§ Moved that the House do resolve itself into Committee.
Lord Stanleysaid, that he had a trifling Amendment to propose in relation to the proviso of the 14th Clause, which proviso was somewhat at variance with the Clause. It had reference to the lecture rooms for religious instruction, and he proposed to retain the proviso that no pupil should be required to receive any religious instruction but such as was approved by his parents or guardians. He would take this opportunity of alluding to the suggestion of a noble Marquess (Marquess of Lansdowne) last night, that Ministers should give the new Colleges the privileges of a University. He admitted that the grant of the power to confer degrees seemed a natural complement of the measure. Ministers were of opinion that it would be incomplete without it; but the question required more consideration than it would now be possible to afford to it. Perhaps the most satisfactory course, on some accounts, would be to affiliate the new Colleges with Trinity College, Dublin; but their Lordships would be aware that there were difficulties in the way of such an arrangement. Then came the question whether the new Colleges ought not to be associated as a separate University, the general meeting to be held either at a distinct place or alternately at one of the Colleges. It would obviously be highly desirable, upon this and other points, that the opinions and wishes of the governing bodies should be ascertained, and for this and other 888 reasons, delay seemed not inexpedient. Ministers had this object distinctly in view, and, as he had stated already, without the attainment of it the measure before the House would be imperfect.
§ The Marquess of Lansdownewas quite satisfied with the explanation of the noble Lord, and was extremely glad to find that what he had suggested, had already been contemplated by Her Majesty's Government. He could easily understand why the object could not be accomplished in the present Session; but he hoped that it would be kept constantly in view. He entertained a very confident opinion that it would not be desirable to place one of the Colleges at the head of the others, but some neighbouring town or even village might be selected as a central position for all. The manner in which University and King's Colleges, London, had been affiliated and formed into one University, would form a useful precedent to guide Ministers in their design to raise the new Irish Colleges into a separate University. If he did not propose any Amendment to the Bill on the subject of the appointment of professors, it was because the arrangement giving the choice to Ministers was only temporary.
Lord Campbellwould only offer one suggestion. It appeared that Ministers intended to endow several new Colleges in Ireland; three had been previously spoken of, but last night four were mentioned.
Lord Campbelladded, that his suggestion was, that instead of three new Colleges only one should be founded. Great difficulty might be experienced in establishing three Colleges at once, and he doubted whether a sufficient number of pupils would be obtained in the first instance. If only one general College were opened, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics, would be brought together and united in one common pursuit of knowledge, and they might form friendships which would last for life. The manner in which the whole of Ireland would soon be intersected by railroads, would remove all difficulty of conveyance, and the pupils from all quarters might be collected in one establishment. To this establishment the power of granting degrees might at once be given, and it might 889 be raised to the dignified position now occupied by Trinity College, Dublin.
The Marquess of Clanricardecould not agree with his noble and learned Friend, and was convinced that the foundation of only one College would not satisfy the wants or the wishes of the people of Ireland. He saw no reason why the new Colleges should not be affiliated with Trinity College, Dublin, and such an arrangement would give the greatest satisfaction to the main body of the people. Trinity College had not had justice done to it, as regarded the number of men of letters and science she had produced.
§ Lord Monteagleentered into some comparative details connected with the new Colleges, and urged that the establishment of a new University was necessary to render the design of Ministers complete. It was very fit that time should be taken to consider the best means of attaining this object; and he apprehended that delay would be attended with no practical disadvantage.
§ The Earl of Ellenboroughthought that difficulty would be found in the outset, in procuring a sufficient number of persons capable of filling the office of professor: no doubt Government would use their best exertions, but he doubted how far they would be successful. It was impossible at once to create a College like Eton, or a University like Oxford; lives must pass away before it was accomplished, and reputation could not be conferred by Act of Parliament. The real benefit to be derived from such institutions was the formation of good citizens with kindly feelings towards each other, generated by early association.
§ House adjourned.