Lord Stanleymoved the Second Reading of this Bill, which he characterized as of great importance, dealing with a subject which had been fully discussed in the other House; and which had been sent up with the almost unanimous approval and consent of its Members. The postponement of the measure would be of great practical inconvenience. The noble Lord here entered into a short statement of the principles and objects of the Bill, which, not having a retrospective effect, was designed to place the lands in counties upon a more perfect system of valuation than they were at present.
§ Lord Monteagledeclared, that he rose under a deep conviction that it would be most rash—injurious to the interests of Ireland—injuiious to the character of that House, and injurious to the character of Her Majesty's Ministers, if under circumstances it were possible for the present or any other Government to persevere in a Bill like the present. They stood in that House on the 4th day of August: he believed that there were present at that moment nine Peers representing the whole peerage of the Empire, and of those nine, he believed that only four were connected with Ireland; and yet, under those circumstances, their Lordships were called upon to pass a Bill having relation to Ireland, which if it were presented at the very commencement of the Session with respect to England, would require the utmost care and caution, and the most extended inquiry. Their Lordships would hardly believe the 1354 real importance of this question. This was a Bill to alter the whole system of local taxation in Ireland. From the liberality of Parliament, the people of Ireland had been very much relieved from direct taxation for the State. What the people there felt was local taxation; and upon the mode in which it was collected, and the system by which it was raised, their comfort, happiness, and well-being depended, infinitely more than upon many of the Bills which were brought before their Lordships. First, there was the grand jury tax, amounting to upwards of a million; and then there was the tax of the poor rate. Those were the taxes which pressed upon the occupying tenantry of the country, and yet, on the 4th day of August, without examination, without inquiry, the House was called upon to alter every existing arrangement, and to adopt a course which, in respect of such a measure, was, he apprehended, wholly without precedent. Why, the Bill they were called upon to read the second time, was actually wet from the press. It had not been delivered to Peers that morning. He really did not desire to use strong language; but if ever there had been an insult offered to a country, it would be the perseverance in this Bill on the part of the Government. There was not one of their Lordships present who did not know that the Government would not dare to press such a Bill, under such circumstances, affecting any other part of the kingdom. Upon what principle, then, was it to be pressed upon Ireland? If ever there was an insult offered to Ireland, it would be by persevering in such a Bill as the present at such a period; and he did not think Her Majesty's Government would dare to introduce such a measure with reference to any other part of the kingdom under similar circumstances. So short was the time which elapsed since it had been introduced into the House, that even his noble Friend, with all his great mental powers, had not been able to master its details, and did not seem to understand either the provisions or the principles of the Bill. Already had the country been at an expense of more than one million in surveying and valuing Ireland, and was it expedient to have all that money thrown away? They were not called upon to undo all that had been done. Any measure more calculated to impede the progress of im- 1355 provement in Ireland he did not think it possible for the worst enemies of that country to devise. One of its effects would be to prevent improvements from being made, because these would be immediately subjected to taxation, and made the object of a new valuation.
Lord Stanleyobserved, that the noble Lord seemed to misconceive the object of the Bill. Inasmuch as two valuations were now necessary in Ireland, one for the purposes of the Poor Laws, and another for grand jury assessments, this Bill enabled the valuations to be made by one officer, instead of by two separate officers.
§ Lord Monteaglecontinued to think that that valuation which had gone on so satisfactorily in the north of Ireland should be applied generally. For twenty-one years they had been legislating on this subject, and they had never thought it advisable to adopt the principle involved in the present Bill until now. It was said, indeed, that they had the consent of the Irish Members in the other House. He would just ask how many Irish Members had been present when the Bill had gone through the House of Commons? But what was the case really with respect to this Bill? It had been four times printed, and nearly as often recommitted. And yet this was the Bill which their Lordships were called upon to swallow at one gulp on the 4th of August. Now there could be no inconvenience whatever in postponing until next Session the present measure; and if he could not touch their feelings of justice, he would appeal to their compassion, not to attempt to force a Bill like that at such a period of the Session, through such a thin House. A proper system of valuation might yet be made the foundation of a franchise in Ireland, and though for-bearing to enter more deeply into that question at present, he would urge that too, as an additional argument for giving this Bill a more mature consideration.
§ The Earl of St. Germansconfessed he had heard with some surprise the speech of the noble Lord who had just sat down, and who seemed to think that this Bill was an emanation of the present Government. If the noble Lord had referred to the evidence upon which the Bill was framed, he could not have thought so. He would have seen at once that a Committee composed of Irish Members of the other House of Parliament had been ap- 1356 pointed last Session to investigate fully into this subject; that they had examined a great number of witnesses conversant with the full details of the matter; and the present Bill had been the result of the recommendation of that Committee. There had been amongst the Members of that Committee an unanimous conviction that some such measure as the present was necessary, and it had been accordingly actually agreed upon by the great body of Irish Members in the other House of Parliament, and in addition to that recommendation, it had the approval of the recent Land Commission. At the present moment there was a difference of 40 or 50 per cent. in the rate of the valuation under the Poor Law, in many of the Unions in Ireland, and it had been considered most advisable and equitable to endeavour to secure a uniform system. It was not fair to charge his noble Friend near him with endeavouring to force that Bill through a thin House; because noble Lords having an interest in Ireland did not think proper, as might be supposed their duty, as long as Parliament was sitting, to attend in their places when anything concerning that country was likely to be discussed. But such as the Bill was, it had been approved of by a Committee of Irish Members, composed of Sir Denham Norreys, Lord Jocelyn, Mr. Shaw, Mr. French, Sir H. Barron, and others; and for his part he conceived it would do much good, instead of the evil the noble Lord prognosticated of it in Ireland. Under these circumstances he hoped his noble Friend opposite would reserve his objections to the Bill until it was in Committee, when he had no doubt his noble Friend near him would be prepared to answer them.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that the first question which had occurred to him on the present occasion was, whether the House of Lords was of any use? If it was of use, then he must say that the present was a most extraordinary mode of proceeding. He objected to forcing through so important a Bill in the manner described. He did not object to it because that happened to be the 4th of August, but because they had not time to consider it before the prorogation. There was no compulsion on the Ministers to prorogue Parliament either that week or the next. In general, Parliament sat to a much later period; and it was their duty to do so as 1357 long as there was business of importance to be disposed of. It appeared that they were to be prorogued at the end of the week. The noble Lord had urged that as an argument for proceeding with the measure, while in fact it proved that the noble Lord did not consider it necessary that important Bills should undergo consideration in that House. In his opinion the noble Lord ought at once to postpone the measure. The noble Lord said, that it might not be so easy to pass it through the other House in the next Session. But that was just another reason for delaying it. Independent of these considerations, there was the fact that none of their Lordships had had time even to read the Bill. The noble Lord had said, that the Bill had been supported in the other House by a great majority of the Irish Members. According to the reports which he had seen, he believed it had been opposed by them both in its principle and in its details. He thought Government ought not to persist with the Bill in opposition to every Irish Peer present, and that further time ought to be given for fairly considering it.
Lord Stanleyhoped their Lordships would believe, that he had not brought forward the question at that period out of any disrespect to their Lordships, or with any desire that they should not have the fullest opportunity of discussing it. He was fully aware of the inconvenience of bringing forward such a measure at that period of the Session, and he was also aware that unless it met with a general concurrence of opinion in its favour, there would be little chance of carrying it. There would certainly be great inconvenience in postponing the Bill, and great expense would be involved in such a postponement. If the measure were postponed, it would only be to be again introduced in the other House next Session. He regretted that it had not met with the approval of the noble Lords connected with Ireland. Both the noble Lords opposite and the noble Earl near him, had intimated their intention to oppose the future progress of the Bill; and it would, therefore, be impossible for him to persist with the Bill during the present Session. Sensible of the immense inconvenience, the increased expense, and the great evil of postponing the measure, he, nevertheless, felt that, under the circumstances, he should not be warranted in further 1358 pressing it on their Lordships' consideration.
The Marquess of Clanricardeexpressed his acknowledgments to the noble Lord for the course he had taken.
§ Lord Monteaglesaid, that the noble Lord had acted wisely and discreetly in postponing the Bill. Early next Session the Bill might be calmly and well considered.
§ Bill accordingly withdrawn.
§ House adjourned.