Lords Sitting of 4 February 1845

MINUTES.
Sat first.—Earl of Ellenborough; Earl Nelson.
BILLS. Public.—1a. Select Vestries.

MEETNG OF PARLIAMENT.
The Parliament which had been prorogued successively from the 5th September, to the 10th October, the 12th December, the 4th February, met this day for dispatch of business. The Session was opened by Her Majesty in Person, with the following most Gracious Speech:—
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"I rejoice that I am enabled, on again meeting you in Parliament, to congratulate you on the improved Condition of the Country.
"Increased Activity pervades almost every Branch of Manufacture; Trade and Commerce have been extended at home and abroad; and
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among all Classes of My People there is generally prevalent a Spirit of Loyalty and cheerful Obedience to the Law.
"I continue to receive from all Foreign Powers and States Assurances of their friendly Disposition.
"I have had much Satisfaction in receiving at My Court the Sovereigns who in the course of last Year visited this Country.
"The Journey of the Emperor of Russia, undertaken at a great Sacrifice of private Convenience, was a Proof of the Friendship of His Imperial Majesty most acceptable to My Feelings.
"The Opportunity of personal Intercourse thus afforded to Me may, I hope, be the Means of still further

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improving those amicable Relations which have long existed between Great Britain and Russia.
"The Visit of the King of the French was rendered especially welcome to Me, inasmuch as it had been preceded by Discussions which might have impaired the good Understanding happily established between the Two Countries.
"I regard the Maintenance of this good Understanding as essential to the best Interests of both; and I rejoiced to witness that the Sentiments so cordially expressed by all Classes of My Subjects on the Occasion of His Majesty's Visit were entirely in unison with My own.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"The Estimates for the ensuing Year have been prepared, and will forthwith be laid before you.
"The Progress of Steam Navigation, and the Demands for Protection to the extended Commerce of the Country, will occasion an Increase in the Estimates connected with the Naval Service.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I have observed, with sincere Satisfaction, that the Improvement which is manifest in other Parts of the Country has extended to Ireland.
"The Political Agitation and Excitement which I have had heretofore Occasion to lament appear to have gradually abated, and, as a natural Result, private Capital has been more freely applied to useful public Enterprizes, undertaken through the friendly Co-operation of Individuals interested in the Welfare of Ireland.
"I have carried into effect, in the
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Spirit in which it was conceived, the Act for the more effectual Application of Charitable Donations and Bequests.
"I recommend to your favourable Consideration the Policy of improving and extending the Opportunities for Academical Education in Ireland.
"The Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the Law and Practice in respect to the Occupation of Land is nearly prepared, and shall be communicated to you immediately after its Presentation.
"The State of the Law in regard to the Privileges of the Bank of Ireland, and to other Banking Establishments in that Country, and in Scotland, will no doubt occupy your Attention.
"The Health of the Inhabitants of large Towns and populous Districts in this Part of the United Kingdom has been the Subject of recent Inquiry before a Commission, the Report of which shall be immediately laid before you.
"It will be highly gratifying to Me if the Information and Suggestions contained in that Report shall enable you to devise the Means of promoting the Health and Comfort of the poorer Classes of My Subjects.
"I congratulate you on the Success of the Measures which Three Years since were adopted by Parliament for the Purpose of supplying the Deficiency in the Public Revenue, and arresting the Accumulation of Debt in the Time of Peace.
"The Act which was passed at that Time for imposing a Tax upon Income will shortly expire.
"It will be for you, in your Wisdom, to determine whether it may not be expedient to continue its Operation

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for a further Period, and thus to obtain the Means of adequately providing for the Public Service, and at the same Time of making a Reduction in other Taxation.
"Whatever may be the Result of your Deliberations in this respect, I feel assured that it will be your Determination to maintain an Amount of Revenue amply sufficient to meet the necessary Expenditure of the Country, and firmly to uphold that Public Credit which is indispensable to the National Welfare.
"The Prospect of continued Peace, and the general State of Domestic Prosperity and Tranquillity, afford a favourable Opportunity for the Consideration of the important Matters to which I have directed your Attention; and I commit them to your Deliberation, with the earnest Prayer that you may be enabled, under the superintending Care and Protection of Divine Providence, to strengthen the Feelings of mutual Confidence and Good Will between different Classes of My Subjects, and to improve the Condition of My People."
Her Majesty then retired, and the House adjourned during Pleasure: having resumed,

ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO THE SPEECH.
The Marquess Camdenrose and said: My Lords, in rising to move that your Lordships should agree that an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, in answer to Her most Gracious Speech, which we have this day heard from the Throne, I feel that I must commence by asking you to give me that kind attention and indulgence, which during the few years that I have had the honour of sitting in this House, I have uniformly seen bestowed upon those who, like myself, had never before addressed your Lordships. But, my Lords, I feel the difficulty of my present position considerably lightened by the reflection that it is my lot to address you upon an occasion when,
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without any exaggerated statements of national prosperity, or on any unascertained grounds, your Lordships may safely concur in expressing your gratification at the state of the country in its domestic condition and foreign relations, as they have been represented in Her Majesty's Speech. My Lords, I believe there is no doubt that in every branch of the manufactures and trade of this country there is an increasing activity. I believe that the home trade of this country is increasing in activity in almost every branch, and that the commerce of the country which is carried through almost every part of the civilised globe, and to which new channels have been recently opened, is largely and rapidly extending. My Lords, I trust that we may hope that as the improvement which has been for some time going on in the manufactures of the country, has been gradual and steady, so it will be permanent, and will continue to increase. My Lords, I think you may also cordially join in the congratulations expressed in Her Majesty's Speech, when She says that amongst all classes of the people there prevails a spirit of loyalty and cheerful obedience to the law.—Your Lordships are aware that this spirit of loyalty and firm attachment to the Throne has been manifested on various occasions, and that whenever Her Majesty has appeared before Her people, there has been the greatest manifestation of loyalty and attachment to Her Majesty's Person; and I may perhaps refer more particularly to the period when Her Majesty proceeded, amidst the congregated masses of this great city, to open that Exchange from whence springs all the commerce of the land. My Lords, the next topic in Her Majesty's Speech is the satisfaction which She has felt from the visits of those Sovereigns whom She received at Her Court in the course of the last year. My Lords, I think we can most cordially concur with Her Majesty in the gratification which She expresses at the visit which the Emperor of Russia paid to Her Majesty last year. I think, my Lords, that that visit, paid, as Her Majesty has informed us it was, at a great sacrifice of personal and private convenience, and at a time when private afflictions weighed heavily upon him, must have convinced your Lordships of the anxiety of the Emperor to manifest his feelings of amity towards this country, and to pay a tribute of respect to Her Majesty. My Lords, I believe the alliance with this country and Russia is of the most ancient date;

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it is one of the earliest which that Power contracted after its formation into an Empire; and I am sure that nothing can more tend to contribute to the permanence of this alliance, and, as Her Majesty has stated in Her Speech, the future extension of it, than the visit of the Emperor to Her Majesty, and the maintenance of a friendly intercourse between the two Sovereigns. Her Majesty's Speech also alludes to the visits of other Sovereigns, from which Her Majesty derives great satisfaction, and which must be also gratifying to the country. And first, let me refer to the visit of the King of Saxony, an event which, connected as he is with Her Majesty's illustrious Consort, cannot be looked upon but as one of great importance. I believe, my Lords, that the more this country is visited by Foreign Sovereigns, the more its resources are known, and the happiness of its people is witnessed, the greater will be its influence. I believe that, as in private life, so amongst those in the most exalted station, the frequency of intercourse will lead to more lasting and more intimate advantages. My Lords, it will be in the recollection of your Lordships, that in Her Speech at the termination of the last Session of Parliament, Her Majesty expressed Her gratification at being enabled to state to this House and the country that the negotiations between this country and France had been brought to a satisfactory conclusion. That communication of Her Majesty was very speedily followed by the visit of His Majesty the King of the French; and I am sure your Lordships will feel great gratification that His Majesty was received in this country by the people in the most cordial manner. When we consider the various parts of the world in which the co-operation of France with this country is necessary for the maintenance of peace; when we consider how likely is the maintenance of peace to extend the commerce of this country, and that intercourse which, from the facility of communication with France, must naturally follow the alliance between these two countries, His Majesty's late visit must be looked upon with peculiar gratification. I am sure, my Lords, that the reception which the King of the French met with from the people of this country must have convinced him that they are fully sensible of the talent, eminent perseverance, and zeal, which he at all times has evinced in preserving that peace and amity which are so essential to the interests of both countries; while the spirit of conciliation
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and justice by which the Government of either country has been actuated will be an additional guarantee that the resources and powers of the two kingdoms will be made the means of their mutual preservation and security. The next topic of Her Majesty's Speech relates to a subject which comes more immediately under the discussion of the other House of Parliament; but I think your Lordships will concur in expressing an anxious hope that the country will not object to any necessary expenditure for the extension of our steam navigation, when it is considered how much depends upon the efficiency of that species of navigation in protecting the trade and commerce of this Empire. My Lords, the next point in Her Majesty's Speech is, that Her Majesty "had observed with great satisfaction that the improvement which is manifested in the other parts of the country has extended to Ireland." My Lords, so long as political agitation continues in that country, there must necessarily be alarm in the minds of those who have capital to invest, and they are therefore unwilling to embark their money in speculations in that part of the United Kingdom. But, my Lords, I think we may now hail the return of tranquillity in that country; and the best proof that it is returning is to be found in the different projects of enterprise which have been brought forward, not by the Government, but by private individuals. I refer to the railways and other large works now in progress in Ireland, which by increasing the means of employment for the Irish people, and convincing them that their interests will be best promoted by an intimate union between the two countries, rather than by separation, will necessarily tend to maintain and uphold their loyalty, and form a guarantee for the continuance of good order and tranquillity. And, my Lords, while on the subject of Ireland, I am sure you will join me in cordially thanking Her Majesty for having communicated to us the fact, that she has carried into effect, in the spirit in which it was conceived, the Act for the more effectual Application of Charitable Donations and Bequests; and that you will concur in assuring Her Majesty that whenever the details of the measure shall be laid before you, you will give your most anxious and favourable consideration to the policy of improving and extending the opportunities for Academical Education in Ireland. Her Majesty, in the next place, my Lords, refers to the Report of

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the Commission appointed some time ago to inquire into the Law and Practice in respect to the Occupation of Land in Ireland, which we are informed is nearly prepared and will shortly be laid before your Lordships; and, my Lords, I have no doubt that, by the talent and attention which have been bestowed upon that inquiry by the noble Earl who is the Chairman of the Commission and his Colleagues, much valuable information will be afforded to you on the subject. My Lords, the next topic which is embraced in Her Majesty's Speech is one more immediately for the consideration of the other House of Parliament, inasmuch as it relates to matters connected with monetary affairs; viz., "the state of the Law in regard to the Privileges of the Bank of Ireland, and to other Banking Establishments in that country and in Scotland;" and though this is not the time nor place, neither is it my province, to enter into the details of those measures which will be submitted to Parliament upon this subject, I am sure your Lordships will be glad of this opportunity of assuring Her Majesty that you are prepared to give your most anxious consideration to all matters relating to those Institutions, connected as they are with the great measure which was passed last Session for the regulation of the monetary affairs of this country. My Lords, there is another subject to which Her Majesty refers, upon which your Lordships will be anxious to assure Her Majesty of your most serious care and deliberation. The subject I allude to is connected with the Commission which has been appointed to inquire into the Health of the Metropolis and other large towns, the Report of which is to be immediately laid before Parliament. The subject has already been brought before your Lordships in former Sessions by various noble Lords, and has engaged much of your attention, and I am sure you will rejoice if you can find it practicable to devise measures which may tend to ameliorate the miserable destitution, disease, and suffering which unfortunately exist but too extensively in this metropolis, and, in a greater or less degree, in every large town in the Kingdom. If such measures should be devised, I am sure your Lordships will not hesitate to adopt them. My Lords, it will be in your Lordships' recollection that, three years ago, an Act was passed authorising Her Majesty to raise a tax upon Property and Income, in order to enable Her to meet the excess of
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the expenditure of the country over its income, to pay off certain debts which had been in consequence incurred, and, by making a more equitable distribution of the public burdens, affording Her the means of remitting several taxes that pressed severely on the industry of the country. My Lords, that measure, as Her Majesty informs us, has been perfectly successful; but as that Act expires in the present year, Her Majesty recommends this subject for your early consideration—wishing Parliament to consider whether it would not be more expedient to continue that tax for a longer period, and so extend its advantages by removing other taxes which still press on the manufactures and trade of the country. But, my Lords, whatever Parliament may determine in this respect, it is gratifying to know that we may safely rely upon the public faith being maintained inviolate. My Lords, the prospect of continued peace, not confined alone to the country, but extending over all our relations with Foreign Powers, and the general state of domestic prosperity and tranquillity, will afford Parliament ample time and opportunity to consider the various important topics to which Her Majesty's Speech refers. That your Lordships' best consideration will be paid to those topics, there can be no doubt; and I trust the result will be, that, under the superintending care and protection of Divine Providence, you will be enabled to accomplish that which is the nearest wish of Her Majesty's heart, viz., strengthen the feelings of mutual confidence and goodwill between different classes of Her subjects, and improve the condition of Her people. Before I conclude by reading to your Lordships the humble Address to Her Majesty, allow me to express to your Lordships my warmest thanks for the manner in which you have listened to me, and to express my hope that if by any unguarded word I should unintentionally have given rise to any question which may in the slightest degree disturb the unanimity with which it is my anxious hope this Address should be carried up to Her Majesty, I trust your Lordships will attribute it to my inexperience, and not to those subjects it has been my duty to lay before you. The noble Lord concluded by reading the following Address:—
MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal,

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in Parliament assembled, beg leave to approach Your Majesty to return to Your Majesty our humble Thanks for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has delivered to both Houses of Parliament.
We participate most sincerely in Your Majesty's Joy (on the improved Condition of the Country) that increased Activity pervades every Branch of Manufacture; that Trade and Commerce have been extended at home and abroad; and that among all Classes of Your Majesty's People there is generally prevalent a Spirit of Loyalty and cheerful Obedience to the Law.
We rejoice to learn that Your Majesty continues to receive from all Foreign Powers and States Assurances of their friendly Disposition.
We beg to express our Gratification that Your Majesty has had the Satisfaction of receiving at Your Court the Sovereigns who in the course of the last Year visited this Country.
We concur with Your Majesty in considering that the Journey of the Emperor of Russia, undertaken at a great Sacrifice of private Convenience, was a Proof of the Friendship of His Imperial Majesty, which must have been most acceptable to Your Majesty's Feelings.
We humbly, with Your Majesty, beg leave to express our Hope that the Opportunity thus afforded to Your Majesty may be the Means of still further improving those amicable Relations which have long existed between Russia and Great Britain.
We cordially concur in the Feelings which Your Majesty has been pleased to express in respect to the Visit of the King of the French, which was rendered especially welcome, inasmuch as it had been preceded by Discussions which might have impaired the good Understanding happily established between the Two Countries.
In common with Your Majesty we regard the Maintenance of this good Understanding as essential to the best Interests of both; and we rejoice in the Reflection that the Sentiments so cordially expressed by all Classes of Your Majesty's Subjects on the Occasion of His Majesty's Visit were entirely in unison with those of Your Majesty.
We humbly beg to thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty has observed,
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with sincere satisfaction, that the Improvement which is manifest in other Parts of the Country has extended to Ireland.
We rejoice to learn that the Political Agitation and Excitement which Your Majesty has had heretofore Occasion to lament appear to have gradually abated, and, as a natural Result, private Capital has been more freely applied to useful public Enterprizes, undertaken through the friendly Co-operation of Individuals interested in the Welfare of Ireland.
We thank Your Majesty for informing us that You have carried into effect, in the Spirit in which it was conceived, the Act for the more effectual Application of Charitable Donations and Bequests.
In obedience to Your Majesty's Commands we will take into our Consideration the Policy of improving and extending the Opportunities for Academical Education in Ireland.
We beg leave to thank Your Majesty for informing us that the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the Law and Practice in respect to the Occupation of Land is nearly prepared, and that immediately after its Presentation it shall be laid before us.
We assure Your Majesty that We will give our best Attention to the State of the Law in regard to the Privileges of the Bank of Ireland, and to other Banking Establishments in that Country, and in Scotland.
We thank Your Majesty for informing us that the Report of the Commission for inquiring into the Health of the Inhabitants of large Towns and populous Districts in this Part of the United Kingdom shall be laid before us, and we cordially trust that the Information and Suggestions contained therein will enable us to devise the Means of promoting the Health and Comfort of the poorer Classes of Your Majesty's Subjects.
We beg Leave to express our Thanks to Your Majesty for congratulating us on the Success of the Measures which Three Years since were adopted by Parliament for the Purpose of supplying the Deficiency in the Public Revenue, and arresting the Accumulation of Debt in the Time of Peace; and for directing our Attention to the Circumstance that the Act which was passed at that Time for imposing a Tax upon Income will shortly expire; and we assure Your Majesty that we will give our best Consideration to determine whether it

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may not be expedient to continue its Operation for a further Period, and thus to obtain the Means of adequately providing for the Public Service, and at the same Time of making a Reduction in other Taxation.
Your Majesty may rest assured that it will be our Determination to maintain an Amount of Revenue amply sufficient to meet the Expenditure of the Country, and firmly to uphold that Public Credit which is indispensable to the National Welfare.
We shall be prepared to take into our Consideration the important Matters to which Your Majesty has directed our Attention, for which the Prospect of continued Peace, and the general State of Domestic Prosperity and Tranquillity, afford so favourable an Opportunity; and we join in Your Majesty's earnest Prayer that we may be enabled, under the superintending Care and Protection of Divine Providence, to strengthen the Feelings of mutual Confidence and Good Will between different Classes of Your Majesty's Subjects, and to improve the Condition of Your Majesty's People.
Lord Glenlyon: My Lords, I rise to second the Motion of my Friend the noble Marquess, and which your Lordships have just heard read, that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, in answer to Her Majesty's most Gracious Speech from the Throne. My Lords, I cannot but feel some diffidence in addressing your Lordships for the first time on the present occasion, the more especially when I consider the importance of the duty which now devolves on me; but after the very able manner in which the noble Marquess has already treated the subject before us, my task will be comparatively light, and I shall trespass but for a very short time on your Lordships' patience. My Lords, the improved state of the country, the increased activity pervading almost every branch of manufacture, the extension of trade and commerce, mentioned at the commencement of Her Majesty's most Gracious Speech, must be a matter of sincere congratulation to us all. The spirit of loyalty and cheerful obedience to the law, so feelingly alluded to by Her Majesty, has been manifested in every part of the kingdom. On every occasion, and in every place which Her Majesty has honoured with Her presence, She has been received with the utmost demonstration of loyal attachment by every class of Her subjects. On the late occasion
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of the royal visit to Scotland, it was a source of the greatest gratification to me to witness, as I constantly did, the devoted and respectful loyalty of my countrymen. But, my Lords, can we wonder at those feelings of attachment to Her Majesty, when Her Majesty's kind consideration for the welfare of her people is remembered? I can safely affirm that Her Majesty has left behind Her but one feeling in the hearts of Her Highlanders, those of pure affection and devoted loyalty. Again, on the occasion of Her Majesty's visit to the City, at the opening of the Royal Exchange, the most enthusiastic loyalty and good order was manifested by the immense crowds assembled throughout the whole of Her Majesty's progress. Your Lordships will, I trust, agree with me in thinking, that these general exhibitions of loyalty and cheerful obedience to the law, are proofs not only of personal attachment to our beloved Sovereign, but also of an increased and increasing confidence in Her Majesty's Ministers. My Lords, the past year has been rendered remarkable by the visits of an unusual number of Foreign Sovereigns to this country, a proof no less of their regard of our beloved Queen, than of their desire to maintain undiminished their amicable relations with this country. The visit of the Emperor of Russia, undertaken at great personal inconvenience, was a striking instance of the desire of that Monarch to keep up that very ancient alliance that has existed between these powerful nations, so important to the best interests of both. The visit of the King of the French, and the manner in which he was received in this country, must have been most gratifying to your Lordships, more especially after the differences that had arisen between the two nations in distant quarters of the globe, the adjustment of which, effected by the good feeling existing between the two Governments, was alluded to in the Royal Speech, at the prorogation of the last Session of Parliament. In the third paragraph allusion is made to the Navy. My Lords, our commerce was never, I believe, in a more flourishing condition than it is at the present moment. Since the introduction of steam it has advanced with vast strides, and the facilities of a rapid communication with all quarters of the globe, have been greatly increased. My Lords, to preserve our commerce must ever be of the utmost importance to us, and for that purpose, as well as for the safety and welfare of our own island and our colonies, we must do

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our utmost to maintain undiminished our naval superiority; but the introduction of steam, though it has produced many advantages has at the same time brought with it increased expense, and a larger sum will now be requisite for the complete establishment of our steam navy. Under these circumstances, I sincerely trust that an adequate sum may be readily voted by the other House, to enable the wooden walls of Old England to be, as they ever have been, the defence of our commerce in time of peace, and the terror of our foes, should we unhappily ever be engaged in war. Her Majesty next alludes to Ireland, and says, that She is happy to observe the improved condition of that country. My Lords, Ireland and its condition is a subject which has often been discussed by your Lordships, and with regard to it, I need not at present say more than that I am sure your Lordships will do all that lies in your power to ameliorate the condition of that country. Her Majesty likewise alludes to the Commission which has been appointed, and the Report of which will shortly be laid before your Lordships, to inquire into the Sanatory Improvements which may be deemed advisable to be adopted for the benefit of the poorer classes. This will be matter of discussion at the proper time, and your Lordships I am sure will do whatever tends to the advantage of those classes. I consider that anything that can be done towards the draining of towns, or the making of parks, or anything that can conduce to the health and comfort of the poorer orders, will be of the greatest benefit to them, and will be adopted by your Lordships. In conclusion, my Lords, allow me to thank your Lordships for the kind manner in which you have been pleased to listen to this my first attempt to address your House. My eyesight is not such as to allow me to see the different heads of the Speech, and I cannot remember all the paragraphs of it. There are several which I have not adverted to, because the noble Marquess touched so ably upon them. I will detain your Lordships no longer than to beg of you all to join in Her Majesty's earnest prayer for the peace and prosperity of this country, and the world at large.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that if before he had listened to the speeches of the two noble Lords, the Mover and Seconder of the Address, he had not anticipated that it would be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships with any observations which need much delay, or tend to disturb
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the vote which they were desirous should be come to, having now had the pleasure of hearing both noble Lords, certainly nothing had fallen from them which was calculated to change his original intention. Even one opinion which his noble Friend had expressed, he should content himself with merely dissenting from; but his noble Friend must not think from his silence that he at all admitted his logic, when his noble Friend had, in referring to those demonstrations of loyalty which Her Majesty so well deserved, and so constantly received, also chosen to construe them into a proof of the increase of respect entertained for Her Majesty's Ministers. He did not agree with his noble Friend. Indeed he thought that his noble Friend must have known that there might exist a clan-like loyalty, a loyalty concentrated in affection for the Sovereign, and perfectly independent of Ministerial measures. The Speech contained allusions to other topics, which he had frequently brought before their Lordships' notice, but upon which it was not his intention now to dilate, as other opportunities would be offered for doing so; but their Lordships would not think he was doing wrong in making a few observations upon them. He was aware that it was not convenient to enter into a discussion at a time when the proposal of an Address in Answer to Her Majesty's Speech had become so much a matter of form, that it was hardly necessary now to say, that in assenting to that Address no noble Lord was to be supposed as assenting to the construction put upon it by the noble Lords who recommended it to their adoption. If such were not the case, it would be necessary to discuss its topics more at length, and for the purpose of doing that they should adopt that which was the practice in other countries, and perhaps an improvement upon their own, of having some days to consider the Royal Speech before they were called upon to pronounce an opinion respecting it. Such was not the custom here. Such had not been the custom when the Government was conducted on well-defined principles, and when, therefore, it might not be so necessary as it was at this moment. It would be no safe speculation in the present administration of affairs, that they would not be called upon to support that which they had previously on the same recommendation opposed, or that if support had previously conciliated by holding out certain expectations, a different course might

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not now be proposed. In assenting, therefore, to the Address, one must protest, us usual, how very little was meant by that accustomed form. One of the two topics on which he wished to make a few observations, would be found occupying a prominent position in Her Majesty's Speech; he meant as to the state of Ireland. He was anxious to refer to that subject, because at the close of last Session he had stated to their Lordships that it was his intention to call their attention to the state of Ireland at the earliest opportunity; that he should feel obliged to take the earliest opportunity of making a Motion on the general state of Ireland. He wished now to say, that in not persevering with that Motion, he at the same time considered that Ireland was, in some respects, in a more distracted state than she had been for a long time previously. He wished, however, to leave for the present the responsibility of conducting the affairs of that country upon noble Lords opposite: he wished to leave them that responsibility, until he saw what were those measures that had been dimly shadowed forth in this Address, and how its promises were to be fulfilled. It was not, then, his intention to call their Lordships' attention to the state of Ireland; he did not do so, because he hoped that some of the measures that were promised to them might be such as he could willingly assent to and readily support. While he said this, he must observe, that he could not agree in the wide interpretation that had been put upon that sentence of Her Majesty's Speech, which stated that there had been "a gradual abatement of agitation and excitement" in Ireland. That might be technically true, and yet not accurately correct. There might be, and he believed that there was, less of the outward appearances of agitation — there might not seem to be so much of agitation in a particular direction—indeed it was not possible that such outward demonstrations could be long maintained stationary — he wished, he felt sure, it was attributable to the feeling on the part of the Irish people of the impracticability of one measure for which they had been agitating—he meant Repeal—and he hoped it was so; but this he must say, and their Lordships might depend upon it, that unless some more comprehensive measures of justice were proposed for Ireland than those shadowed forth in the Speech, they never would be able to secure the affections of the Irish people, and never could look
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for, never could calculate upon, the permanent tranquillity and progressive improvement of Ireland. He believed that the measures which Her Majesty's Government was likely to propose, would be such as, as far as they went, he should be able to support. Certainly if they should prove somewhat inconsistent with the opinions avowed by noble Lords opposite on former occasions, it was not for him to complain; it was not for him to object to noble Lords pursuing a course which in fact rendered tardy justice to the views always entertained by himself and his noble friends around him as to the government of that country: these were questions which history would record, and on which posterity would decide. He felt that it would be unworthy of him to use it as a topic of reproach, although he could not avoid making it a subject of reflection, when he considered how slight must be the hopes of noble Lords opposite, considering their ill-success hitherto, that any confidence could accompany their attempts to conciliate the Irish people. He need not go farther back upon this subject than two years—he need but to remind their Lordships that the Home Secretary of the present Government—the Minister to whom the government of Ireland is entrusted as a peculiar charge—had declared in his place in Parliament, that "concession had reached its limits." When such was the case, when the people of Ireland felt that since that time they had done nothing to establish peculiar claims to the favour of noble Lords opposite, when he recollected that declaration, and with it the events that had since occurred, he must say, that he could not wonder at the small success which had attended the measures of noble Lords opposite to conciliate the Irish people. One Bill had been particularly alluded to in the Speech from the Throne; it was one to which he had given his cordial support last Session—he meant the Roman Catholic Charitable Donations and Bequests Bill—the most important part of it was that which established a more fair and a more impartial Board for the distribution and management of charities than had previously existed. He felt convinced that the provisions, that the objects of that Bill were to confer an advantage not previously possessed; but he regretted that there should be provisions in the measure which were considered objectionable by persons professing the Roman Catholic religion. He acquitted, fully acquitted, noble Lords of the intention of in-

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serting Clauses in that Bill calculated to impede the attainment of the object they professed a desire to accomplish. He gave them credit for the best intentions; but at the same time he repeated his regret that they had not consulted, before they carried their measure, some of those prelates who had since consented to accept office under it. He surmised, however, from the statement of Archbishop Murray, that some of the clauses objected to, might be amended. In Her Majesty's Speech credit was claimed for the Charitable Bequests Act, and for the spirit in which it was conceived and carried, and he gave to noble Lords opposite thorough credit for having done so. It was not for him to say whether the appointment of the clerical Commissioners was or was not technically inconsistent with the clause in the Emancipation Act, prohibiting Roman Catholic prelates from taking titles due to them on account of their position in the Church to which they belonged. Perhaps this was not technically inconsistent, but it certainly looked inconsistent with the spirit of the clause of the Emancipation Act, which was proposed with the intention of not permitting the dignitaries of the Catholic Church to assume those titles which they used as prelates of that religion—the religion, he might observe, of the great majority of the people of Ireland. Considering that such was the position of those prelates, he certainly did not object to the rank and precedence that had been given to them on the Commission. He could not, whilst he said this, but feel, however, that if he had had the good fortune to assist in passing such an Act, whilst he was in Ireland, he believed noble Lords opposite would have loudly exclaimed against it; that if he had proposed to a noble Lord, who, as he was not then in the House, he would name, the Earl of Donoughmore, that he should give place and precedence to Dr. Murray and Dr. Crolly above that noble Lord in respect of their rank and title as Archbishops, no railroad could have travelled fast enough for the noble Lord to bring him down there, to lay before their Lordships' House a formal complaint against him for the extraordinary innovation attempted by him and the then existing Government in Ireland. He was sure that this would have occurred to himself, when he saw then in the House a right rev. Prelate, who had rated him most soundly on a former occasion, when in discussing a matter connected with Canada,
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he had given to a Catholic prelate the title of Bishop of Quebec. In discussing that point, he was obliged to defend himself by saying, that if he had erred he had only followed the precedent that had been set him by other noble Lords. He called now upon noble Lords opposite—he put it to them—whether they considered it right any longer to persevere in the inconsistency of refusing to those prelates titles which belonged to them as Roman Catholic bishops, and which were derived from the dioceses over which they presided, when at the same time they placed them on a Commission for the purpose of deciding the limits of these very dioceses? It seemed to him to be actually childish to persevere in maintaining such objectionable provisions. He had not seen the Act lately, and there were many noble Lords present who were able to construe it much more correctly than he was—but he believed the Act said that the Roman Catholic prelates were not to assume the titles of dioceses the titles of which there were other persons authorized by law to assume. Now, there was no Protestant Archbishop of Tuam; therefore, Dr. M'Hale, he believed, might call himself by that title; on the other hand, Archbishop Murray and Dr. Crolly could not, as the law stood, take the titles of the dioceses of which they were respectively the heads; so that the law had this unjust operation, that while it gave to some prelates the power of taking the titles of their dioceses, it withheld that power from others. He wished to say one word more in connexion with Ireland; it had reference to the promise contained in Her Majesty's Speech that shortly would be laid before this House the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the Law and Practice with regard to the occupation of Land in Ireland. Their Lordships would recollect that early in the last Session of Parliament he expressed his extreme distrust with respect to the beneficial results which might be expected to arise out of that Commission; and from all the information he had since received he was confirmed in the opinion that it had excited expectations from one end of Ireland to the other which it would be difficult for any report, or legislation founded upon any report, ever to fulfil. But as the Comission was appointed, and its Report was now nearly completed, he did trust that there would be no unnecessary delay, not only in placing it before Parliament, but in stating to Parliament whether the Government

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did or did not intend to propose any legislative measure upon the subject; because he could assure their Lordships that the excitement in various parts of Ireland, and the erroneous and unfounded expectations it had given rise to, were doing more mischief than the "political agitation and excitement," the abatement of which had been referred to with such satisfaction in Her Majesty's Speech. Strictly speaking, he believed that at this moment there was less agitation in Ireland than during the last year. He also believed that that agitation would not have continued so long, but for the ill-advised, ill-timed, and ill-conducted interference of the Government. However, he was not anxious to revert to that subject He had heard, with a regret which must be felt by every one anxious for the welfare of Ireland, that many parts of it were now in a state of great disquietude—that prædial outrages and crimes had been committed, and greater disturbance existed in the country than had existed for many years. Formerly this subject had been made use of, and had been employed for the purpose of attack upon the Government of the day, and, as he thought, most unjustly; for, whilst he was connected with the Administration in Ireland, he had proved irresistibly, he had by figures demonstrated, that crimes were less then than they had been at former times; and he stated farther, that of which he was ready to give noble Lords opposite now the advantage, that such crimes were not attributable to the Government of the day—that their causes were to be traced much farther back—that they were to be found in centuries of misrule—in the neglect of Governments for successive ages, and that they could not with any justice be laid upon any one Government in particular. He said, then, that whilst he cast no blame upon the existing Government, he could not but express his regret at the number of outrages that had lately been committed in Ireland. With respect to other topics referred to in the Address, he had already observed that it was not convenient, at that moment, to go through them. In fact, there was no great difference of opinion upon many of them between himself and the noble Lords who had introduced the Address to their notice. Every one who wished to see his country prosperous, must feel, in common with the Government and the noble Mover and Seconder of the Address, the greatest satisfaction at the activity and prosperity
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which now pervaded commerce and manufactures; but whilst they were grateful for what they possessed, they should ever recollect that this was one of those changes, as regular as the ebb and flow of the tide—that it was one of the periodical intervals of prosperity that followed distress,—and hitherto, alas! had as certainly been followed by adversity. He hoped and trusted that the present satisfactory condition of public industry would be of longer duration, and be better founded than heretofore; at any rate, no one could claim credit for what was known to be of periodical recurrence under every Government, whatever might be its principles; for that Government, in his opinion, could alone claim credit which could by its measures prevent the recurrence of periods of distress, and save them from the pressure that hitherto had been immediately consequent upon times of prosperity. He was also one of those who derived the most sincere pleasure from the existence of good relations with our neighbour France, and the other Powers to which allusion had been made in the Speech of Her Majesty; knowing, however, the susceptibility that existed in France as to any observations made respecting it in either House of Parliament, he believed he should best promote the object they had at heart by saying as little as possible with reference to it, particularly as that was not a convenient moment for giving any opinion upon details connected with recent transactions. He would merely observe, that no one was more anxious than himself for the preservation of peace and the maintenance of those good relations which it was the interest of both countries alike to promote. It might be unusual to allude to the visits of foreign Sovereigns; but the occasion of two such distinguished individuals, distinguished as much by their personal character as by their exalted stations, visiting this country in the same year, was so remarkable, that he cordially agreed in the observations which had been made by the noble Lord opposite. He came now to one other topic, which he approached with feelings of deep satisfaction; he believed it to be one of paramount importance,—it was one which he had often brought before their Lordships' attention—he meant the allusion in the Speech from the Throne to the Report on the Sanatory Condition of the people, and the gracious expressions which had been uttered by Her Majesty—than whom, he believed, no one in the

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country felt a warmer interest in the welfare of the people—when she stated the gratification she should experience if the information and suggestions contained in the Report would enable Parliament to devise measures for promoting the health and comfort of the poorer classes of her subjects. He could not refer to this matter without recollecting how much the country was indebted to their Lordships for the steps they had adopted on the subject, for the kind interest they had taken in it, for the devotion of their Committees, and the attention which the authorities of the House had paid to those measures which passed unanimously through the House when brought before their Lordships by the person who now had the honour of addressing them; though on questions of general policy the Government of that day did not receive their support. He felt confident that the Report to be laid before them would be followed by some good measure, or such gracious mention of the subject would not have been made, and he trusted that by such measure they would have the means, not only of alleviating the sickness, disease, and misery, which were at present so widely diffused over the country, and of repairing the past neglect of many years; but that such a measure might be passed as would be a blessing to future generations; that through its means, might be born, with all the freshness, strength, and vigour of life, a race of men, gifted with that physical superiority that once distinguished, and might again belong to Englishmen, and which, connected with their higher moral energies, constitute the surest foundation for our national greatness. He concluded by expressing his earnest, his sincere feelings of gratification, upon finding this subject referred to in Her Majestys gracious Speech.
The Duke of Richmondstated that it was not his intention to address their Lordships for more than a few minutes; nor in rising had he, he assured them, any intention of proposing an amendment on the Address. He must, however, say that there was one omission in the Queen's Speech which he was obliged, with considerable regret, to notice. Her Majesty began Her Speech by saying, "I rejoice that I am enabled, on again meeting you in Parliament, to congratulate you on the improved condition of the country." Was not agriculture, he asked them, a part, a portion of the country? Was there
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a man in that House who did not consider it desirable that the tenantry of the country should be in a "prosperous condition"? Were the tenantry prosperous? Was there a single individual in that House who did not know that the tenant had in the past year lost a great deal of his capital—a great deal of his property? He rose to call their Lordships' attention to this. He believed that the Government did not bestow any attention to that fact. He did not find fault with them; for he never saw a Government that troubled themselves much about agriculture; as soon as any set of men got into office, he found that they forgot that there was such a thing as agriculture. They had a Board of Trade which communicated with the Government on trade and commerce: they had no such thing for agriculture—agriculture had no Board to make known its wants, it was therefore overlooked; that was the reason why the Government of this country was never aware of the state of agriculture and the agricultural body. He could state that there had been very great distress amongst them, and that distress ought to have been adverted to in the Queen's Speech. There was another recommendation in that Speech, that the Income-tax should be continued. It was not his intention to dwell upon this subject; but if the Income-tax were re-enacted, he wished to know whether anything could be done to remedy the inequality with which it pressed in the case of the agricultural tenant? When the farmer paid a rent of 300 l. a-year, he was charged as if his profits were 150 l., whereas every other class of traders were charged upon an exact account of their actual profits. When the farmer lost his money he was, however, charged just the same as if he had gained. It was impossible for him at present to pay, with the low price he was receiving for his produce. He did not mean to make a Corn-Law speech. He felt that it was only necessary for him to rise at present to know why agriculture had not been mentioned, and to inform the Government that the more they inquired into it, the more true would they find that agriculture was distressed.
The Duke of Montrosewished to take the earliest opportunity of referring to the intimation that had been given as to an interference with the currency and the system of banking in Scotland. That system, he wished to observe, had been attended with the most complete success, and it had now stood the test of a century and a half.

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The great mass of the community, who had derived considerable benefit from it, and who had the best opportunities of forming a judgment respecting it, had signified their complete satisfaction with the system as it stood. There had been great meetings of Chambers of Commerce, and of persons engaged in trade, as well as county meetings, all of which appeared to be actuated by the same feelings of its advantages. He therefore earnestly deprecated any interference with that system in order to change what was generally approved. Why, at any rate, should any change be made just now, when no one word was put forth against the system by anybody, when it was admitted to be free from the evils which were complained of in the English banking system? To him, he must say, it was matter of surprise that any Government should run a risk by interfering and substituting something which might not work so well. These, he was persuaded, were the feelings of the constituencies; they were the feelings of every one of the representatives for Scotland, and they would, to a man, oppose any great alteration of the system; he did hope, therefore, that the alterations which the Government meant to bring forward might be of a trivial nature only, and therefore such as he and others could concur in.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he had not intended to trouble their Lordships, but he could not allow the observations which had fallen from the two noble Lords who had spoken last to go without reply. In the first place, his noble Friend on the front Bench (the Duke of Richmond) had complained, that in the Speech Her Majesty's Ministers had not rightly stated the condition of the country, and then he found fault with them because the state of the farmer was not so flourishing as it had been. Now, if his noble Friend would look to the paragraph to which his observations referred, his noble Friend would find that the remark respecting the improved state of the country was confined to the condition of the manufacturing, commercial, and trading parts of the community, and did not make any allusion whatever to agriculture, or the farming part of the community. Then with regard to his other noble Friend who spoke of the paragraph in the Queen's Speech which referred to the proposed change in the banking system in Scotland, his noble Friend had introduced a word which was not contained in the Speech. His noble Friend talked
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of a change in "the Currency,"—now if his noble Friend referred to the Speech, he would find a reference to the banking establishments of Scotland, but not a word about "the Currency." But he would not say a word more, because he should be sorry that anything which fell from him should interrupt the unanimity which prevailed.
Lord Brougham: I do not, my Lords, rise for the purpose of prolonging a debate in which there is no difference of opinion entertained upon the several topics introduced into Her Majesty's gracious Speech; whilst, with the noble Marquess, I do not wish to be understood as pledging myself upon those topics, because we are in the dark as to the measures that have been shadowed forth—vaguely shadowed forth, and properly so—in the paragraphs of the Speech delivered from the Throne. No noble Lord, therefore, will be understood as pledged to acquiesce in the measures that may grow out of the Speech. Amongst the matters not vaguely referred to is that of the financial condition of the country—the improved condition, generally, of the country that has taken place since, two years ago, I felt it my most painful duty to call your attention to the situation under which then laboured a large and important class of the community. A contrast more remarkable between the state of the manufacturing classes then, and their present condition, there cannot be. I am, my Lords, the more gratified in contemplating that change, and observing upon that contrast, when I remark, as I have a right to do from the facts, that the improvement is not topical, nor confined to one or two branches, but has been general, and this is to be seen, from the state of the receipts of our Excise and our Customs, those great indications of the actual condition of the foreign and domestic trade of the country. The Excise in particular marks also an increase of comforts amongst our fellow subjects. Nothing can be more gratifying to the feelings, in regarding this subject—nothing can be more pleasing, in looking to the financial condition of the country—than to find that the increase of the revenue, and the improvement in trade, are greater last year than the year before, and that year was an increase on its predecessor, and that, an increase on the year 1841. Nothing can be more gratifying to a statesman than this, because, being gradual, it is so much the more steady, and becomes, so to speak, trustworthy proof

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of decided and permanent improvement. And this leads to what I first alluded to, as being less indefinite than the rest of the Speech—I mean the reference made to the Income-tax. My Lords, I wish on no account to be considered as pledging myself by any vote I may give on the Address, and in favour of the Motion of the noble Marquess (Marquess Camden), whom I have heard for the first time with great satisfaction—for every one must feel that the name of the noble Marquess is connected with some of the greatest recollections of this House, I mean those of his illustrious ancestors, one of whom once presided here, and another of whom, the immediate predecessor of the noble Marquess, no subject of this country should ever name without the utmost gratitude for a splendid generosity which has never been surpassed by any other subject of the Crown, and which, I grieve to say, from the thoughtlessness of mankind, has never been made adequately the subject of national commemoration and public thanks. My Lords, to that noble Marquess's observations generally, and amongst others those on this part of the Speech, in giving my concurrence, I do so without pledging myself either for or against the Income-tax. It will depend entirely on what are the other taxes to be repealed, whether I shall be for giving up, or for continuing it. Until I see what taxes are to be kept, and what to be repealed, I am not prepared to say whether or not I should give up the Income-tax. It has many advantages, but it has also many grievous drawbacks and most serious evils attending it. If the question merely was whether we should abandon the Income-tax or keep it on, and that were to depend on whether we should find any other tax to put in its place, which was less prejudicial to the country, and less grievous to the payer of the tax, there would be less difficulty in deciding as to the giving of it up; for I can hardly conceive a tax which has so many objections to it as an impost merely. The matter will be discussed, however, on totally different grounds. If other taxes can safely be abandoned; if other taxes, which now press upon the industry of the country — taxes which cramp and fetter and stunt the productive powers of the country's industry, which oppress the trade and manufactures of the country—our insurance taxes, for instance, which send large branches of insurance business to be transacted in Hamburg and Amsterdam—bad manufacturing taxes—if I may so
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speak—I mean the taxes which press on the raw material used in manufacturing—if these, and such as these, are to be given up, those the removal of which may give a spring to our foreign trade, and a spring also to our home manufactures, and, above all, may at the same time materially relieve the consumers in the lower and middle classes of society—then would I be prepared to give a most favourable hearing, with all my strong prejudices against the Income-tax, to a proposal for continuing it. The question, therefore, merely is, as to what those other measures are to be, and not a question abstractedly on the merits of the tax. I have listened with the utmost satisfaction to one part of the gracious Speech from the Throne—I mean that part which relates to the proposed increase in the means of Academical Instruction in the sister country. But as that is a subject of a very large and somewhat delicate nature, and as we shall have an opportunity soon of addressing ourselves to a detailed consideration of it, I now do no more than simply express my gratification at its announcement. With respect to the congratulations which the noble Marques justly calls upon us to present to Her Majesty upon the improved condition of Ireland in respect to political agitation and internal peace, I do not wish at all to dwell upon this topic, or to answer what fell from my noble Friend (the Marquess of Normanby) in connexion with it, because I am, above everything, desirous of avoiding all chances for differences of opinion on an occasion which presents no necessity for any such dissensions; but I will only beg that my silence on the question may not be construed into an assent to the only part of my noble Friend's fair and candid speech with which I feel any disposition to differ. I don't assent to the view taken of the agitation in Ireland. Until the judicial question which had been before your Lordships last Session had been disposed of, an opportunity was not offered for considering this question; that judicial question has been decided, and now such an opportunity is afforded of bringing the policy of those prosecutions before your Lordships, and of taking your opinion upon them. When any noble Lord will bring the subject forward, I shall be ready to give it as my opinion that to those prosecutions much of the tranquillity of that country is now to be attributed. Thus much I feel bound to say, but further I purposely abstain from

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entering into that question just now. And now, as regards a part of the Speech in which all will agree—that which alludes to the royal visits recently paid to Her Majesty — the visits of two of the most powerful Sovereigns of Europe, and of the amiable and accomplished King of Saxony, have diffused universal satisfaction. But I particularly do congratulate this country and your Lordships on the visit of the illustrious monarch who last graced our Court with his presence; and, if your Lordships will permit me, I will take leave to say, that the effects of that visit here and the reception which His Majesty the King of the French met with in this land, are not confined to the gracious Sovereign who received him, or to the brilliant Court by which both were surrounded, or to the people, all classes of whom, as Her Majesty justly observes, hailed his presence with gratification, and saw his departure with concern; but that across the Channel — in France itself—the happiest effects have been produced by His Majesty's reception here. An improved feeling exists in that country towards this; and those difficulties—most of which have been happily overcome, and the remainder of which I confidently hope will speedily be overcome too — those difficulties have been overcome without any sacrifice either of interest or of honour or even of mere etiquette; without any concessions, or any shadow of concession, either on the one part or on the other. Neither is there any alliance between this country and France, nor is there any concession of this country to France, nor have there been any concessions whatever by France to England, but on equal terms, as became two great nations, on terms of perfect, of absolute, and of unbroken equality: without alliance, but without ill-will; with perfect friendship—with more than neutrality — with perfect amity and cordial good understanding have these questions been disposed of; but, I repeat it, without alliance and without the shadow of concession either being asked by one party or given by the other. This is the footing on which these two great Powers must continue to act—this is the position in which these two great nations must continue to stand relatively, the one Power to the other, if they desire to preserve peace unbroken; and, preserving their own peace, to guard the peace of the world. And this should be the language of both the puissant monarchs at the head of these mighty empires:
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"Non ego, nec Teucris Italos parere jubebo,
Nec mihi regna peto: paribus se legibus ambæ
Invictæ gentes"—I say, "Ambæ
Invictæ gentes—æterna in fœdera mittant."
And why, in the name of common sense, should either the one or the other of these great princes, or the subjects of either, ask to have any accessions made to the dominions they already possess? England, possessed of an empire already on which the sun never sets — with every variety of soil, climate, produce, and people; and France, with her countless millions in the centre of Europe? None can feel greater astonishment than I always feel to see France adopting a policy which is certainly none of the wisest, keeping an army of 90,000 men shut up in Africa, and spending 100,000,000 francs a year only to gain a little more territory, which only produces the same things as are far better produced in France itself—seeking to extend herself on the South of the Mediterranean Sea. Yet if it is the wish of that people so to do, God forbid that any one should prevent them. But to require any new settlements, either for France elsewhere, or for England elsewhere, appears to me to be a folly, which I am almost inclined to term an aberration of the public mind, and which I believe hardly now exists on the other side of the channel. I have seen, indeed, persons pretending to an exclusive knowledge of English policy, who have discovered, as they boast, that our very existence depends on having a monopoly of the commerce of the world. England must live, say these wiseacres, and if she live at all, she must live, say they, by monopolising all commerce; as if the idea of monopolising commerce were not a contradiction in terms, as if it was possible that trade could be monopolised, unless you discover a mode of trading with yourselves, of selling when you have no customers, and buying when you have no markets. This is a doctrine of those foolish people, who, both in this country and in France, pretend all the while they are not the enemies of peace. I am gratified in the highest degree with the greatly improved state of the public feeling towards us in France; gratified, as I continue to be, with the continued goodwill of this country towards France, and with that amicable feeling and that profound and universal respect for the renown of the French name, even for the renown of the French arms, to which I know of no exception whatever, in any statesman who deserves the name in this

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country, or in any portion of the community whose opinions are worthy of the slightest consideration. That those feelings may long continue to animate the statesmen and people of the two nations, and by their continuance to secure the peace of the world, is the most fervent prayer to which I can either publicly here, or elsewhere in private, give utterance. My Lords, I must apologise for having detained your Lordships, perhaps unnecessarily, on the present occasion, but I speak not without some knowledge of the subject; I speak, not merely my own sentiments respecting the French, which are of little moment; but I also am fully aware that I speak the sentiments of all your Lordships; and I know that an expression of what I am aware we all feel, however inadequately I may have given utterance to it, may not be without its good effect.
The Earl of Hardwickesaid, that after the eloquent address to which their Lordships had just listened, and after what had fallen from the Mover and Seconder of the Address, he should be sorry to detain their Lordships for any length of time; but the noble Duke who sat on the cross benches (the Duke of Richmond) had touched a chord which would vibrate through the country; and from the state and feeling of that class of the people commonly known as the agricultural interest, he regretted exceedingly that the noble Lord who had got up to answer the very short and pithy speech of the noble Duke, did not at once express those feelings which he was certain were entertained by Her Majesty's Government towards that most important class of Her Majesty's subjects. From the position of the noble Duke, it was impossible that he could make any address to their Lordships touching the condition and feelings of the agricultural class, without its being felt and considered that some answer was necessary for the satisfaction of that class, and to alleviate their fears; but whether those fears were just or not, he (Lord Hardwicke) would then give no opinion. Were he called on, and it were necessary that he should give an opinion, he should say that of all things in the world he would most have desired that an omission in the Speech should be an omission of reference to that class. His belief was, that if left alone, if permitted to rise by their own industry and their own exertions, if they were left free from legislative enactments, and untouched by a press which pandered to the appetites of a particular class in this country—whose
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desire was to raise agitation throughout the country for purposes best known to themselves,—if left alone on these points, there was no question that the agricultural interest itself would triumph over the difficulties which now beset it. In any allusion made to that class, it should be remembered that when the present Government first came into power it had difficulties to contend with in reference to all classes. Did they forget the depression of all classes at that time? How totally depressed were the manufacturing interests of the country? Could they suppose for a moment, that, after a depression of that sort, that after the suffering of so large a portion of the people, that after they had been deprived, in a great degree, of the means of securing the common necessaries of life, that after such suffering that depression was not equally felt by every class of the people? In every instance, in this country, whenever the commercial classes have suffered, there had been corresponding suffering on the part of the agricultural class. Were they then to introduce, on every occasion, into a Speech, words which would have little meaning? It was perfectly true, that it might be well to sorrow for the agriculturists; but a mere expression of sorrow in the Queen's Speech would do them no good. Alleviative measures were asked for, but he would ask the noble Duke to give them these measures, and let them know what he was going to do with the existing state of the country. When that question came before the House, in whatsoever shape it might, no Government that ever wielded the destinies of this Empire ever showed itself more ready than the present would do to lend a willing ear to any class which might suffer oppression; and the agricultural, like every other class, would find in that Government a strong desire to do justice on all occasions, always remembering, that when they used the word "class," there were more classes than one. It was impossible for their Lordships not to be aware that the agricultural interests were depressed. It was impossible that any one could know this better than did the noble Lords in that House, who were so deeply interested in the welfare of the agricultural class. But was it necessary, he would again ask, unless they were able to bring forward measures which would alleviate that class, without leading to questions of such importance as would arise again in the public mind and feeling on a subject from which they had just been relieved, or would it be consistent with

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all the other proceedings of the Government, to introduce into Her Majesty's Speech words which would of themselves have no direct meaning?
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that in replying to the noble Earl, he should have felt very great pleasure if in the reply he made to the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond), he had expressed something of that sympathy which he (the noble Earl) said he felt for the agricultural interest. A very few words, although they had not been inserted in Her Majesty's Speech, would have been to the agriculturists a great consolation. He (Lord Malmesbury) had never in his life seen them so depressed or so much out of spirits as at the present moment. The noble Earl who had just spoken, told them that it would have been improper had any expression of sympathy on the part of Her Majesty been inserted in the Speech. It would not, however, have been the first time that such expressions of sympathy had appeared in Her Majesty's Speech. If it would have been the first time, he was wrong. But if sympathy had ever been thus expressed before, he saw no reason why it should not have been repeated on this occasion.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that he found himself a little in that situation which had been the motive which induced so many other noble Lords to address their Lordships—that, not objecting to the Address, he apprehended that his silence might be construed into an acquiescence in some opinions or in some views which he could not conscientiously support; and the more particular motive which induced him to rise on that occasion, was that which fell—though in a very guarded and conciliatory manner—from his noble and learned Friend beside him (Lord Brougham), with regard to proceedings which had lately taken place in Ireland. His noble and learned Friend having alluded to the circumstance that during the whole of the last Session of Parliament, in deference to the pending judgment of that House, no discussions had taken place in that House relating to the State Trials in Ireland, and having connected that observation with the additional observation that now an opportunity was found for considering the spirit of these proceedings, and the motives with which they were instituted, he (Lord Lansdowne) was certainly anxious to take that first opportunity, in case another should not be afforded him, of protesting that his judgment upon these proceedings was not that of approbation.
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All that he claimed in behalf of the forbearance which he had hitherto exercised on that subject was, that in so doing he might not be supposed to approve of the mode in which these trials had been conducted. But in what situation did he find himself now, and in what situation did the House now find itself? At the close of these proceedings, that House had, by a solemn judgment, set aside the decision of the Courts of Law in Ireland. Whatever opinions, after that judgment had been pronounced in that House, he might entertain in respect to the way in which these proceedings had been carried on in Ireland, he certainly, for one, was contented with that judgment. He would not then raise topics which could not be discussed in that House without raising a spirit which he would be sorry to see excited again—and without calling forth, in this country and in Ireland, a misapprehension as to the motives and spirit in which such propositions should be made. All therefore which he would then say on that subject—and he would say it without presuming to offer now what he had not presumed to offer at the time, any opinion as to the merits of the judgment which that House, after hearing the opinions of the noble and learned Lords so competent to judge of the subject, had pronounced—was, that whatever might be the merits of that judgment, he considered it to be one of the circumstances which had led to a better state of feeling in Ireland amongst the more rational of the people whose opinions composed the public opinion of that country; because he thought it impossible for any persons in Ireland to contemplate the care, and caution, and the forbearance with which that House had endeavoured to secure to the people of Ireland the most perfect enjoyment of the most valuable privilege of the British Constitution—the Trial by Jury—without feeling that they have been indebted to this branch of the Legislature of the United Kingdom for a degree of care and attention to their peace and to their privileges, which under no Government and under no Constitution could they have obtained to a greater degree. He believed that at this moment, and in that respect he joined in the language of the Address, that whatever unhappy dispositions might prevail amongst the misguided lower classes in Ireland, there did prevail among the higher classes a better tone, a better state of feeling than had existed in that country for a long time

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past; and among the circumstances to which he attributed that, it was assuredly owing, in a great degree, to the respect shown by that House to the feelings and the constitutional rights of the people of that country. He had said so much for the purpose of guarding himself with respect to being committed to any opinion at present, on the subject of the trials. He must add, that he hoped that, now all obstacles being removed to the proceeding proposed by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell)—and no person was better fitted to take up such a subject—his noble and learned Friend might be induced, at a very early period of the Session, to propose again what he had proposed last year, and which was then objected to merely on the ground of the proceedings which were then before the House, viz., an Act the effect of which would be to remove so great a stigma on the law of England, as imposed on a person convicted, the suffering and endurance of that sentence which he should never undergo, until his conviction was complete. A more complete injustice admitted into the administration of the law of any country did not exist; and if his noble and learned Friend again undertook the subject, he felt sure their Lordships would give it their ready assent—not for the benefit of Ireland only, but also for the benefit which England and the English people would derive from such an act. Before quitting the subject of Ireland, he would say, that assenting, as he had already said he did, to every topic in the Address proposed to their Lordships, there was no part of it to which he assented with greater cordiality than the intimation it conveyed that it was now the intention of Her Majesty's Government, at an early period, to take up the subject of extending Academical Education in that country, in such a way as to bring about real extension. On that subject he could assure their Lordships that he had nothing but approbation to express, accompanied perhaps with some degree of sorrow, that Her Majesty's Government had not at an earlier period formed a decided opinion on this subject. He believed that the absence of that extended education, and the existence hitherto of a vicious system of education in that country, had been from year to year producing worse and worse effects, and preventing Her Majesty's Government from administering those effective remedies, which, if they meant to make them effective, must be administered on a large scale,
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with an unsparing hand, and with reference to all the circumstances which exist in the social institutions of that country. On other topics he did not then consider it necessary to trouble their Lordships. There was not one word uttered by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) with regard to the importance of maintaining the peace of Europe, and more particularly peace between this country and France, in which he did not cordially concur. He thought it would be lamentable, indeed, if that peace should be compromised for such interests as those which had lately been brought into question; but what he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) lamented was, that it was notorious to all the world that from such causes our mutual interests had been well nigh compromised, and that we were on the very brink of open hostilities. He considered that as leaving a lesson behind it, which it was important that the Governments of both countries should study; because, acquitting as he did Her Majesty's Government—for he was sure they would not enter into such hostilities unprovoked—and acquitting also the Government of France, the advisers of the King of the French, of any intention of plunging these two countries into war—it would be well for their Lordships to consider how, for want of due explanation in the first instance, that which was small and insignificant in itself had been gradually magnified, and had assumed a character which had threatened permanently to involve in confusion the interests of both countries. He hoped that Her Majesty's Ministers would, on every occasion of that nature which might arise, endeavour to procure in the first instance an explanation of the character of any transaction which might occur, so calculated to call out the passions both of this country and of France. If no such system of explanation obtained between the two countries, all the islands which formed the region of Polynesia might become so many plague spots, out of which might arise the direst consequences. He hoped, however, that if the principle of protectorates were to be admitted into the system of international law, it would be known in the first instance—for the knowledge was most important—what were the rights and privileges of protectorates. In the Law of Nations we found scarcely any authority on the subject. If the last authority published were examined—he meant the excellent book of Mr. Wheaton—there was but one vague sentence in which the

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office of protectorate and its qualities were explained to the reader. In the case of the Treaty of Vienna, by which our protectorate of the Ionian Islands was established, it was well known that it was for the common interests and the common policy of Europe that that authority was imposed, and its extent and privileges were carefully and particularly explained. With reference to any assumed protectorates, it was, he repeated, most important that it should be defined what their rights and privileges were, and that no rights contingent upon such offices should be exercised in any quarter, without their being made by the Governments and the statesmen of both countries, the subject of full consideration, and an explicit declaration being put forth of the objects to which they were to be directed. With regard to another point of the Address to which repeated reference had been made, he begged to say that, although it was perfectly natural for noble Lords on both sides of the House to have taken the present opportunity of expressing their alarm at the state of the agricultural interest, and their apprehension of anything that might be done in the way of legislation, or their hope that something would be done in another sense—although, he said, it was perfectly natural that they should have taken that opportunity of expressing their feelings in the way they had, he did not consider them, as he certainly did not hold himself, bound by the Address as to what might, or what might not, be proposed for the purpose of relieving either that or any other interest. Then again, by adopting the present Address and carrying it to the foot of the Throne, the House would not stand committed to the propriety of continuing the Income Tax. That, as their Lordships well knew, was a subject of the gravest kind; they must know, likewise, that it was a subject which agitated a great many more bosoms throughout the country than did any question relating to Irish Education, or any differences which might arise between England and other countries on such subjects as had recently occupied the attention of the Foreign Offices in Paris or in London. There could be no doubt that the attention of the country would, in the first instance, be directed to that most important and deeply interesting subject; there could be no doubt either that the public would readily enough regard the Speech which the Ministers had advised Her Majesty to make as a species of advertising for advice—a demand for
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suggestions—a significant hint, which in many quarters would be well understood, and the meaning of which was, that the Ministers must continue the Income Tax if they sought to relieve the more productive branches of industry from the weight of fiscal burdens. There could be no doubt that the effect of such a proceeding on the part of the Government would be to bring to their ears a great deal of advice between the present time and the period at which the Budget might be brought under the consideration of the other House of Parliament. Upon that influx of advice, he begged most heartily to wish them joy—he congratulated them upon the quantity of disinterested counsel which they were likely to receive. But though he supported the present Address, he by no means agreed to a continuance of the Income Tax. It was an impost to the continued existence of which he could not bring himself to consent, unless it were clearly shown to him that its maintenance would have the effect of relieving the industrious classes from burdens which oppressed manufacturing skill, and checked commercial enterprise. With feelings such as those which he had that night endeavoured to express, he should go into the question of the Income Tax, and into all others of a similar kind which might be brought under the consideration of Parliament. But, convinced as he was, that voting as he that night intended to vote, would not have the effect of pledging him upon either side of any question, he should support the Address in the terms in which it had been proposed.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that in consequence of what had fallen from the noble Marquess on the subject of our foreign policy, he wished to say a few words. It was quite true that the noble Marquess did not apply to the discussions which had recently taken place between the Governments of France and England, any language which could be construed into a censure upon the conduct pursued either by the one side or by the other. But though there was nothing in his observations amounting to actual censure, yet he complained of the want of a good system of explanation—one calculated to insure the settlement of differences likely to arise between this country and France. Now it had so happened that the satisfactory settlement of the subject of those discussions arose out of the adoption of that very system of explanations which the noble Mar-

39
quess said was so necessary to the preservation of an amicable understanding between the two countries. There was another point on which the noble Marquess had dwelt at some length, namely, the question of protectorates. Now, he wished to observe that the occurrences which had given rise to the recent discussions between the Governments of France and England, had their origin, not in any question between the two Governments on the subject of protectorates, or from any doubtful point connected with the Law of Nations, but from the insulated act of a subordinate officer, unauthorised, uninstructed, and unknown to the Government by which he had been appointed. He so entirely agreed with his noble and learned Friend who had spoken early in the debate, that neither the Government of the one country ought to be prepared to demand, nor that of the other to concede anything that could not, with the utmost honour and the highest sense of the dignity and the interest of both, be cheerfully granted; that he would only say that in the representations which it had been his duty to make to the French Government, he had never thought of asking—indeed, he should have been ashamed to ask anything of the French Government which he should not be prepared, in a similar situation, to advise being conceded on the part of this country. This was the principle upon which he had proceeded throughout the whole of the negotiations, and he did not hesitate to say, that the adoption and recognition of that principle on both sides had led to the happy result upon which they were now enabled to congratulate themselves.
Lord Campbellbegged leave to give notice, that unless a bill similar to that brought in last year in reference to the Criminal Law were again brought forward, he should himself offer a measure to their Lordships on the subject. It would be infinitely preferable that such a Bill should be brought forward by the Government, and he did trust it would; and also with regard to the Bill which he had himself introduced last Session respecting Appeals in Criminal Cases, he should certainly renew his attempt to remove such a discredit to the laws of this country, unless it should be taken up in earnest by the law-officers of the Crown. Although the Queen's Speech was silent respecting legal amendments, their Lordships were aware that various measures of that nature were to be brought forward, and he hoped that means would be
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speedily taken for the purpose. Much had been done in that department, but much still remained to be done. He took it for granted that at an early period of the Session an Ecclesiastical Courts Bill would be laid on the Table. Their Lordships had passed such a Bill last Session, and the Journals of the other House told them, that after one division there, it was abandoned. The state of the Ecclesiastical Courts imperatively required that as speedily as possible some measure should be brought forward respecting them. The law of Debtor and Creditor, too, was now in a very confused and unsatisfactory state. Various questions had arisen upon it, which could only be settled by legislation, and he trusted that either one or other of his noble and learned Friends who now divided the Woolsack,* would at some short period bring forward some satisfactory measure on the subject, and he would earnestly implore them to do so, because they must be aware that serious inconvenience had already arisen from delays; at the conclusion of a Session their Lordships had bills placed before them which they were obliged to try to understand—a task to which no railway speed would be equal. With respect to the Law of Debtor and Creditor, at the conclusion of last Session, his noble and learned Friend on the edge of the Woolsack (Lord Brougham) differed very materially upon that difficult and important question from several of the judges who had to administer the law. If the question had been brought forward early in the Session, probably those differences would not have arisen, and no such difficulty would have been encountered. There was another Bill introduced by his noble and learned Friend in the centre of the Woolsack, respecting the Conveyance of Real Property. That Bill was brought in early in the Session. It slept month after month, and it was only awakened from that profound repose about ten days before the close of the Session, and several clauses were then introduced which had never been heard of before — of which the profession were utterly ignorant—and by one of which the Legislature tried to do that which was impossible—as impossible as it would be to enact that a square was a circle; for to enact that a "contingent remainder" should be an "executory devise," was, as was known to all who were acquainted with the mat-
* Lord Brougham was sitting by the Lord Chancellor.

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ter, utterly impossible. The statute remained a dead letter. It was considered by the profession as utterly absurd, and the only way to deal with it was to treat it pro non scripto. He trusted, therefore, that a measure on the subject would be speedily brought forward by the Government; for it was important that it should be laid early on the Table in order that it might be duly considered, and an early decision come to upon it, in order that they might obtain something like a satisfactory settlement of the law, instead of the confusion and alarm which at present existed.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he was not about to trespass at any length upon their Lordships' attention; but he rose for the purpose of explaining the course which he intended to pursue with respect to the first Bill mentioned by his noble and learned Friend. Their Lordships were aware that a Bill had been brought forward last Session by a noble and learned Friend of his, in consequence of the absence of another noble and learned Lord, with respect to the jurisdiction in criminal cases. He begged to say, that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce during this Session, a Bill of that description, and he begged also to say, that the only ground upon which he objected to the further proceeding in the measure at that time was, that when he considered the history of the Bill, it did appear to him that it was intended to meet a particular case, and to afford relief to a particular individual. It was on that constitutional, and, he might say, legal ground, that he objected to the progress of the Bill. He should be ready to consider any Bill proposed by his noble and learned Friend, and had no objection to his scrutinizing the Bill to be brought forward under the sanction of Her Majesty's Government. With respect to the last Bill, relating to the Transfer of Property, upon which some observations had been made, he must be permitted to say, that the Bill had been on the Table for the consideration of noble Lords for a long time. The first conveyancers in the country had been consulted upon it; printed copies of it had been distributed, and no objections were made to it in its progress. To his noble and learned Friend, who had left the House, he (the Lord Chancellor) had stated that the Bill involved a variety of important provisions, and begged of him to have the kindness to go through it, and to point out any of the provisions which appeared doubtful, stating that he
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should be ready to strike out any which he thought ought not to be in it. His noble and learned Friend objected to some provisions, and they were struck out, and the Bill passed with those exceptions. He believed he had addressed the same observations to his noble and learned Friend, who had referred to the Bill. As it was a Bill which contained many nice points and refined distinctions, he was anxious that it should have the advantage of all the law learning in the House, and his noble and learned Friend would do him the justice to admit that he had desired him to criticise it, in order that by his assistance it might be rendered as perfect as possible. He admitted that in some particular cases difficulties had arisen He had now a Bill in preparation for the purpose of removing those anomalies and inconveniencies. He should have the pleasure of submitting it to his noble and and learned Friend, and in a few days he would lay it before the House. As to the other subject to which his noble and learned Friend referred, if he would prepare any Bill to which he (the Lord Chancellor) could with propriety give his support, it should have every consideration that he could give to it, and all the assistance that he could render to its success. He trusted these explanations would be satisfactory to his noble and learned Friends, and even to his noble and learned Friend who had introduced the subject.
Lord Broughamsaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory than the explanation of his noble and learned Friend. He was accidentally absent from the country when the Bill was introduced. He had been entrusted with the Bill, and he showed it to his noble and learned Friend, who stated his objection to it. He was pleased that he had put it into his noble and learned Friend's hands. He wished to give it every support in his power, but he felt the strength of his noble and learned Friend's objection, and he being as much interested in the Bill as his noble and learned Friend, entirely wished that it should be brought forward by the Government. It was infinitely better that it should be introduced by them than by any other Member of Parliament. With respect to the Law of Debtor and Creditor, after what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend, he would not now go into that subject, but he should be ready to discuss it at the proper time; and he was only anxious to take the present opportunity to vindicate the mea-

43
sure brought in last year, and to show to their Lordships and to the country—that country to mislead which incessant means were taken — that it was not the fault of the Bill, and that no enactments of that Bill would have prevented those misdecisions, as they appeared to him, which had taken place in some quarters; the great outcry which had arisen was, with respect to the 20 l. clause; and he was charged with having upset trade by the introduction of it. Now, he was a great friend to the 20 l. clause; but it was not his clause. It was added in Committee after the examination of evidence; and instead of the Bill as brought in and supported by the Government and himself being answerable for the 20 l. clause, that was the part of the Bill which was most particularly approved of and supported by the predecessor of his noble Friend—he might name him as he was not present, Lord Cottenham; and that noble Lord's measure went ten thousand times farther than the present, for it abolished imprisonment in all cases and for all sums, whereas this Bill only prevented it under 20 l. There was, however, one great omission and defect in this Bill. It did not enable a creditor to take hold of salaries. A clerk with 200 l. a-year might contract a debt to the amount of 19 l., and the creditor could not touch his salary; and if he lived in lodgings, he could not take the furniture, because it did not belong to him. A very slight alteration would rid that clause of this defect, and it was the only defect in the Bill. The most blessed, the most happy effects had arisen from the clause, as would appear from the report of Captain Williams, the prison inspector. That report contained a most splendid panegyric upon the clause. It had acted admirably, not only in clearing the gaols of unfortunate debtors, but in no one instance diminishing credit, such as, in a wholesome state of trade, ought to be given to a debtor.
Lord Campbellsaid, the Bill had been drawn by Mr. Earle, now a Judge of the Common Pleas, at the request of Mr. More O'Ferrall, a Member of the House of Commons and at the request of Mr. More O'Ferrall, he (Lord Campbell) laid it before their Lordships. He claimed no merit from the Bill; but he must observe, that it did not belong to any Member of that House. He was, however, delighted that it was adopted by the Government.
Lord Broughamsaid, his noble and
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learned Friend must really have lost his sense of hearing—he had lost none of his other senses, but he must have lost his sense of hearing—or his imagination must have grown to such an extraordinary and monstrous size as to overpower his hearing, if he thought that he (Lord Brougham) said he had drawn the Bill. He said that it had been brought to him, and entrusted to his care.
Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente.

THE ARMY IN SCINDE.
The Lord Chancelloracquainted the House, that he had received from Major-General Sir Charles Napier, G.C.B. the following letter, in return to the Thanks of this House, communicated to him by the Lord Chancellor, in obedience to an Order of this House of the 12th of February, 1844:—
"Kurrachee, 20 th May, 1844.
"My Lord,—I have the Honour to acknowledge the Receipt of a Resolution of the House of Lords, dated the 12th February, 1844. The Contents of this Resolution I have communicated to the Troops therein mentioned; and I have the Honour to request that your Lordship will convey to the House of Lords, on behalf of the Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Private Soldiers, European and Native, as well as on my own Part, our grateful Thanks for the high Honour which their Lordships have deemed us to be worthy of receiving for our Conduct in the Scinde War.
"I have the honour to be,
My Lords,
Your Lordship's most obedient humble Servt.
"CHARLES J. NAPIER,
Major-General.
"To the Right Honourable
The Lord Chancellor, &c. &c. &c."
And the same being read, was ordered to lie on the Table, and to be entered on the Journals.
On the Motion of the Duke of Wellington Resolutions were agreed to, re-appointing Lord Shaftesbury as Chairman of Committees, and nominating the other Sessional Officers of the House.
The Earl of Shaftesburyexpressed his thanks for his re-appointment to an office which he had already filled for thirty-five years.
House adjourned.