opposition of sentiment between Mr. Mackesy and himself. With reference to one portion of the noble Marquess's remarks, namely, the letter which he (the Bishop of Cashel) had written, and in 448 which he was supposed to have used expressions disparaging Mr. Mackesy, he (the Bishop of Cashel) wished to say, that he had never expressed any opinion prejudicial to the Rev. Mr. Mackesy. What he had stated with reference to not wishing to have the opinions of clergymen themselves as to their qualifications, he never meant to apply to Mr. Mackesy; he merely wished it to be understood in the diocese that he deemed it his duty to consider the zeal and ability of the several clergymen in the diocese from personal observation, rather than to have each clergyman coming forward and applying for this or that parish, on his own representations. That was the view that he entertained; and now, since the subject had been brought forward, he must state something relative to Mr. Mackesy, which their Lordships would be surprised to hear. He had in his possession a letter which, if he had to-night presented the petition of which he had given notice, he would have read to their Lordships. The letter to which he referred was from the Rev. Mr. Mackesy to the rector of Monksland — a place of which the Rev. Mr. Mackesy had the charge for six or seven weeks, and was dated May, 1843. In that letter Mr. Mackesy stated that, during his short residence at Monksland, he found that the Protestant children attended the national school; and he thought that was not a fit place for them to attend; he expressed a strong opinion that a school in connexion with the Church Education Society ought to be established in the parish, and stated that he considered the bishop ought to be consulted on the subject. When he (the Bishop of Cashel) became acquainted with the circumstance, he immediately set about the establishment of a Church of England school, in order that the children of Protestants might not be obliged to attend the national school. In the letter of Mr. Mackesy to which he referred, that rev. gentleman stated that, though he was a friend to the national system of education, where a better could not be adopted, and where a Protestant school could not be established, yet he considered that in such a parish as Monksland they ought to have a school in connexion with the Church Education Society. Mr. Mackesy, however, now came forward as if he were the champion of the National Board; but on Tuesday next he (the Bishop of Cashel) would read the letter of the rev. gentleman 449 to which he had just referred. He must repeat, that he positively denied having ever rebuked Mr. Mackesy for his connexion with the National Board; and that his conversation with that rev. gentleman at the visitation referred to his not having, as according to the oath taken he ought to have had, a Protestant school in his parish.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he thought any one who had listened to the explanation of the right rev. Prelate must see that the statements made by the Rev. Mr. Mackesy were substantially borne out. He (the Marquess of Normanby) had stated, that the right rev. Prelate had rebuked the Rev. Mr. Mackesy in the presence of the assembled clergy. Did the right rev. Prelate deny that?
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that if the Rev. Mr. Mackesy was told in the presence of the assembled clergy, that he had done something not in accordance with the oath he had taken, he (the Marquess of Normanby) should consider that a rebuke.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, the right rev. Prelate admitted that he found fault with Mr. Mackesy for not having a school. Did the right rev. Prelate mean to say, that because a school was not in connexion with the Church Education Society, it was not a school? The right rev. Prelate seemed to draw some distinction of this kind; for though he admitted that he had rebuked Mr. Mackesy, he said he had not rebuked him for any connexion with the National Society. He confessed that he was unable to understand the meaning of the right rev. Prelate. The right rev. Prelate had, as he conceived, somewhat sneeringly, intimated that Mr. Mackesy had been rebuked for living in terms of friendship with the Roman Catholic priests. Every one acquainted with the state of Ireland must be aware that, wherever it was possible, it was most desirable that the Protestant clergy should maintain a kindly feeling towards the Roman Catholic priesthood; and he had yet to learn that in consequence of acting on such a principle the Rev. Mr. Mackesy had justly exposed himself to the sneer of the right rev. Prelate.
The Marquess of Westmeathnever saw 450 a noble Lord who was more expert in replying upon another noble Lord than the noble Marquess. The charge which the right rev. Prelate made against Mr. Mackesey was, that he had not a Protestant school in his parish. The noble Marquess said that he rebuked the rev. gentleman for attending the national school; but two things could not be more distinct than were the charge which the right rev. Prelate made, and the construction which the noble Marquess had put upon it. The rev. gentleman stated in his letter that he had taken down the words of the right rev. Prelate; but he did not know how a gentleman could undertake to write down the words of a conversation, especially after dinner, and then aver in a most positive manner that they were the very words that had been used. It appeared that Mr. Homan was by no means certain as to the expressions that had been used.
§ The Earl of St. Germanswished to remind their Lordships that an oath was taken by every clergyman that a school should be maintained in his parish for the education of the English population, and that the national school was not the English school.
The Bishop of Cashelsaid, the Rev. Mr. Mackesy was present at the assembly of the clergy by which he (the Bishop of Cashel) was requested to print his charge; and from that request neither Mr. Mackesy, Mr. Homan, nor any one else dissented. It was at their request that he printed and published this charge.