Lords Sitting of 5 June 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—3a. and passed: — Calico Print Works.
Private.—1a. Kendal and Windermere Railway; Blackburn, Darwen, and Bolton Railway; Leeds and West Riding Junction Railway; Leicester Freemen's Allotments.
2a. Leeds, Dewsbury, and Manchester Railway; Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway; Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal; Leeds and Bradford Railway Extension (Shipley to Colne); Crediton Small Debts.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Bishops of Lichfield, Cashel, and Ely, Earls Fitzhardinge, and Winchilsea, Marquess of Breadalbane, and by Lords Monteagle, Redesdale, and Farnham, from Clergy and others of Armagh, and numerous other places, against Increase of Grant to Maynooth College.—From Dissenting Congregation of Bridge Meeting House, Honiton, in favour of Increase of Grant to Maynooth College.—From Inhabitants of Athboy, for Inquiry into the Course of Instruction adopted at Maynooth College.—By Lord Farnham, from Monkstown, and 3 other places, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Education Society (Ireland).—By Bishop of Norwich, from Judges, Registrars, and others of Norwich and other Dioceses, and from Attorneys and Solicitors of Ipswich, against the Ecclesiastical Courts Consolidation Bill.—From Barton-upon-Humber, and 2 other places, for the Suppression of Intemperance.—From City of Lincoln, for Repeal of 57th Clause of Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Act, and for Establishment of Local Courts.—From Minister and Congregation of Christ Church, Belfast, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Marquess of Normanby, from Inhabitants of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of the Adoption of Sanatory Regulations in Populous Districts. By Lord Redesdale, from Society of Leather Sellers and of Grocers of the City of London, praying to be heard by Counsel against the Charitable Trusts Bill.—From Journeymen Tailors of Ashton-under-Lyne, against the present practice of Tailors Employing Middle Men.—From Newington, and 3 other places, in favour of the Calico Print Works Bill. — From Debtor Prisoners of Queen's Prison, Southwark, for Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.—From Commissioners of Court of Requests, Southwark, and Eastern Half of the Hundred of Brixton, against the Small Debts Bill.—From Parish Schoolmasters within the Presbytery of Peebles, for Inquiry, with a view to their Better Remuneration.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.] —
Lord Broughamsaid, during the three nights' debate in that House, some of his noble and learned Friends having been in the House from ten o'clock in the morning till three or four o'clock the next morning; and from 200 to 300 or 400 people having been crowded into so small a building, the greatest inconvenience had been experienced from the imperfect ventilation. He therefore wished to ask his noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde), whether it was the intention of the Committee appointed by their Lordships with reference

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to the New Houses of Parliament to proceed with their duti?
The Marquess of Clanricardeadmitted that great inconvenience had been experienced by noble Lords who had been present during the late debate. This was a most important subject; for although he had not himself suffered from the late protracted sittings, yet there were many noble Members of that House whose health and lives were valuable to the country, who could not but experience injurious effects from long debates held under such unfavourable circumstances. He considered that if proper attention had been paid to their Lordships' wants, they might now have had another place far better fitted for their discussions than this House. He was aware, that if he found fault with the conduct of any professional or other individuals, that conduct might be strongly vindicated; but he would say, that it was not at all creditable to those employed that their Lordships had not better accommodation. He considered that the Committee to which his noble and learned Friend had referred, and for the appointment of which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) originally moved, ought immediately to reassemble. If that Committee had possessed more extensive powers they would have been better able to effect the objects for which they were appointed; but he would name a very early day for the reassembling of the Committee.
The Marquess of Normanbycould confirm what had been said as to the wretched state of the ventilation of the House. He could not blame the gentleman employed to take charge of the ventilation, for the whole structure was such as to defy his efforts. He did hope that the Committee appointed to look after the construction of the New House would be able to obtain from the architect some assurance that next Session they would be able to remove into it.
Lord Campbellsaid, that his noble Friends below him (Lords Brougham and Cottenham) had suffered so severely last night from the imperfect ventilation, and the sudden draughts of hot and cold air, that they had been unable to attend to the legal business in that House to-day. The noble and learned Lord was understood to say that Mr. Barry had given an assurance as to the time when the new House might be expected to be ready for occupation.
Lord Brougham: I don't regard the
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assurance of Mr. Barry as worth the value of the paper on which it is written. Mr. Barry is all but resisting the authority of this House he is fencing with the House. He foolishly, short-sightedly—and, as he will find to his cost, most ignorantly—fancies that he has high protection out of this House. He will find himself mistaken, completely mistaken.

THE MAYNOOTH DEBATE — EXPLANATION.
The Earl of Winchilsea, in presenting twenty-five petitions against the grant to Maynooth, said, he wished to explain some observations which he had been stated to have made use of—and which were reported to have given pain — with reference to a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), for whom he entertained the highest possible respect. He could not exactly remember the very words used, and he had been too much occupied to look at any report of them. The fact was, that he never wrote his speeches; for, once he did so, and he got into such confusion that he resolved never to do it again, but was determined to let his mouth speak what his heart felt. Sometimes, however, his heart was so full, that his mouth could not give utterance to his sentiments. But, with reference to the matter in hand, he did not think that he had made use of the words that were attributed to him. It had been represented that he (the Earl of Winchilsea) had charged the right hon. Gentleman with dishonesty. He could most conscientiously say that such an idea had never passed through his mind. He had merely, in what he said, alluded to the arguments in the recent speech of the right hon. Gentleman on the subject of the Maynooth grant. The word 'insidious,' as applied to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he never had used, although he certainly had said that he did consider some of its arguments to be 'Jesuitical.' He repeated that of the right hon. Gentleman he had the highest opinion. A more honourable and higher minded gentleman did not exist; and it would pain him (the Earl of Winchilsea) exceedingly if anything that fell from him on that occasion should give him pain.
The Marquess of Breadalbane, having presented several petitions against the proposed endowment of Maynooth, said, he wished to take that opportunity of making a few observations in regard to a statement made by the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), during the

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debate of the previous night, as to the character of the numerous petitions which had been presented against the Government measure. The noble Lord had said that there was in fact a regular manufactory for these petitions; that they were got up for the occasion; that they did not express the spontaneous flow of the feelings of the people on the subject of Maynooth, and were therefore not entitled to any value. All he could say in regard to the petitions he had presented—and he had presented no inconsiderable number—was, that the circumstances stated by the noble Lord did not apply to them. He must, at the same time, be allowed to observe that, unless they were well founded, he thought such statements, in regard to the petitions presented to their Lordships, ought not to be made, especially in regard to a subject of legislation calculated to excite the deepest and strongest feelings of the people of this country.
Lord Stanley, after the remarks of the noble Lord, thought it right to correct a misapprehension under which the noble Lord appeared to labour, as to what he had really said on the occasion referred to. He did not attempt to detract from the value of the petitions presented against the Maynooth Bill. What he did was to divide them into classes; and he said that many of them came from those who wished to withdraw all support on the part of the State from any religion whatsoever—that there were many more which he could hardly regard as the genuine voice of the feelings of the people which they purported to express, for he knew the manner in which they had been got up—that he had himself seen many of them all couched in the same terms, and he had reason to believe that they had all come from the same place—and that there were many more that had emanated from the conscientious religious feelings of the petitioners, but which proceeded from an erroneous view of the measure brought forward by the Government; and he had also added that their Lordships, in dealing with those petitions, were bound to consider the soundness of the arguments they adduced, as well as the number of the petitions themselves.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
Lord Cottenhammoved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
The Bishop of Exeter, after adverting
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to the circumstances in which the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill of 1843 was introduced, amended, and finally withdrawn, said, that in this Bill it was attempted to give jurisdiction in spirituals to a Lay Court, which it was not competent for the State to give; and therefore he moved that the Bill be committed that day six months.
The Lord Chancellorsaid he had given his assent to the second reading of the measure for it was impossible that he could disagree to the principle of a Bill, the clauses of which, so far as he saw, correspond with those of the Government Bill of 1843, and of that more limited measure which he had himself last year introduced, and which, having gone through a Select Committee, passed their Lordships' House unanimously, and was only abandoned in the House of Commons in consequence of the lateness of the Session.
Lord Broughamsuggested that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.
The Bishop of Exeterwould assent to that with all his heart; for when once the Bill was buried in the Select Committee, it would not be disinterred until next Session.
Lord Cottenhamhad only interfered in the matter when he found that the Government did not themselves intend to propose any measure upon the subject during the present Session. The evil which this Bill proposed to remedy was admitted to exist by all parties; and after this Bill had been sanctioned by all the Members of the Government in that House, and had passed the second reading by the unanimous vote of their Lordships, it ought not now to be stopped in its course. The evil was admitted—ought he to be prevented from applying a remedy?
The Bishop of Exeter, upon the understanding that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, withdrew his Amendment.
Lord Broughamexplained, that he had not suggested a Select Committee for the sake of delaying, but because he thought it would expedite the Bill.
Lord Abingerobjected to the Bill. The Ecclesiastical Courts had subsisted for 700 years, and he thought the abolition of those ancient jurisdictions was uncalled for. He should support the Amendment for referring the Bill to a Select Committee.
The Bishop of Salisburysaid, he was never more surprised than when he read in the country a statement in the newspapers that this Bill had been read a second time without any opposition on the part of Her

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Majesty's Government. He rested his objection to the Bill on the argument so strongly put by the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) as to the necessity of maintaining this shadow of a jurisdiction. The rights of the Church were essential to the character of the Church. As to the testamentary jurisdiction of these courts, it was a question of popular convenience; but it rested with the advocates of the change to show that public convenience would be promoted by it without any accompanying evils. He concurred in opinion with those who recommended that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee.
After some remarks from Lord Brougham, the Bishop of Exeter, and Lords Cottenham and Campbell,
Lord Wharncliffethought it would be better to allow the Bill to go through its present stage, and that it should not be reported till an opportunity had been afforded of considering the details of the Bill.
Bill referred to a Select Committee.

CALICO PRINTWORKS BILL.
The Duke of Buccleuckmoved the Third Reading of he Calico Printworks Bill.
Lord Broughammoved that the word "female" in the 22d Clause be struck out.
Amendment negatived.
Lord Campbellsaid that, whatever the necessity might be for married females not being allowed to work by night in printworks, there was no such necessity for preventing unmarried women from working. He would, therefore, move the insertion of the word "married" before "female."
The Duke of Buccleuchcould not understand why unmarried females should be allowed to work, and married not. This was no new restraint; the Bill of last year had been found to work well, and both masters and workmen cordially approved of it. Night-work was most pernicious, and the greatest bane to morals.
Lord Campbellsaid, there was a distinction between married and unmarried women; the former were often pregnant, and had children to attend to and clothes to mend.
The Marquess of Normanbyagreed that there was this distinction; but it was the desire of all classes, manufacturers and workmen, that night-work should cease.
Amendment negatived. Bill read 3a and passed.
Lord Wharncliffemoved that the House do adjourn till Monday next.
Lord Broughamobjected to adjourn without cause shown; after having lost the whole day, owing to Mr. Barry, and those who protected Mr. Barry out of the House, he objected to lose another morning of judicial business without cause shown. He could not conceive any reason for adjourning over to Monday, except that there was an entertainment to be given in some quarter of the town. He agreed that it was right to adjourn on the Queen's birthday; but to move an adjournment because the Queen gave a ball was the most extravagant proposition ever made in an assembly of their Lordships' importance.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, there could be no objection to the House sitting to-morrow if there was any cause to be heard; but he did not see anything in the Paper for to-morrow.
Lord Broughamsaid, there was a cause under argument in which Scotch counsel were to be heard, who were detained in London. There was likewise the Small Debts Bill to be read a third time. If noble Lords came down in costume the sight would be very gratifying; and he should be exceedingly glad to see the noble President of the Council in the costume of Lord Burleigh.
House adjourned till to-morrow.