Lords Sitting of 7 April 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—1a. Charitable Trusts (Engand Wales).
2a. Sugar Duties.
3a. and passed:—Courts of Common Law Process; Courts of Common Law Process (Ireland); Court of Session (Scotland) Process.
Private.—1a. Sparrow's Herne Road.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Earls Falmouth and Nelson, from Wallingford, and 4 other places, against Increase of Grant to Maynooth.—By Lord Kenyon, from Bath, Church of England Lay Association, for Inquiry into the Course of Instruction adopted at Maynooth College,—by Bishops of Worcester and Durham, from Stourport, and 3 other places, for the Suppression of Intemperance.—By Bishops of St. David's, Durham, and Hereford, and by Earl Powis, from Clergy of the Deanery of Eifionydd, and several other places, against the Union of St, Asaph and Bangor, and from Nannerch, and several other places, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.—By Bishop of Worcester, from Leamington Priors, for Revison of the Rubrics, etc.—By Duke of Buccleuch, from Presbyteries of Nairn, and several other places, for Improving the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).—By Lord Campbell, from Peterhead and several other places, against any Alteration in the present System of Banking (Scotland).—From Cloughalurcher, for Encouragement to Schools in connexion with Church Education Society (Ireland).—From Limerick, for extending Sanatory Regulations in populous districts to Ireland.—From Poor Law Guardians of Derby Union, in favour of the Adoption of Sanatory Regulations.—By Lord Campbell, from Bisley, and 2 other places, for Repeal of the 57th Clause of the Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment Bill.—By Lord Cottenham, from Debtors in Lancaster Prison, for the Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.—From Hereford, for the Establishment of Local Courts.—By Lord Denman, from Inmates of Queen's Bench Prison, for Alteration of Law relating to Contempt of Court.

RAILWAYS.
Lord Broughammoved for certain Returns, to which he believed there could be no possible objection, as they were on a subject on which it was very necessary that information should be laid before their Lordships, and on which, if produced, and if the information came up to what he was given to understand would be the case, he pledged himself to ground a Motion before their Lordships. First, the number of Railway Bills passed in the last ten Sessions, distinguishing those passed in each Session. Secondly, the number of Railway Bills now pending in Parliament. Thirdly, the number of Railway Bills upon which the Board of Trade had reported favourably. Fourthly, the amount paid by the subscribers on the shares of the Railway Bills that had passed. Fifthly and lastly, the sums per cent. divided by the
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different railways already authorized by Act of Parliament on their respective shares. His reason for calling their Lordships' attention to this subject was, that he was one of those who regarded with the greatest alarm the present fever—he could call it little less than frenzy—into which the community had fallen, as well those with capital and credit, as those who were very slenderly furnished with either, but who were inspired with the love of speculation and of gambling in shares. The effect of this was likely to prove exceedingly alarming to the credit as well as the resources of this country; and when he looked back to what happened in the years 1825 and 1826, the only period in our history within his recollection which could at all be compared with the present, he recollected that the noble Earl then at the head of his Majesty's Government, the late Lord Liverpool, feeling impressed with the same alarm which he (Lord Brougham) now stated himself to feel at what was then going forward, deemed it his duty, in his place in Parliament, to warn the great body of his fellow subjects against the course to which they were, as he thought, recklessly rushing. The warning which that noble Lord then gave concluded with this notice, which he had no doubt whatever Her Majesty's present Government were equally prepared to give—
"That come what might, and happen what would, in the result of these speculations, the speculators were to look to their own resources only, and not to look to any assistance or any relief whatever from the Government which had thus given them a fair and timely warning."
When the crash happened which was then apprehended—namely, in March, 1826, Lord Liverpool, referring to what he had said in the former year, reminded the speculators of the timely warning which he had given them; and Lord Lauderdale at that time stated that there was no wonder that a pecuniary crisis, that a mercantile convulsion, should have taken place, when, the consequence of these joint-stock companies, in the year preceding there had been no less than seventeen millions sterling withdrawn from the ordinary sources of circulation, and from the ordinary commercial employment of the country, and sunk in those speculations. He (Lord Brougham) had lately seen a calculation from one of the most eminent brokers in this country, whose name he would decline mentioning, though it would give very

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great weight to his calculation, as it might be deemed invidious by parties concerned in the transactions. It was to the effect that if they were to pass the two hundred and forty odd Railway Bills now actually pending in Parliament, it was not seventeen millions merely, but in the course of two years, or at the most of three years, from the passing of the Bills, no less than 130 millions would be required for such speculations. He need not remind their Lordships that there was no Member of their Lordships' House, or of either House of Parliament, who regarded with more apprehension, or who opposed more strongly, any interference—except, perhaps, in the way of advice alone—but certainly any legal interference, as he had frequently shown their Lordships, with the employment of the capital or the labour of the community; but it was quite a different thing, it was a wholly different question, whether the Government and the Legislature were or not to give encouragement to such unbounded speculation, by granting a number of Acts of Parliament, conferring the most extraordinary powers on speculators, and without which powers none of those projects could by any possiblity be undertaken. By doing so they made themselves a party to this extravagant system of gambling; and when he mentioned to their Lordships the kind of occurrences that took place, and the treatment that to his own individual knowledge some parties had met with from these speculators, he thought their Lordships would feel no wonder that he should term them extraordinary. Before the railway business was so much multiplied in Parliament, he knew an instance of a railway that was to pass near an ancient mansion in the West of England. The engineers or managers of this railway came to the proprietor of that mansion to procure his consent to the sale of a portion of his lands, and when he asked them how much they meant to pay for fifteen acres of his ground over which the railway was to pass, they said they would not tell him until their Bill was passed into a law, but then they would give him what they might think just. The proprietor objected to be left at the mercy of the other party, beside having to permit the nuisance of having a railway within a quarter of a mile of his house. They answered that they did not care whether he consented or not; that the Railway Department of the Board of Trade had already reported in
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favour of the line, and that it would be the worse for himself if he offered them any opposition. In another instance a threat was held out to a neighbouring proprietor, that if he offered any opposition to the railway passing near his lawn, or within half a quarter of a mile of his demesne, where his family had been established since the reign of Queen Elizabeth, they would probably have to go through his kitchen garden. In such a case the proprietor had no resource. He might be told that he could go before a jury; but jurors were now in nearly all instances mixed up with these railway speculations, and in almost every case they were known to give actually less than the companies had offered in the first place. Therefore for the gentlemen concerned to tell the proprietor who opposed them that he might go to a jury, and to employ a certain other coarse expression, were nearly synonymous. He knew, besides, several instances in which the most ruinous consequences were likely to accrue to private individuals in consequence of this mania of speculation. In one case, a respectable clergyman, having collected about 5,000 l. as a provision for his family, forwarded it all to a friend in town with a peremptory instruction to buy railway shares with it, being, as he said, determined to quadruple the means of support for his family in a short time. In another case, a gentleman who had 2,000 l. sent it to the same friend, with instructions to borrow, if possible, 3,000. more for him, and then to buy railway shares for him with the whole amount. Such instances were of frequent occurrence, and it was plain the consequence must be, that in a few months many of these parties would not have money to pay the instalments which would be demanded of them. They expected to hold the shares merely for a few months or weeks, and then to sell them at a premium; but when they found that similar intentions were general, as he feared they would find to their cost, they would learn their mistake when too late. He had deemed it his duty to take the earliest opportunity of stating what his apprehensions on this subject were, and of calling the attention of Her Majesty's Government to this view of the question. He did not attach the least blame to the Board of Trade for giving their approval to so many different schemes. They never had this view which he was now taking, submitted to them; as the question on which they

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were expected to give their Report was, not whether such speculations ought to be encouraged or otherwise, but they were merely told, "There is to be a railway made through this particular district, and you are to state which of the plans for that purpose may be the most advisable." The other question belonged to the Parliament and the Government, and not to the Board of Trade. He did not, therefore, in the slightest degree complain of the Board of Trade having reported in favour of 240 plans of railways, or whatever number was now before Parliament; but what he wished to do was to call the attention of the Government to this view of the subject, that they might make up their minds whether it was expedient, or not expedient, in the general view of the matter, and on general principles, to hold out means to speculators, which means, unless afforded by Government and by the Legislature, do not exist, for indulging in the present system of gambling in shares, in what the French call "actions." Two years ago the French Government were seized with the same alarm which he now felt; and the result was that they stopped railways generally, having only allowed about a dozen or fifteen railways to be undertaken within the last year and a half, and these under strict limitation and control. He did not at all mean to lay down what course ought to be taken in existing circumstances. He only wished to give his opinion of the mischievous tendency of the mania that raged in favour of railway speculation, and which he thought was likely to lead to an alarming panic before the end of the year; the sooner the attention of Parliament, and, above all, the attention of the community was directed to it the better, so as to apply a check to the prevailing fury—the better for the commercial and monetary interests of the country. He, therefore, hoped their Lordships would not object to granting the Returns for which he moved.
The Earl of Dalhousiesaid, that he was in no position to comply with the Motion of the noble and learned Lord, except so far as he might be able to do so in connexion with the Board to which his noble and learned Friend had alluded. Every information which was within the reach of that Board should be laid on the Table of their Lordships' House. With respect to the number of railway schemes that came before the Board of Trade, the number on which
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they had reported, and probably the number of Bills that were before Parliament, there could be no difficulty; but as far as the prices of railway shares, and the amount of the dividends of existing lines were concerned, the Board of Trade could obtain the necessary information only from channels open to every one. There was no doubt, however, but that their Lordships could, if they required it, procure some of that information also. With respect to the wide and delicate question which the noble and learned Lord had brought before them, he would not presume to offer any observations to their Lordships. There could be no question whatever but that an immense amount of capital would be required for the formation of all the schemes that were now before Parliament; but he thought his noble and learned Friend's informant had rather exceeded the amount in his calculation. He believed the various lines announced to the public this year would extend to about 7,400 miles, which would require some 140,000,000 l. or 150,000,000 l. of capital for their construction; but it was impossible to suppose that Parliament would sanction any thing like that number of railway schemes, and, at all events, they might rest assured that the subject alluded to by the noble and learned Lord would undoubtedly receive the attention of Parliament. With reference to what the noble and learned Lord had said about the conduct of railway companies, and the necessity of imposing restrictions on them in the Bills before Parliament, he concurred with the noble and learned Lord in believing that many cases of very great hardship had occurred; and one instance of that nature had come under his own observation, which even surpassed those which his noble and learned Friend had mentioned. A gentleman had been solicited to become a member of a provisional Committee of a railway. He consented, and his name was entered in the advertisement list of the company. The shares were, he believed, at a premium, when it occurred to the gentleman to inquire into some of the details of the plan. He accordingly saw the section of the line, and he found that the railway would pass within forty yards of the windows of a large country house. That house was his own. On inquiring of the engineer how this could have come to pass, or whether it was possible the line could have been at all surveyed, he was told, after some hesitation, that they

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had surveyed one end of the line, and the other end of the line, and that on these two data they had founded their prospectus and subsequent proceedings. He might mention, to account in some measure for the strangeness of the proceeding, that the railway in question was in Ireland. He knew the great objections that were felt to the way of procuring compensation in particular instances; but it was provided by the General Railway Bill, that where the owner of land requires either the decision of a jury or of arbitrators in his case, he alone shall have the right of deciding which shall be selected; and that being so, a very great objection was overcome, as it was always in the power of the party requiring the arbitration to decide whether it should be made by jurors or arbitrators.
Lord Ashburtonwas not in the House to hear the early part of the speech of the noble and learned Lord, nor did he know the particular Papers for which he had moved; but he could not allow this discussion to pass without saying, that nothing more important could occupy the attention of Parliament than the present feverish state of the gambling events connected with railways. In this case, however, as in many others, it was easier to point out the difficulty than to suggest the remedy. Still it was desirable, whilst they were putting down the gambling-houses in St. James's-street and Jermyn-street, and in the purlieus of Westminster, that they should at least consider the gambling which was pervading every country town, and every family, from one end of the country to the other. They could not prevent the people from dealing in shares; but, at the same time, it did become important to consider the extent to which this gambling was carried on; and if they could not repress the gambling, they ought at least to consider its operation on the ordinary proceedings of the country, on our monetary transactions, and on the industry of the country. With regard to its influence on the ordinary business of trade, he might give one instance of its effect upon the iron manufactures of the country, and the derangement it caused to the iron trade. There had been 300 per cent. advance in the price of iron during the last eighteen months; and the consequence was, that all the ordinary commerce connected with that trade was disturbed. They found a competition arising in Belgium and other countries, owing to our manufactories being unable to carry
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on their ordinary processes, since they found the raw materials in this country too dear for them. This raised a competition in other countries against us, and opened channels of trade from which they could not afterwards be driven out; so that when iron in this country came back to its ordinary price, we should find that we had lost the markets that had hitherto depended upon us. Again, as to its effect on the monetary system of this country. His noble Friend said, that if all the railways applied for were granted, they would take about 140,000,000 l. from the ordinary monetary transactions of the country. By the mode of constructing the railways, it must take three or four years before the whole sum would be required; and though the demand would come by very small instalments, yet if the 140,000,000 l. were required to be advanced in one year, the inconvenience to the country would be extremely serious. His noble Friend said that 140,000,000 l. were proposed only, and that it was not likely so many railways would be assented to; but he was afraid that railways embracing that amount had already received the sanction of the Board of Trade; and he should like to see a return of the amount of capital of all the proposed lines that had gone before the Board. [Lord Brougham said, that was one of the Papers for which he had moved.] He wished to consider whether it were possible to make any further classification, so as to carry the operations over a greater length of time. He did not say that it was possible; but if it could be done, it would undoubtedly be a great benefit to the country. Returning to the very article of iron—what would be the results of the present state of things? There would be immense profits; very large fortunes would be made, and honestly made; and the consequence would be, that there would be furnaces set to work in every part of the country; so that the manufacture of iron would be carried to two or three times the ordinary demand of this country. By and by, when the trade ceased, the whole of the manufacturers would be thrown back—all the population engaged in this branch of manufacture would be thrown out of employment—and the cessation of this extraordinary demand would bring with it a sudden reduction of labour, of capital, and of industry, than which nothing could be more injurious to the quiet pursuits of commerce in this country. Unfortunately, this subject came

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before them in a great hurry; they had hardly time to look about them and see how matters might be best conducted. Pressed as they would be in both Houses by the importunities of the speculators, he very much apprehended that every attention would not be paid to the subject, and that the inquiries would not be conducted with that great sobriety which the importance of the subject deserved. He could not, therefore, let that occasion pass by without expressing the apprehension he felt at the confusion which must, more or less, arise to the commercial industry of the country from the transactions now taking place.
Returns ordered to be laid before the House.

SANATORY REGULATIONS.
The Marquess of Normanby, in presenting a petition from the City of Limerick, signed by the Mayor, on behalf of a meeting of the inhabitants, praying for the extension to Ireland of the contemplated sanatory measures, inquired when the proposed measure would be introduced in the other House of Parliament, and whether it would extend to the sister kingdom or not?
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, he could not state the exact period when the measure would be introduced in the other House of Parliament, but it would not be delayed for any great length of time. Ever since the Report upon the subject had been completed, a measure had been in course of preparation; but it required a great deal of research and care, from the complicated nature of the subject, involving, as it did, the examination of no less than 400 Local Acts of Parliament. He trusted, however, that at no very distant time the measure would be completed; and he hoped also that there would be ample time, after its introduction, for its full consideration by both Houses of Parliament. With regard to the intention of the Government to extend its regulations to Ireland, he begged to say that he could see no reason why the provisions of the measure should not be extended both to Scotland and Ireland; and he hoped no difficulties would occur to prevent the measure being extended to both of those countries.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory than the explanation of the noble Duke, and he now begged to present another petition on the subject from the town of Derby.

THE IRISH CONSTABULARY.
The Marquess of Normanbyrose to move for a Return of all the appointments as Head Constable in the Irish Constabulary, from the 1st of May, 1838, to the present time, distinguishing whether made upon the recommendation of the Inspector General or not, and also a similar Return of all the promotions from Head Constable to the higher grades in the same form, also distinguishing whether made upon the recommendation of the Inspector General. He had been obliged to leave town on urgent business the day after he had last called the attention of the House to this subject, or he should at once have moved for this Return, in order to correct misapprehension on the part of the noble Duke opposite, which involved, in his opinion, a very serious reflection upon him; and it was therefore in exact proportion to his respect for that noble Duke, that he felt anxiety to set himself right. He had stated before, that his complaint against the Government was that they had departed from the general understanding which, upon the appointment of Colonel M'Gregor, he (the Marquess of Normanby) had come to with him. With reference to the particular point to which he wished to draw their Lordships' attention, the noble Duke had said,—
"I say no such understanding existed; and if it did, I want to know what becomes of the noble Lord's own acts—he himself having been the person under whose auspices the Bill was brought in, being the first person to carry the Act into execution, and having carried into execution this very understanding. But, my Lords, I will go a little further. There is an understanding that all appointments and promotions of officers are to be recommended by the Inspector General. Why, the very first arrangement made after the appointment of Colonel M'Gregor was, that the office of Head Constable, that above all others desirable to the police, sub-constables, and constables, was limited, but not taken away from him—one from every three vacancies, while the other two were to be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant. What then becomes of the understanding?"
He should be ashamed to address their Lordships again upon the subject, if he, who had first made the arrangement, had not adhered to it. But what were the facts? The Constabulary Force was divided into the men known as the non-commissioned officers and the commissioned officers, the first portion being taken from the peasantry, and the latter from the gentry. He had told Colonel M'Gregor that when he could recommend any non-commis-

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sioned officer for promotion, he should be willing to make any appointment which he might suggest; but that the appointment of head constables remained as before with him the Inspector General. The noble Duke had stated upon the occasion to which he had referred, that the evidence upon the subject ran through three volumes; if, however, he had employed ny one connected with the Irish office to extract for him that portion of the evidence which related to the question at issue, he thought it might have been mastered in half an hour. The case was fully stated by his late friend, Mr. Drummond, in answer to a question put to him before a Committee of their Lordships. Mr. Drummond said,—
"Very material improvements were effected. When the Bill passed, the Lord Lieutenant introduced several military officers, with a view to improve the state of discipline, and raise the character of the corps. Having done that, he resolved that all the superior offices should in future be filled by promotion from amongst the chief constables. There was a class of subordinate officers also created, called head constables; 250 of those were appointed, all of them being selected from the constables, in compliance with a representation of Colonel Kennedy that it would be beneficial to the service to take them solely from that class. The Lord Lieutenant thus gave up at once the whole of these 250 appointments, and made a rule that the same course should be followed with regard to the selection of these officers in future. He further established various classes in each rank, by which the means of rewarding deserving men is greatly extended, and a prospect of promotion held out to officers and men, from their first entering the service, through every gradation of the force. Next to the provincial inspectors, of whom there are four, is the class of sub-inspectors. There are thirty-five of these officers, with salaries varying from 230 l. to 250 l. Next is that of the chief constables, divided into three classes, with salaries of 150 l., 130 l., and 100 l. respectively. Next in rank are the head constables, in two classes, receiving severally 70 l. and 50 l. Then come the constables again, rated at 32 l. and at 28 l., and the sub-constables at 25 l. and 23 l. It subsequently appeared to the Lord Lieutenant and Lord Morpeth, that good effects would result from leaving the promotions in the corps entirely to the Inspector General; and when Colonel M'Gregor was appointed, the whole of the promotions which had formerly been vested in and exercised by Lords Lieutenant, were confided to that officer, on the distinct understanding that he was to be responsible for selecting the most deserving and efficient men. It is now known to the whole corps that to the Inspector General alone they must look for promotion. Further, on a representation from
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Colonel M'Gregor that there were among the head constables, all of whom, it will be observed, have risen from the ranks, men capable and deserving, in his opinion, of being made chief constables, the suggestion was so far complied with that one of these appointments was soon placed at his disposal as a reward to the most deserving head constable; and Lord Normanby had it in contemplation at the time he was called away, to establish a rule that a certain proportion of the appointments of chief constables should be reserved for the promotion of the head constables. This intention having been brought before the present Lord Lieutenant, he has adopted it, and it is now a rule of the service that one in three of the chief constables to be henceforth appointed shall be promoted to that office from the rank of head constable. The effect of these several regulations may be rendered more intelligible by comparing the constabulary force with a regiment. The head constable may be considered as somewhat similar to a sergeant-major, and the chief constable to the ensign; and it was very desirable to show to the men that there is nothing to prevent their rising to the higher classes if they possess the requisite qualifications. The result of this system will I hope be, that the constabulary force will be unequalled by that of any other country. Such are the improvements introduced by Lord Normanby's Government. They depend partly on the Act of Parliament, partly on regulation; and in effecting them he voluntarily divested himself of the patronage which had been invariably exercised by the Lord Lieutenant."
He thought it was clear that the statement of his having taken away from the Inspector General two-thirds of the appointments of head constables was incorrect; that which the Inspector General did not possess before could not have been taken away from him; and that which he had not before possessed, he (the Marquess of Normanby) had given him. With reference to the case of Mr. Brownrigg he would merely say, upon that occasion, that it was a very hard one; the understanding which had been come to having been broken without any cause. He begged, however, to say that he had not had any communication of any kind with either Colonel M'Gregor or Mr. Brownrigg upon the subject. It was very improper for Lord de Grey to break through the regulation which had been made, and for the Home Secretary to assist him in doing so. He had stated before that an unfortunate feeling had been created in Ireland upon the subject, which he might now say had not been changed by the tone of the debate when he last addressed their Lordships with reference to this matter; viz., that it was not the intention of the Government to adhere to the recom-

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mendation of the Inspector General. He would now call their Lordships' attention to a case which occurred lately, into which he hoped there would be some inquiry. He believed it was the first time such an occurrence had happened for eight or ten years. At the last assizes for the county of Armagh a dinner was given by the High Sheriff and Grand Jury, at which there were many guests, and amongst them three Constabulary Officers, when the toast of "The Glorious, Pious, and Immortal Memory" was given; this toast was drunk, and cheered, by one of these Constabulary Officers, standing up in his uniform. This was distinctly at variance with the orders of Colonel Shaw Kennedy and Colonel M'Gregor, and the whole discipline of the Constabulary Force in Ireland; and yet they saw this taking place at a time when it was the general impression that it was the intention of Government to take the appointment and promotion of the Constabulary Officers out of the hands where it had hitherto beneficially rested, and transfer it to the Castle at Dublin. All this, he could not help observing, was very mischievous. Perhaps he might be told that he ought to be satisfied with the liberal tendency of the measures proposed by Her Majesty's Ministers, and look to them, therefore, for practical good Government in Ireland. When the measures which emanated in the other House of Parliament came before their Lordships, he should give them his most anxious and zealous support, come from whatever quarter they might. But he could not look to them as any security for the practical good government of Ireland; for, with the exception of the noble Lord at the head of the Government in Ireland, and the Chief Secretary (both of whom were, however, strangers to Ireland), the whole framework of the Irish Government consisted of persons who were most violent partisans of the ascendancy party in Ireland. One exception he should name, and it was that of the Solicitor General, for whom he had a great respect. The difficulty, therefore, which the noble Lords opposite would find in carrying out their Government in Ireland, was tenfold more in Ireland than it was in England. The present Under Secretary for Ireland was connected with that very part of the country where Colonel Verner and others drank the party toast to which he had alluded. The Castle adviser, Mr. Brewster, was a person notoriously connected with all the
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most violent proceedings of the ultra party in Ireland. The Attorney General was only known out of the Four Courts for his memorable, and, he might add, miserable exhibition at a factious meeting to which reference had before been made, and of which no satisfactory explanation had been given. Who was the very first Solicitor General appointed by the noble Lords opposite? Mr. Sergeant Jackson, who had at that very time upon the Table of the House of Commons a Bill for the extinction of the College of Maynooth. Unable to vote against the grant, on account of what he deemed a sort of compact, he brought in a Bill to repeal those Acts upon which this supposed compact existed, for the avowed purpose of afterwards voting against the grant—a course which he said he adopted from the highest and purest religious motives. This was the first law officer appointed by the noble Lords opposite; and he would have continued to hold the appointment if an opportunity had not occurred of placing him on the Bench of Justice. He had nothing to say against his conduct since he had been on the Bench; but it was a misfortune that the Government had placed on the Bench of Justice in Ireland, persons in whom the people had no confidence. It was in one respect lucky that he had been elevated to the judicial office, for if he had still been a law officer of the Crown, he thought there must have been a second resignation; he did not believe that the late President of the Board of Trade would have shown a solitary instance of virtue on this question; for Sergeant Jackson surely could not have gone into the House of Commons with his Bill in one pocket, and that of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government in the other. He had stated before, that he was very sorry to see a transfer of promotion in the Constabulary Force from Colonel M'Gregor to the resident officials. He had the greatest respect for the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—he believed in his thorough intention to do right, and of his very great ability to carry out that intention; but he knew more of almost every other country in the world than he did of Ireland. To be sure, he had passed most of his life in strange countries, and no country could be so "strange" to Englishmen as Ireland was; he might, therefore, be better than most Englishmen. He must depend, however, for his information upon the people by whom he was surrounded; and,

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therefore, he (the Marquess of Normanby) complained of the constitution of the Government in Ireland. He had stated many times before that the curse of the country was, that Englishmen knew so little of it. His noble Friend opposite, however, had had his attention attracted to the social condition of the country, and he must, therefore, necessarily have studied the Census Report, by which he would see that on the day on which it was taken, in June, 1841, there were only 28,000 people resident in Ireland who were not born in that country, and nearly one-half of those, it was estimated, were the children of Irish parents, who happened to be born elsewhere. Their Lordships were aware that the number of English who resided in Paris alone amounted to 60,000. He hoped that the reports which he had heard were true, namely, that an illustrious example was likely to be set on that subject this year; and if that gracious intention was carried out, he trusted their Lordships and the Members of the other House would feel that the exercise of legislative functions in other branches of the Constitution required them to know something of a country for which they were legislating, and in which there were so many important points of difference from their own. As to the good results, in the first instance, of that visit, he felt the utmost confidence. No one could speak more strongly upon that subject than himself; for he had the good fortune to witness the devotion of the Irish people, when their present Sovereign, upon her accession to the Throne, testified, within a few days after that event, her sympathy with that people. He had, therefore, no doubt, knowing that the impression of that day was as fresh in the minds of the Irish now as it was then, that, however that illustrious person might have been received in other parts of the country, she would find more joyful enthusiasm in Ireland, than she had met with any where else. But a responsibility would afterwards rest upon noble Lords opposite, as to the result of the contemplated visit. If it was to be merely a useless pageant like that which had once before taken place in that country, he felt confident it would be at variance with the intentions with which it would be undertaken; and it would also be at variance with the expectations which it would justly excite. Let noble Lords, then, maintain (as they were all, he hoped, prepared to combine in doing) the integrity of the constitution of
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the United Empire. Let them be prepared liberally, and at once, to extend to all parts of the country the equal benefits and advantages of that constitution.
Lord Stanleysaid, it was perhaps somewhat unfortunate, that at a time when Government were about to proceed with measures of the highest importance, affecting the whole State of Ireland, the noble Marquess should have thought proper to enter into various digressions affecting the policy of the Government, not at all relevant to the subject of his Motion; and it was equally a fortunate circumstance, that the noble Marquess, before he sat down, had recalled the attention of the House to the real question before it regarding the Irish Constabulary Force. Among other things, the noble Marquess had taken upon himself not only to cast reflections on the present Government, but to throw out disparaging observations upon all persons in any way connected with it; and he wished to be allowed to say a few words in vindication of the learned personages the noble Marquess had especially attacked. But first he would briefly explain the course of general policy towards Ireland, which it had been and still was the determination of Government to pursue in their administration of the affairs of Ireland. Unbiassed by the extremes of either party, they were resolved to do strict, straightforward, and impartial justice to all Her Majesty's subjects in Ireland, and not, as a Government, to lend themselves to any particular set of men for the sake of courting popularity. They would not consult or conciliate the prejudices of this side or that. But would maintain the prerogative of the Crown, and enforce the due execution of the laws towards all ranks, classes, and persuasions. Little as he doubted the enthusiasm with which the loyalty of the people would display itself should Her Majesty visit the shores of Ireland, he was still more convinced that among the thinking portion of the population—aye, and among the masses too—a forbearing and equable administration of the laws, would obtain more true respect and cordial co-operation, than if Ministers were to adopt a course which might secure them a fleeting popularity, but would not ultimately and substantially promote the welfare of Ireland. The noble Marquess had thought fit to cast some reflections upon the Lord Lieutenant.—[The Marquess of Normanby: Quite the contrary.] The noble Marquess had

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complained that the present Lord Lieutenant knew little of the state of Ireland or the people. He (Lord Stanley) knew no man who had a wider range of mind, greater discretion, or more prudence. And, with all respect for the noble Marquess, he would venture to express an opinion that, at this moment, Lord Heytesbury was as extensively and as accurately informed upon Ireland as even the noble Marquess himself. The noble Marquess had contended that all the legal appointments had been filled up by persons of extreme opinions, and of ascendancy principles. Now, with respect to the appointment of his learned Friend, Justice Jackson, he would venture to say, that though that learned Gentleman had strong religious opinions, there was no man on the Bench of greater honour and integrity. He (Lord Stanley) defied any man to point out an instance, since Justice Jackson had been upon the Bench, in which his tenets had been permitted in the slightest degree to influence his judgment. Was the present Master of the Rolls a partisan? He had been the Attorney General of the Governments of Lords Grey and Melbourne. — [The Marquess of Normanby: Mr. Blackburn was not appointed Attorney General by Lord Melbourne]. But he had been Attorney General under Lord Grey, and Lord Melbourne, on coming into office, had continued him in the office. Lord Melbourne had no objection to Mr. Blackburn, and had employed him as his Attorney General. Was the present Attorney General the Representative of violent prejudices? He was the son of Baron Smith, long the advocate of the Roman Catholic claims. The noble Marquess seemed to think that every man who did not go the length of his political notions must be a partisan and a bigot. Then, as to the Solicitor General—[The Marquess of Normanby: I excepted him]. The noble Marquess had been pleased to except the Solicitor General. Was Sergeant liowley—was Mr. Coppinger, a man of extreme opinions? He was not prepared for the digressive remarks into which the noble Marquess had chosen to enter; but these names occurred to his memory, and he might multipy them by many others; he pointed them out to show that the Government of Ireland was not conducted on party principles; and least of all, that it was influenced by religious bigotry. He thought that the noble Marquess might have spared some of his imputations upon Ministers, especially at a moment when,
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fully estimating the risk they ran of loss of power and support, the Government were persevering, from a sense of what was due to justice, in introducing measures of extreme liberality, as some considered them, with regard to the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He neither denied nor undervalued that risk; but Ministers had counted the cost, and had taken their course; they had determined upon it from a sense of justice, and that, forsooth, was the moment chosen by the noble Marquess for his accusations. Ministers risked private friendships and political supporters, and yet the noble Marquess thought it the best moment to charge them with bigotry. Adverting to the Motion, he (Lord Stanley) did not mean to object to a word of it, if the noble Marquess would consent to carry it back to May, 1836, when the Act regulating the Constabulary Force in Ireland came into operation. The noble Marquess said, that when he was Lord Lieutenant he agreed to leave the appointments in the hands of the Inspector General; and he had taken the occasion of the appointment of Major Priestley, to ask whether it was intended to depart from the usual practice of leaving the higher appointments in the Constabulary to the Inspector General? He (Lord Stanley) saw no reason why the present Government should be bound to follow any regulations laid down by the noble Marquess. He must decline the admission of any such obligation—more especially as he felt, with all his respect for the noble Marquess, that there was no part of his career which he should feel less bound to follow than the course pursued by him as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It had happened, in fact, that the noble Lord did not feel himself bound to practise his own regulations. Not only had he not left the higher appointments to the Inspector General on any real or supposed understanding, but be had distinctly and repeatedly repudiated such a course from the year 1836 to the year 1838; for in 1838 he lost the services of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, because he (the Marquess of Normanby) would not concede what he now conceived to be the just claims of the Inspector General. In 1836 the Constabulary Force had been increased in Ireland from 5,000 to about 8,000 men; and it was at that time proposed to appoint an Inspector General, four Deputy Inspectors General, forty-two county inspectors, forty-two paymasters, thirty-five sub-inspectors, besides a number of chief con-

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stables of the first and second class. This enormous amount of patronage, claimed by the Ministers of that day, had been much cut down in the House of Lords. The forty-two county inspectors were reduced to four, and the forty-two paymasters to eighteen. The main object of the Bill was stated to be to transfer the power of appointment from the local magistracy to the Lord Lieutenant, that the Lord Lieutenant might exercise it through the Inspector General. But how was that practically worked out? Immediately on the Bill taking effect there were 150 offices to be filled up, ranging from 500 l. a year downwards. Some of these were officers not immediately connected with the police. Now all knew well the statement of Colonel Shaw Kennedy on the subject. The noble Viscount, then Secretary for Ireland, when he introduced this Bill, stated that he did so with the entire concurrence of Colonel Shaw Kennedy; and the Bill principally passed on the assurance of Colonel Shaw Kennedy's high character. Colonel Shaw Kennedy stated that at that time there were eighteen appointments to the situation of paymaster of the police vacant. To these he recommended six chief constables of the Constabulary Force. There were sixty or seventy vacancies to the appointment of stipendiary magistrates, and to these he recommended seven sub-inspectors. But not one of the persons recommended by Colonel Shaw Kennedy was appointed. But although the officers of the force did not receive those appointments they were given to military officers. Of the seven sub-inspectors recommended by Colonel Shaw Kennedy to the situation of stipendiary magistrates, not one was appointed, and, on the contrary, junior officers were put over their heads. In one case out of the seven a junior sub-inspector was placed over the back of one of the oldest officers in the force. The appointments thus made, Colonel Shaw Kennedy went on to state, "placed him in one of two lights before the force—either that he was not willing to have justice done them, or that he was a mere cypher." That was the charge which he made, that the noble Marquess had refused to attend to the recommendations thus made to him. [The Duke of Wellington: Out of the persons recommended, only two were appointed?] Only two of the officers recommended by Colonel Shaw Kennedy were promoted. Now, he would refer to the explanation given on the 23rd of March, 1838, by Viscount Morpeth,
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when he was questioned on this subject after Colonel Shaw Kennedy resigned his situation in consequence of the noble Marquess having refused to attend to his recommendations. Lord Morpeth stated on that occasion that all the appointments which had been made since the patronage was withdrawn from the local magistrates, had been made by the Inspector General. "But with respect to those appointments which had been previously in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant, of course his Excellency retained those appointments in his own gift; nor was it ever understood or admitted that his Excellency was to divest himself of those appointments." But the noble Marquess had stated that a different arrangement had been entered into with Colonel M'Gregor. This arrangement was not actually carried out at the time when the noble Marquess was recalled from the Government of Ireland. It seemed that in 1838, very shortly before he quitted Ireland, a new light seemed suddenly to have broken in upon the noble Marquess, and then it was that he had made up his mind, for the first time, to give the appointments on the recommendations of the Inspector General. When recalled from Ireland, that had been the determination of the noble Marquess—but not till then; and their Lordships would bear in mind the condition of the Government at that time. Thus the noble Marquess's new light was directly opposed to his constaut practice all the time he was Lord Lieutenant; and he (Lord Stanley) could not help thinking that the change was a sort of charitable bequest made by a repentant and expiring testator in extremis to disappoint the heir at law. He (Lord Stanley) was willing to assent to give the Inspector General full control over the appointment of the inferior officers. He was willing that the Inspector General should be consulted with respect to the appointment of every officer in the force. He thought that whenever an officer was introduced into the force as an original appointment, it was right that the Inspector General should be consulted. But on matters of such importance as the appointment of Sub-Inspectors General, or of the appointment of the four or five principal officers, he thought it absolutely necessary that, with respect to those appointments, the Lord Lieutenant should be perfectly unfettered in his choice. Indeed, upon that point he was not aware that any complaint had been made by the Inspector General. He was sure that it

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was the anxious desire of the Lord Lieutenant to promote the efficiency of the force, and to give all due weight and authority to the recommendations of the Inspector General; but with respect to the higher offices, he thought that the Lord Lieutenant had a right to maintain the exercise of his own judgment in rewarding public services by higher appointments in the constabulary force. The noble Marquess had alluded to the case of Major Priestley. Now, with respect to Major Priestley, that officer obtained his appointment in the public service on account of his public services, and not through the exercise of any private friendship. He had served in the army for fifteen years, and when he was appointed to the Constabulary Force he was appointed one of the four provincial inspectors, the number of which was afterwards reduced to two. He was then obliged to accept the office of stipendiary magistrate. He continued to discharge the duties of stipendiary magistrate in the province of Connaught until he was sent to the county of Tipperary, at a period of particular difficulty and disturbance. Major Priestley was at that time selected by Earl De Grey to go down to Tipperary as superintendent resident magistrate for three years and a half. Major Priestley continued to discharge those duties, not only without blame or censure, but with the approbation of every one who had observed his public conduct. When that appointment ceased Earl De Grey stated that he would be glad of an opportunity to mark his sense of Major Priestley's merit, and the situation; of Deputy Inspector General becoming vacant, Major Priestley was accordingly appointed. Why, then, was this case to be made an exceptional one? It was the duty of the Lord Lieutenant to reward faithful, able, and zealous services, and he had done so. He was not to be passed Over because the noble Marquess, near the close of his official existence, had thought fit to enter into some understanding about the sacrifice of his patronage, at a moment when he was on the point of having none to bestow. He had said thus much in consequence of the attack upon Ministers, who were not desirous of exercising any power beyond what the noble Marquess had himself claimed. He had no objection to grant those returns; but he would call upon the noble Marquess to enlarge his Motion, so as to include all appointments since 1836. He would wish the Motion to embrace all appointments,
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those of head constable included, from the 1st of May, 1836. Upon these conditions, he would have no objection to consent to the production of the Returns moved for by the noble Marquess.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that nothing had been further from his intention than to misrepresent the noble Marquess, when he spoke on a former occasion. He had done everything in his power to avoid entering into the discussion at all, as he expected to be in a situation which would have rendered it impossible for him to have taken part in it. He had arranged, therefore, that it should be left to his noble Friend the Secretary of State and the President of the Council. When he found that he could not avoid it, it was only two or three days before that debate was to take place, and when the noble Marquess declared that he was resolved to bring it forward. He (the Duke of Wellington) had then made every effort duly to inform himself, by reading all the documents relating to the subject; but still he felt that he was not in a situation to do it justice. He could only regret that the noble Marquess would not postpone the discussion until his noble Friend the Secretary of State could take part in it; and what he (the Duke of Wellington) had said, was founded upon the documents to which he had referred. He repeated, that he had not the slightest intention to misrepresent the noble Marquess. What he had contended for was, that under the Act of Parliament the Lord Lieutenant had certain rights and duties, and he was to estimate the one and the other by the terms of the Statute, and not by any arrangement into which his predecessors might have entered. Most particularly it was to be remembered that the practice of that predecessor had been conformable to the Statute, and not to the arrangement. This was what he had urged on the former occasion; and he had added that no complaint was made that Major Priestley was unfit for the office; on the contrary, the noble Marquess had admitted that he had no ground of complaint against Major Priestley. It was the duty, then, of the Lord Lieutenant to make that appointment; and he (the Duke of Wellington), in justification of it, had quoted the course the noble Marquess had himself pursued all the time he was in office. His impression was, that after the noble Marquess had informed Major M'Gregor that he should have the nomination of the chief

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constables, he had deprived him of two-thirds of those appointments by allowing him only to name one in three: even in the case of the one, the selection had not always been made by the Inspector General: at times the recommendation of the Lord Lieutenant prevailed over that of the Inspector General. In this statement he was borne out by the evidence before the Committee. It was quite true that Colonel Shaw Kennedy had been mistaken in his construction of the Act, when he supposed that he was to have the selection of all the officers there named, including the magistrates. This could never have been intended; but he thought it was clearly indicated that the paymasters were to be appointed on the recommendation of the Inspector General. These also were taken away from Colonel Shaw Kennedy; and when the noble Marquess was in Ireland, two-thirds of the minor appointments were also claimed by the Lord Lieutenant. If he had misrepresented the noble Marquess, he was sorry for it; but it had been forced upon him, and nobody could have taken more pains than he did not to intermeddle with the discussion.
The Earl of St. Germansrose merely to state that the regulations which the present Government found to exist when they entered office had not been in any case departed from. The appointment of the head constable had invariably been made on the recommendation of the Inspector General.
The Marquess of Normanbyreplied, with respect to the enlargement of the terms of his Motion, as suggested by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), he had not the slightest objection. He should be glad to have everything that had been done by him while governing Ireland laid before the public; and he believed the result would be to prove that the establishment of the Constabulary Force, and every arrangement connected with it, gave satisfaction in every part of Ireland, throughout a most difficult period. With respect to Mr. Brownrigg, he considered that gentleman to have been a very ill-used man; and whatever might be the claims of Major Priestley, he did not think there was any justifiable ground for substituting that gentleman for Mr. Brownrigg. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had accused him of having made a wanton attack on Her Majesty's Government in regard to Ireland, at a time when they were bringing forward measures for the benefit of that
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country. He had not made any such attack; on the contrary, he distinctly stated that he did approve of those measures of the Government, and that he would give them his warm and zealous support, without questioning the motives on which they were brought forward. Nay, he would tell the noble Lord more—that the support which he was prepared to give Her Majesty's Government in their policy towards Ireland was founded, not only on the measures which they had brought in, but still more, perhaps, on the measures which they had not brought in. Their Lordships had in former times heard of a certain Registration Bill. What had become of it? At one period it was considered to be a measure of such pressing necessity, that it was urged upon the House of Commons by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) then sitting on the Opposition Benches, with so earnest an appeal that not a day was to be lost in the consideration of it. What had become of that urgency? The noble Lord had had a seat in the Cabinet for the last four years, and yet had he once dared to bring forward an Irish Registration Bill? He would repeat, therefore, that he gave his support to the Government, not only on account of the measures which they did bring in, but also on account of the measures which they had abandoned. With respect to what he had said concerning the appointment of Mr. Baron Jackson, he had been misunderstood by the noble Lord. What he stated was, that he considered the previous political conduct of Mr. Sergeant Jackson had been of such extreme violence that it was not likely he would enjoy that confidence, on the part of the Irish people, which a criminal judge ought to enjoy. With regard to the appointment of Mr. Sergeant Howley, he was sorry that he had been obliged by the noble Lord to allude to it; he could only say, that as far as being a conscientious and upright criminal judge in a small court in the county of Tipperary, that learned Gentleman might be without reproach, and perfectly competent to discharge his duty; but when the nature of the office of Sergeant in Ireland was considered, he could not help thinking that in the selection of Mr. Howley a worse appointment, professionally speaking, was never made. The office of Sergeant, it should be recollected, gave the position of precedence or pre-audience to the person holding it above all the rest of the profession. Was it not absurd to confer this on a gentleman who had no practice, though he

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certainly had been popular and painstaking as the Assistant Barrister of Tipperary? The Government passed over the late Mr. West, who was a distinguished supporter of theirs, because they imagined some professional superiority over him in Mr. Warren. How was this to be reconciled with the appointment of Mr. Howley, unless it were that the Government might be able to boast of having appointed a Roman Catholic to office? The noble Lord, in speaking of the present Attorney General for Ireland, Mr. Smith, said that he believed him to be a very fair person, and that he knew no reason why his appointment should be objected to, for he was the son of the late Baron Smith. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had lived a long time in the political world, and had seen some strange changes, and he must know that it did not always follow that the political principles of the father were adopted and acted upon by the son. But he (the Marquess of Normanby) was not the only party who objected to the appointment of Mr. Smith as the Attorney General for Ireland; the objection was strongly felt all over that country. It was universally known that Mr. Smith did, at a public meeting in the city of Dublin, called together to oppose the late Government, state that circumstances had come to his knowledge that would make him hesitate to believe that a Roman Catholic had any regard for the sanctity of an oath. A person making such a statement ought never to have been placed in the situation of Attorney General. He did not think that the charge he had made against the Government had been answered in any way whatever by the noble Lord. All these appointments of which he complained were appointments of the strongest party character. It had, indeed, been stated that the expression attributed to Mr. Smith had never been used by him, and that this passage was not to be found in a corrected edition of his speech. But all the time that he was in Ireland, he never heard the fact disputed, or that there was any doubt that these words were used by Mr. Smith. At the public meeting in the city of Dublin where they were believed to have been spoken, there were reporters present representing the press of all parties, and in all the papers the words were reported as having been uttered by Mr. Smith. He thought the appointment of Mr. Greene as the Solicitor General for Ireland was a respectable appointment; but with reference to all the other appointments, however respectable as private in-
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dividuals the persons might be, he considered them to give such a character to the governing power exercised at the Castle of Dublin as required all the energy of the noble Lord at the head of the Government there to struggle against it. The noble Lord had said that there was no part of his (the Marquess of Normanby's) public life on which he should be less disposed to congratulate him (the Marquess of Normanby) than that of his Administration of the Government of Ireland—
Lord Stanley: I beg the noble Marquess's pardon. What I said was, that there was no part of the noble Marquess's public life which I should so little feel it our duty to imitate as his Administration of the affairs of Ireland.
The Marquess of Normanby, knowing what means the noble Lord had on former occasions pursued himself in Ireland, and the impression they had left behind, should have been indeed surprised if he had found the noble Lord following his (the Marquess of Normanby's) example. The observations of the noble Lord did not, therefore, touch him. As for the implied want of the noble Lord's approbation, he must console himself with the kindly recollections of the Irish people.
The Duke of Wellingtonwished to explain. It was supposed in the former discussion on this subject that he had misunderstood the difference between the head constable and the chief constable; but he never did make that mistake. He knew very well what were the gradations, from the sub-constable, the constable, the head constable, and the chief constable. The latter only held the rank of a commissioned officer. Sub-Inspectors he knew nothing of.
The Marquess of Normanbywished the noble Duke to state distinctly what were the appointments he (the Marquess of Normanby) was supposed to have taken away from the Inspector General.
The Duke of Wellingtonwould repeat what it was he did say. He said, that the noble Marquess, by having given an appointment to a person over the chief constable, the Inspector General was deprived of two-thirds of these appointments, he having been previously told that he was to have all these appointments.
The Marquess of Normanby: But that was not the fact. The noble Duke misunderstood the case. The Inspector General was never told he was to have any of these appointments. The first, and indeed the only thing he was told was, that

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one-third of the appointments should in future be given to him for the purposes of promotion from the ranks. If noble Lords would look to the evidence, they would find that this was the case.
The Earl of St. Germanssaid, although it was contrary to the rules of their Lordships' House for any noble Lord to speak twice in the course of the same debate, still he trusted their Lordships would permit him to refer to one part of the noble Marquess's speech, in which he had alluded to a right hon. Friend of his, who was not present to vindicate himself against a charge which the noble Marquess had thought fit to repeat to-night. He (the Earl of St. Germans) did think that the noble Marquess was hardly justified in the remarks he had made; the charge had been brought against the right hon. Gentleman in the House of Commons, and he distinctly denied and rebutted that charge, and read an accurate report of the speech which he did deliver on the occasion alluded to. The charge was founded on the report of a speech said to have been made by the right hon. Gentleman at a meeting in the city of Dublin, in which he imputed to the Roman Catholics that they were not to be believed on their oaths. The right hon. Gentleman, two days after the meeting, published a corrected report of his speech, in which no such words were used; and he distinctly in the House of Commons denied having used such words. The noble Marquess, knowing all this, was scarcely justified in repeating the charge in the necessary absence of the right hon. Gentleman.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman had gone to the extent of giving a distinct denial to the charge, of course he (the Marquess of Normanby) was bound to accept that denial. But he (the Marquess of Normanby) happened to be present when the right hon. Gentleman made his speech in the House of Commons in answer to the charge of having used the words imputed to him; and that speech was not considered by any person at the time, certainly not by him (the Marquess of Normanby), to amount to a denial; but what he said was, that whatever words were used by him had been published in a corrected form, and he offered to read his speech to the House, which was certainly a very formidable proposal, and not likely to be accepted. But it was well known that it very often happened that what a man published and what he spoke were two very different
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things. He (the Marquess of Normanby) did not intend to say that the right hon. Gentleman meant to adhere to the expression; but certainly an impression had gone forth from one end of Ireland to the other that such words had been used by him.
Motion as amended agreed to.
House adjourned.