Lords Sitting of 11 February 1845

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
On the Motion of Lord Shaftesbury, it was resolved that no Petition in favour of a Private Bill be received after Tuesday, the 8th of April, and no Report from the Judges thereon after Thursday, the 5th day of June.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that with reference to the question which the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Normanby) had given notice of last night, relating to the House of Parliament in which Government intended to originate the measures which they were to bring forward, he had to reply that, from the nature of these measures, it appeared that they must nearly all be brought forward in the House of Commons—that they must originate there. There were, however, two Bills which would be first introduced in

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their Lordships' House; of one of these notice had been given this very evening, and the other would be brought on as soon as possible.
The Marquess of Normanbyreplied, that the answer of the noble Duke was perfectly satisfactory with respect to the two Bills in question; and most of the others, under the present custom of Parliament, must originate in the House of Commons. Still he thought that, if the inconvenience resulting from a rigid adherence to this rule should be found as great this year as it certainly was last year, then that some other arrangement should be come to on the subject. At present their Lordships' time was wasted in the early part of the Session, and everything was crowded on together when a majority of their Lordships had left town, and when, even although they were all present, they would really have no time to bestow for their consideration. In alluding to the subject last night, he had stated generally that more than two-thirds of the business which came up from the other House came up after the month of July. On looking more particularly to the Returns with which he had been furnished, he found that two Bills had been received in February, three in March, one in April, ten in May, nine in June, fifty-two in July, and twelve in the four last days of August, on which their Lordships sat. Thus it appeared that in the four last days of the Session more Bills had come up from the House of Commons than in any one month previous to that date, with the exception of the month of July, during the latter half of which the attendance of their Lordships had much diminished. The noble Duke would recollect that in shaping his question last night, he had begged of him to use his great influence with his Colleagues in the Government, with the view of having the business of the House of Commons gone on with by such degrees as would enable Bills to be brought up one by one. At present a number of Bills were thrown on the Table of the House of Commons at once, and there they remained until about July. The practice was exceedingly inconvenient to noble Lords, highly injurious to their Lordships' legislative character and credit, and a very great impediment to their faithful and efficient discharge of their public duty.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas sure that no persons could be more conscientious in the discharge of their duties than those
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who composed Her Majesty's Government; and indeed, a regular performance of these duties was as necessary for their own comfort as for the public convenience.

COMMISSIONERS OF BANKRUPTCY IN LONDON.
Lord Brougham: I gave notice last night of my intention of presenting this evening a Petition from a very respectable solicitor, containing serious complaints—not of any malversation—certainly not — nothing of the kind—nor of any incompetency—quite the contrary, for there are not more learned men, nor more honourable men, in the profession of the law than these gentlemen, with reference to whom that Petition is drawn up—I mean those gentlemen who have been appointed from time to time, both by my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack and myself, to act as Commissioners of Bankruptcy in the city of London — but the complaint is relative to a subject which there is no doubt about whatever in point of fact, because we have it under the hands of these Commissioners themselves. These gentlemen make returns, we have full returns relative to their attendance at their courts, and they do not seem to attend above three days or three days and a half in a week, and one there is who does not sit more than two days in the week, thus leaving five days blank, and for this these gentlemen receive 2,000 l. a year. However, I shall not only not present this Petition to-day, but I shall not present it at any time, if my noble and learned Friend upon the Woolsack gives me reason to hope that these six Commissioners will at length be pleased to attend in proportion to the amount of the business to be got through, and not put suitors to the inconvenience to which not merely this petitioner, but scores of petitioners who have privately complained to me, are every day subjected.
The Lord Chancellor: I certainly did ask my noble and learned Friend not to present the Petition to which he has alluded, until I had an opportunity of seeing it, and of communicating its contents to the gentlemen to whom it refers, in order that I might receive from them such explanations on the subject as they might be in a condition to offer to the House. The Petition really contains a very grave and serious charge—a charge which should not be brought forward without giving the parties accused an opportunity of replying. I hope my noble and learned Friend, therefore, will allow

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me to look at the Petition with this view. I have always given my noble and learned Friend that credit for the alteration in the Bankrupt Law which he is entitled to have; but now the very persons appointed under these alterations, and appointed principally, indeed, by my noble and learned Friend himself—and nobody could find fault with his selection—I say it is these very persons of whom the complaint is now made. They certainly ought to have time to offer any explanation they may choose, to the complaint of the Petition.
Lord Brougham: I would not have done so much as I have done, I would not have brought forward the complaint, had I not had the subject of that complaint under the hands of the parties themselves. They have stated the facts complained of in their own handwriting.
The Lord Chancellor: I have had a conversation with one of the Commissioners, and he says, "It is true we don't sit every day, but our labours out of court are greater than our labours in it. We have papers to look over at home, points to settle, and so forth." As for myself (continued his Lordship) I am sure that my labours out of court are much greater than in court.
Lord Brougham: I am quite aware of all that, and I will be ready to meet any person who maintains the doctrine that the Commissioners should sit every day. But at present, they crowd too much. They crowd thirty or forty things into one day's sitting, and, in fact, the petitioners cannot get into the court in consequence of the crowd of suitors gathered there.
The Lord Chancellor: That was another point I mentioned. My noble and learned Friend really exaggerates very much when he talks of thirty and forty cases. The Commissioner, with whom I had a conversation, stated the number to be generally twelve, or sixteen, or eighteen Petitions per day.
Lord Brougham: Oh, more, a great deal more.
The Lord Chancellor: And many of these are mere matters of form which can be disposed of in two or three minutes. One or two may be more important and serious, requiring time and consideration. But the gentlemen themselves will furnish a due explanation. I have no doubt at all but they can give a satisfactory explanation.
Lord Brougham: Well, I hope so too; but the explanations hitherto given have been quite unsatisfactory, and, though these things are trifling in themselves,
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they require attention. Now, in one case, there were five witnesses, sheriffs' officers, and other persons from the country, who were obliged—the case not having been heard on account of the quantity of business to be done—who were obliged to go back the first day and come back the next, the expense of all this being charged to the estate in question—by the way, a very small one. This was one of the consequences of the present system.
Lord Campbell: I am glad that my noble and learned Friend has postponed the presentation of this Petition, because I think the gentlemen referred to in it ought to have an opportunity of explaining away, if they can, its allegations. The Petition throws out very serious charges against them—accuses them of very considerable negligence in discharging their duties: I therefore think they onght to have an opportunity of defending themselves. Their appointment gave universal satisfaction, and I hope it will turn out they that have performed their duty in such a manner as was to be expected from their known and admitted qualifications for discharging it.
Subject dropped. House adjourned.