Lords Sitting of 30 May 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1a. Gold and Silver Wares. 2a. Customs; West India Relief; Edinburgh Agreement; Education of the Poor, etc.
Private. — 1a. Ladbroke's Estate; Ramsden's Estate; W. H. B. Jordan Wilson's Estate; Cm Celyn and Blaina Iron Company; Sheffield United Gas; Manchester Police; Manchester Royal Infirmary; South Eastern Railway: Swansea Harbour; Mackenzie's (Seaforth) Estate.
2a. Brighton and Chichester Railway; Chester and Holy-head Railway.
3a. and passed:—Blackburn and Preston Railway; Eastern Counties Railway (Brandon and Peterborough Extension); Northern and Eastern Railway (Newport Deviations); Maryport and Carlisle Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Uffingham, against Creditors and Debtors Bill. — By Lord Kenyon, from St. Marylebone, Norfolk, and Reigate, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor.—From Bandon, and 11 other places, for Legalizing Marriages solemnized by Presbyterian and Dissenting Ministers in Ireland. — From the County of Norfolk, for Alteration of the Game Laws. — From Dundee, against the Dissenters Chapels Bill.

CIRCUITS OF THE JUDGES.
Lord Brougham, in moving for Returns relative to the number of Criminal trials which took place in the different circuits of England and Wales for the last two circuits, specifying the number tried at each place, expressed a hope that some-
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thing would be done so as to make the Circuits more equal than they were at present.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he understood the object of his noble and learned Friend's Motion to be to lay a foundation for an inquiry into the subject. It was impossible to make any change in the Circuits of the ensuing summer, but before the Spring Assizes of next year an alteration might be effected.
Lord Broughamwas of opinion that the Northern Circuit might be divided into two with great advantage, and have two Judges to go on each of them.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that his attention had been called to the subject, and that he had communicated with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, but there were great difficulties in the way of making any alteration in the next Summer Circuits.
The Duke of Richmondtrusted, that if any alteration were made, the magistracy of the country would be made acquainted with it in due time, so that they might not commit prisoners for trial to the Quarter

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Sessions, if there were a Court of Oyer and Terminer by which persons committed for criminal offences might be tried at an earlier period. This evil had actually occurred at the Winter Assizes for the county of Suffolk.
Lord Broughamexpressed a hope that the anomaly with regard to the different periods which intervened between the committal and the trial that at present existed in the country and in the metropolis would be done away with. A prisoner committed to take his trial at the Central Criminal Court was seldom in prison for more than sixteen or eighteen days, whereas in Yorkshire, in Lincolnshire, in Somersetshire, in Cornwall, and other counties where there was not a third Circuit in the year, when a prisoner was sent to be tried by the Judges he might be in prison five or six months. At the Central Criminal Court prisoners were tried for offences committed in Southwark, which was in Surrey, in parts of Kent, Essex, and Middlesex, so that those counties in that respect had an advantage over the more distant counties. Of the fifty-one counties in England and Wales (Middlesex was not of course included), sixteen only had a third Circuit. Lincolnshire, which was the second county in size, had no Winter Circuit; neither had Sussex, nor Northampton, nor Somerset, nor Cornwall, all large counties. He trusted that the subject would be taken into the consideration of the Government, and that the anomaly would not be allowed to remain.
Lord Campbellsaid that there might be a better equalisation of time between the Summer and the Spring Circuits, between the Summer and the Spring Circuits there was an interval of three or four months only, whilst between the Summer and the Winter Circuit the difference was eight or nine months. If the Summer Circuit were deferred until August or September, the division between the Circuits would not be so unequal. He was aware that by that arrangement the sporting season would be interfered with, as well as trips to France, or Germany, or Italy, but he was satisfied that the Bar would make the sacrifice of time which would be required of them.
Lord Broughamsaid, that the Judges, as well as the Bar, would readily make the sacrifice of their time for any improvement that might be brought forward. He thought that public advantages would be
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obtained by occasionally changing the venue in criminal cases, transferring them for trial to an adjoining county.
Motion agreed to.

EDUCATION OF THE POOR.
Lord Wharncliffe, in moving the second reading of the Education of the Poor Bill, said that there were at present a great number of schools with small endowments for the schoolmaster alone, but not available for building or other purposes; no grant in aid could be made by the Committee of Privy Council from the Parliamentary fund, except on certain conditions, and they found the greatest possible difficulty in obtaining those conditions from the trustees of endowed schools. This Bill was intended, therefore, to remedy the difficulty complained of.
Lord Cottenhamthought the object of the Bill might be accomplished with less extensive powers than this Bill proposed to give, and the surplus powers might be abused. It would be difficult to modify existing trusts for the purposes of this Bill, without opening the door for further modifications, or even total alterations of the trusts. The third Clause, he observed, was intended to remove a doubt respecting the former Act: but for his part he saw-no such doubt. He also thought that by this measure the principle of the Mortmain Act would be broken in upon.
Lord Broughamagreed with his noble and learned Friend that the Mortmain Act should not be broken in upon lightly; but at the same time there was no danger of fanaticism in school-building or education of the poor rising a very great height.
The Lord Chancellornotified that it was his intention, in the course of a short period to introduce a Bill for removing the misapplication of charitable funds for educational purposes.
Lord Broughamsaid, he was glad to hear this announcement by the noble and learned Lord. It was a measure that was very necessary.
Bill read a second time.
House adjourned.