Lords Sitting of 25 April 1845

Preamble
MINUTIS.] BILLS. Public.—1a. Ecclesiastical Courts Consolidation.
Private—2a. Wallasey Improvement; Bradford Gas; Molyneux's Estate.
Reported.—Fisher Lane (Greenwich)Improvement; Kingston-upon-Hull Docks.
3a. and passed: — Manchester Stipendiary Magistrate; Forth and Clyde Navigation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Bishops of Hereford, Durham, Loudon, and Cashell, the Duke of Buccleuch, Earls of Winchilsea, and Verulam, Marquesses of Breadalbane, and Lansdowne, and by Lords Monteagle, and Beresford, from Minister, Elders, and others of the Free Church of Holytown, from Montrose, and a great number of other places, against Increase of Grant to Maynooth College.—By the Earl of Clancarty, from Castle Connor, and Killglass, and numerous other places, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Education Society (Ireland).—By Bishops of Bangor, and St. David's, from Diocese of Bangor, and several other places, against Union of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By Lord Kenyon, from Clergy and others of St. Marylebone, and several other places, against Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.—By the Duke of Norfolk, and by Lords Dacre, Campbell, and Brougham, from English Roman Catholics, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers of the Presbyterian Denomination, residing in or about the Metropolis, from Belfast, and several other places, in favour of Increase of Grant to Maynooth.—From Royston, in favour of Increase of Grant to Maynooth College, but praying that the Money appropriated for that purpose may be provided out of the Surplus Revenues of the Established Church in Ireland.—By Lord Sondes, from Tradesmen of Norwich (2), for Repeal of the 57th Clause of Insolvent Debtors Act.—From Beverley, for Repeal of Provisions of Insolvent Debtors Act, relating to Power of Arrest for Debt under 20 l.—From Dundee, for Improving the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).—From Drogheda Union, against Poor Law (Ireland) Act.—By Marquess of Normanby, from Wisbeach, for Establishment of Local Courts.—By Lord Brougham, from Metropolitan Tradesmen, against the Law relating to Debtor and Creditor.—By Bishop of London, from Eaglesfield, for the Suppression of Intemperance, especi-

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ally on the Sabbath.—From Redbourne, for better Regulation of Beer Houses: and from Hawick, in favour of the Fresh Water Fishing (Scotland) Bill.—From Caistor, and several other places, for Protection to Agriculture.—From Presbytery of Orkney, for Abolishing Religious Tests in Universities (Scotland).

LAW OF INSOLVENCY.
Lord Brougham, in presenting a petition from the traders of London, complaining of the operation, more particularly of that of the 20 l. clauses, of the Act of last year, took occasion, in warmly supporting the petition, to express his conviction that it was essential Parliament should, during the present Session, and as soon as possible in it, take some steps for remedying the manifold inconvenience, the ruinous injustice, which the measure complained of had inflicted upon the whole retail trade of the country. He should prefer the remedy for these evils to proceed from the Government itself; but if no one else took up the subject, he most certainly should do so, the more especially that he thought he saw his way to an effectual remedy.
Lord Cottenhamsaid, that innumerable communications from all parts of the country, and his own observations, enabled him fully to bear out his noble and learned Friend in his statement as to the excessively injurious operation of the measure referred to upon the retail trade of this country. The Act of last year, while it abolished imprisonment for debts under 20 l., gave the unfortunate creditor no practical remedy whatever. He was exceedingly glad to hear his noble and learned Friend intimate his intention to take up the subject should the Government fail to do so.
Lord Campbellhad also received complaints from many shopkeepers of the operation of the 20 l. Clause, and he should be glad to know what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in respect to this matter. Their Lordships all had very great confidence in the ability of his noble and learned Friend; but it would be still more satisfactory if the Government would take the matter into their own hands.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he should have been extremely obliged to his noble and learned Friend, if he had given him notice of his intention to put a question upon this important subject. The measure referred to was not a Government measure; it emanated from a Committee, and in the course of the discussion upon it he suggested a clause, which was considered in Committee, and adopted. If, as his no-
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ble and learned Friend had said, the clause was productive of inconvenience, the Committee might be reappointed to reconsider it. He did not think he was acting for the Government when he suggested the clause. He would consider the subject, and on Monday next mention what course should be taken.
Lord Ashburtonreminded their Lordships of what he had before endeavoured to impress upon them, that the system of legislation upon this subject had been conducted without due consideration for the interests of the principal sufferers, the creditors. He thought their Lordships would neglect their duty if they allowed the present Session to pass over without doing something to remedy the evil.

MAYNOOTH.
The Duke of Norfolksaid that he rose to present a petition from English Roman Catholics residing in the Metropolis, Liverpool, Cheltenham, and other places, and having 7,200 signatures, in favour of the Government measure with, respect to Maynooth. He had also a similar petition to present from Leicester. In presenting this petition of the English Catholics, he might be allowed to state that, as he had not signed the petition, he should take that opportunity of thanking the Government for having brought the measure forward, and for the gallant fight they had made against those manifestations of religious excitement and bigotry which were too often shown; but which were much more fit for ages long passed than for the times in which they lived.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that as he had had the honour on former occasions of being called upon by the body from which this petition emanated to present their petitions to that House, at a time when his noble Friend, to whom this present petition was most naturally and properly entrusted, and those who professed the same religious creed, were incapacitated from sitting in Parliament, he wished to make a few observations on the subject-matter of this petition, without, however, wishing to go into the general subject. It was now about sixteen or seventeen years since the Roman Catholics of this country had all civil privileges conceded to them, and were enabled to sit in both Houses of Parliament, and were competent to hold any office in the State; and during so many years it did not appear that even the slightest shadow of an imputation had

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been cast on the conduct of any part of that body. They, from their comparative wealth and station in society, and from the advantages they enjoyed of a superior education, were well competent to form a just estimate of the measure for the improved instruction of the clergy of the Irish people; and when they came to the House and asked their Lordships to afford the best and most appropriate means for the religious education of their co-religionists in Ireland, and stated that such a measure was calculated to produce good subjects and valuable members of society, their opinion was entitled to much attention. They in their conduct afforded striking instances of the value of an improved religious education, which they now wished to have extended to the great mass of the people of Ireland, and to have combined with it all the advantages of an enlarged system of secular, and scientific, and literary education; and they showed that the most important consequences could not fail to arise from it. Having said so much with regard to the petitioners, he should, without going into the question at large, shortly make a few observations on the subject. He need hardly say that he had been anxious for many years to see a measure brought forward of the nature of that introduced by Her Majesty's Government; and as he found that in consequence of their doing so, a great deal of odium had been excited against them, he was desirous of stating that he was fully prepared to take his share in any such odium and responsibility. After all the excitement out of doors, he felt bound to say that he cordially approved of the principle as well as the details of the Bill. He regretted most deeply the religious excitement which prevailed on this subject. He had no doubt that it was perfectly conscientious; but he believed it to be most erroneous. Some allowance, no doubt, must be made to those who objected on the grounds of objecting to any State allowance for religious instruction; but he could not understand the objections which had been raised on a pecuniary ground. With respect to the funds for the purpose of this measure being taken from another source than that proposed in the Bill, he felt bound to state that he objected strongly to such a large and delicate question as the reconstruction of the Church of Ireland being mixed up with this question, or that they should legislate for that most important matter in a paragraph in a Bill for the education
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of the Roman Catholic clergy. He was satisfied that this Bill would do as much for the tranquillity and peace of the United Kingdom, as anything that had been paid for by the joint Exchequers of England and Ireland. Complaints had been made that this grant of money was for an exclusively Irish matter, and that, therefore, the funds should not come out of the revenues of the United Kingdom. Now he had that morning been looking over the Estimates, and he saw at least twenty votes which were more peculiar, and which did not in any way touch Ireland. For instance, the first vote which caught his eye was a vote of nearly twice the amount of the proposed grant to Maynooth, for the payment of stipendiary magistrates for the negroes in our West Indian Colonies, This was a consequent of the system of negro slavery which we formerly encouraged in these Colonies. Now, Ireland, before the Union, had little or nothing to do with our West Indian Colonies; they, therefore, should not be called to contribute, according to this argument, to such a Vote, as they had not been involved in the guilt of maintaining a state of slavery. He found Votes also, of many descriptions in which they were as little interested. For instance, for the purchase of pictures, for the maintenance of museums, and for the splendid building which could be viewed from the windows of that House. What, it might be said, could the fishermen of the Shannon or the peasantry of Munster have to do with these things? and yet they were called upon to pay taxes, from the produce of which these charges were defrayed. Were they, then, to be told that this measure should not pass, because it referred to only an Irish object, which was the extension of the system of education of the clergy of the Irish people? There were two objects which they should have in view in a measure of this nature. The first, was, that they should carry it into effect in a manner the most satisfactory to the mass of the Irish people; and, secondly, that they should carry it in such a manner as to put a stop to those annual manifestations of theological excitement which took place on this subject. He found that these objects were provided for in this Bill; he therefore cordially approved of it, and also all that part of it which made the grant permanent, and therefore, so far, closing the question for the future. He felt, also, that the circumstance of the funds required being taken from the re-

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venues of the United Kingdom, would speak to the feelings of the Irish people more strongly than if the funds were taken from any other source. He believed, also, notwithstanding the excitement which prevailed out of doors on this question, that the measure would, within a short time, obtain the general assent of the country, as much as the Catholic Emancipation Act now did.
House adjourned.