The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that he wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a subject which had only come under his notice to day. He should have wished to have given Her Majesty's Government notice of his intention to do so, but for the consideration that, as the Easter recess was so near, they would not probably have time to communicate with Dublin and receive an answer on the subject before their Lordships adjourned. Their Lordships would recollect that, about a month ago, he moved for a list of the appointments which had been made to the Stipendiary Magistracy of Ireland from the year 1841 down to the present time. His object in moving for this return was, that he had reason to apprehend that a most objectionable appointment had been made, or was about to be made, to the Stipendiary Magistracy, and he intended, should it turn out that such was the case, to call their Lordships' attention to the subject. On receiving the Return, however, the name he apprehended to have found in it was not there and upon see- 1602 ing this he was satisfied the appointment had not been made. In the course of the present day, however, he understood that the appointment in question had actually been made, and had been announced in the Dublin Gazette two days before the return to his (the Marquess of Norman by's) Motion had been made. He would not at present comment further upon this circumstance than to observe that he always understood that it was the practice of Government, when a Return was ordered by either House of Parliament, to make it out with the fullest and latest information which the subject admitted of. Her Majesty's Government would, perhaps, institute some inquiry upon the cause of this omission in the present case; and he (the Marquess of Normanby) would now proceed to make a few observations upon the appointment of which he had occasion to complain—namely, that of Mr. O'Brien. There years ago as an instance of his strong party feeling on this subject, he had refused to give the health of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the time being at a public dinner, on account of that Nobleman having declared that he could not apply any of the patronage of the Government in favour of any declared Repealer. But not only did Mr. O'Brien refuse to give the health of the Lord Lieutenant, and upon this ground, but he had written a letter to the Gentleman who was Member for the county where it tool place, which he should beg to read to their Lordships. The noble Marquess then read the following letter.
Farfield. Oct. 20th, 1840.My dear Dillon Browne—The friends of Repeal in this great county, anxious at this present time to express, in the teeth of Lord Ebrington's Bill of pains and penalties, their firm adhesion to that now devoted question, have resolved to pay to you a tribute of respect as one to whose active services and chivalrous support Repeal is so much and deeply indebted, beg through me that you will name a day to meet your friends at a public dinner, to be given in Ballinasloe.There is no better time than the present for the people and their leaders, now that Lord Ebrington has given to the Repeal Question the hallowed tinge of persecution and all the attractive splendour of romance. His Excellency would seem to seek to uphold the Union by the same means that it was carried—the hopes of reward, the threats of persecution. He little knew the human heart, and less the Irish one, who supposed that from the 1603 hallowed watching we now hold over the tomb of our country we are to be routed by a Castle Proclamation.We will, by legal and peaceable means, show his Excellency that to dictate to a nation is but the golden lot of the few and thinly scattered. We flake him a present of his prophecy as to the impracticability of Repeal—we were educated in the school of Richelieu, who acknowledged no such word as fail.Your friend and warm admirer, O'Connell, keeping his eye upon the falling sands of the hour-glass, is terribly in earnest, and performing miracles under the pressure of advancing years. In truth, my dear friend 'Repeal of the Union' has become the national mandate of a people who, in the midst of ruin, have not time or temper to say more.I fear, my dear Dillon Browne, I have become prolix upon the subject, which it has been my happy lot often to have heard you dilate upon in private, with that eloquence which now has become the intellectual property of the many. Forgetting my own unworthiness, I rejoice that I am selected as the instrument through whom the Repealers of this county convey their high admiration of your patriotism and talent, and remain, my dear Dillon Browne, unalterably yours,THOMAS O'BRIEN.Robert Dillon Browne, Esq., M.P., Mayo.[The perusal of this letter was greeted with repeated bursts of laughter.] Now, when it was recollected that this was the man who had been put over the heads of many deserving competitors, who had been long waiting for appointment to the magistracy upon the promises of Her Majesty's Government, the termination, "yours unalterably," was certainly a little remarkable. With respect to the change which had occurred in this person's politics since this epistle was written, he was informed that it was owing to Mr. O'Brien's having wanted to go, in the advocacy of his repeal notions, beyond the line of con-duet which was considered prudent by others of his party. It was then Mr. O'Brien seceded from them and became their bitter opponent. It was for their Lordships to consider whether the appointment of such a person to the magistracy, to preside over the disturbed districts of Ireland, was not very discreditable to those who made it. He hoped Her Majesty's Government, when they became aware how improper an appointment it was, would lose no time in correcting it. But at the same time he could not help observing that they had been warned, or at least might have beets warned if they had chosen, at 1604 the time they were making this appointment of the impropriety of it, the matter having been noised about and discussed in all the newspapers. As it was, the circumstance of which he now complained of was gazetted two days before this Return was made, it was not included in it. He should therefore conclude by moving that the Return be completed up to the present day.
§ Lord Wharncliffesaid, that if the noble Marquess had confined himself to a complaint of the incompleteness of the Return which had been made in obedience to an order of this House, undoubtedly he (Lord Wharncliffe) would have had nothing to complain of in the course he had taken. But the noble Marquess had thought proper, also, to go into the whole merits of this appointment, and the character of the Gentleman in whose favour it had been made, and this without the slightest notice to Her Majesty's Government of his intention. He certainly thought it would have been more courteous, and more in accordance with the usual proceedings in their Lordships' House, if the noble Marquess had given some intimation of the course he intended to take, in order that Her Majesty's Government might have prepared themselves with all the information which the subject afforded. As it was, however, he (Lord Wharncliffe) would take care to inquire how it had happened that the name of Mr. O'Brien had not been included in this Return, and also as to the circumstances under which this appointment had been made.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, he did not think that his noble Friend was open to any charge of unfairly attacking Her Majesty's Government on the present occasion. On the contrary, the attack was against the clerk for having omitted the name of Mr. O'Brien; and if Her Majesty's Government thought that this was a matter which could be allowed to remain where it was they were very much mistaken. He had intended himself, having heard of the appointment some days ago, to have brought forward a substantive Motion upon this subject, giving due notice to Her Majesty's Government of his intention; and all he could say was, that if this appointment were practically sustained, he should still drill it his duty to do so. There was no One subject so importantly affecting the interests of Ireland as that of the appointment of the Magistracy, and the 1605 appointment of this Gentleman as a stipendiary magistrate, passing over, as was clone here, persons well qualified, of undoubted respectability, who had invariably conducted themselves in the most exemplary manner, was not likely to give satisfaction to the people, but on the contrary, it was calculated to bring into disrespect the justice which was administered by those functionaries. The charge which his noble Friend had brought was one which could not be contradicted; and when Her Majesty's Government said that they did not know anything about the matter, it was only a repetition of the old excuse, that they did not read the newspapers. There Was no newspaper in Ireland in which this appointment had not been noticed: and there was not One, not even of those which had printed Mr. O'Brien's letters against Mr. O'Connell, in return for which it was understood that this appointment had been given, that had ventured to say one word in favour of it.
§ The Duke of WellingtonMy Lords, I must say that this debate is irregular, in consequence of the want of a notice on the part of the noble Marquess of his intention. If the noble Marquess had given notice respecting the inaccuracy of the Return which is now upon your Lordships' Table, inquiries should have been made into the reason of the omission of the name of the Gentleman among the list of Stipendiary Magistrates, who had been appointed within the period of' the noble Marquess's Motion. Then followed another noble Marquess with his observation condemning the appointment, and mentioning that it had been severely commented upon in the Irish newspapers. Now, as regards that part of the speech of the noble Marquess, I must plead guilty to the charge, for I have not read one of the newspapers, and I have never heard before this evening of the name of Mr. O'Brien. I must say, that I am sorry that the name of the Gentleman who received the appointment complained of was not inserted in the list, seeing that his name had appeared in the Dublin Gazette two days before the list was Made out. I beg to repeat, that if the noble Marquess had given notice of his intention, inquiries should have been made info the cause of the name being omitted in the list which has been furnished.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had always 1606 thus far concurred with this Gentleman—of whose existence until now he had been utterly ignorant—upon the subject of persecution,—without using the highly figurative eloquence about the "hallowed tinge" attending it; he had always objected to proscribing men for political opinions, and had disapproved of Lord Ebrington's declaration of his determination not to extend patronage to Repealers, because he knew the effect would be favourable to the cause; looking on Repeal of course as the greatest of all absurdities—as all men of sense in either country knew it to be; but he thought his noble Friends of the Government had taken a far better course, and were dealing with Repeaters in a more "hallowed way" in promoting them instead of proscribing them; and he thought the process (so pleasing) would have perhaps a pretty effect on the "repealing minds of Ireland," to whom it. would unquestionably appear a fat more "hallowed" way of doing the thing, plating Repealers as it did in a much more comfortable predicament than that of persecution. Nor was this course without precedent, for he remembered that a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shell), who sometimes used figurative language of a species similar to that of this Gentleman (though of a higher kind, perhaps), had been an ardent Repealer, and was by the late Government "hallowed" into the Vice Presidency of the Board of Trade, and what was exceedingly observable was, dolt the right hon. Gentleman had never uttered a syllable about Repeal ever since. A far more comfortable, gracious, and pleasing triode this of dealing with Repealers than persecuting them—a process, which no doubt, this Mr. Dennis—what's his name?—preferred, just as the right hon. Gentleman did. What could be the objection to his appointment, if he had been converted from his Repeal opinions? The Gentleman had given up his "unalterable attachment" for substantial reasons, arid others would be equally happy to do so, if they had reasons equally strong. God knows, however, that everything connected with the administration of justice was a very serious matter. But he really thought that anything connected with it should be discussed in a solemn, serious manner. They ought not to discuss it in an attack upon an individual, without giving him notice of their intention to assail 1607 him, and without affording to the Government that had appointed him the means of defending him. If there was any objection to the character of the individual appointed, and if that objection were connected with the Administration, it became a very serious matter, and tended to throw discredit upon the Government, and they should he afforded the opportunity of replying to it.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, the subject was undoubtedly a grave one, and if noble Lords opposite could shew that this person was fitted for his situation in any one respect, he should be satisfied with their negativing his Motion.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that in spite of the amusing and sarcastic speech of the noble Lord, he thought this a very serious subject, and it was greatly to be regretted, that, when his noble and learned Friend entertained the opinions he did, as to promotion being preferable to persecution, he did not impress these opinions upon the Government at the time that they dismissed the local Magistrates in Ireland,—not the paid Magistrates, it was to be observed,—for their Repeal opinions. As to the appointment of his right hon. Friend, he really did not think that his noble and learned Friend would have made that charge against the late Government, when he knew that the appointment had taken place many years after the opinions expressed by him on the subject of Repeal had been abandoned—for opinions expressed, and a part taken by him as a Member of the Legislature; and then he must own that he was still more surprised to hear his noble and learned Friend declare, that Mr. Sheil's appointment had never been objected to, that no objection had ever been urged against it. Surely, when his noble and learned Friend said this, he must have forgotten, that for two long years of his noble Friend's (Viscount Melbourne's) Administration, at every meeting of what was called Conservative gatherings there was nothing heard but the denunciation of the appointment of Mr. Sheil. It was one of the grounds of attack against that Administration. Now, as to the appointment of Stipendiary Magistrates, he must again state, that he considered it one of the most important which the Irish Government could make. He now, then, put it to their Lordships whether the person, whose letter he had read, could be 1608 considered one in the exercise of whose discretion any confidence could be placed; and whether a Government who made such an appointment was not to be considered responsible when they adopted a person who had committed himself to such sentiments. He had been accused of bringing forward this Motion without notice. The Motion was a mere matter of course. It was one he had heard moved a hundred times without the slightest objection being offered to it. No objection was urged against it in the first instance; and if the Gentleman had not been appointed at the time, then the Return he moved for would be the best defence of the Government. There was, it ought to be known to noble Lords, an Irish Office in town; and though his noble Friend (Earl de Grey) had declared that he never read the Irish papers, yet still in the Office to which he referred there ought to be the information which he sought. This subject had been a matter of discussion for the last month; and, from the objections that had been made to the appointment, and seeing the name omitted in the Return he had moved for, he considered that the appointment had not taken place. It was, then, under these circumstances, that his attention was called to the subject that morning, and if the appointment had been made when he proposed his motion, he could not conceive how it could be objected to. It was a matter of course—a thing that had been done a hundred times. When he said a matter of course, he recollected that when he was in Office, questions were put day after day, and week after week, by noble Lords opposite, and they were always expecting to have answers at once given them. He was not aware that there was anything irregular or unusual in the course that he had pursued. He was satisfied that he had done his duty in calling attention to the point, and he was glad to hear that it was now in the hands of his noble Friend, should the Government persist in their ill-advised appointment.
§ Lord Wharncliffedid not object to the Motion, but he did to what he must call the untimely and uncourteous nature of the attack made upon the Government, of which not the least notice was given, either to the Gentleman appointed or to the Government, so that it was impossible either to defend the appointment, or reply to the attack made.
§ The Earl of Riponsaid, that he, for one, did not complain of the noble Marquess because he had proposed a Motion, but for his speech—not a simple statement—but a very violent speech. A Gentleman speaking was not always aware of his own violence; but he said that the noble Marquess had made a most bitter attack upon the Government—a most severe attack upon the Lord Lieutenant. The insinuation amounted to this, that the Lord Lieutenant had kept hack the name of this Gentleman. If it were not so meant, that at least appeared to be the insinuation. Certainly no one who heard the noble Marquess, but must feel that a very serious attack had been made—it might be a deserved attack upon the writer of the private letter—the ridiculous letter that had been read; but then all this was done without notice. He did not complain of the Motion, which was a mere matter of course, but he said that no Government, conducted howsoever wisely or well at an instant, if an attack were thus made upon it, could possibly give an explanation. His noble Friend talked of reading newspapers—he seemed to consider it to be a duty to pick up all sorts of stories. He did not know how much idle time the noble Marquess had to read the Irish papers—nor how he could spare the time to go through them day by day; but this he knew, that a man who was engaged in public life found it impossible to read them. Whether the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was to be objected to, because he did not read the Irish newspapers, and search out all the things that might be complained of in those voluminous documents, he did not know; or whether it was conceived to be a part of his duty upon every single appointment he made, to ferret out in the Irish newspapers whether it was approved or disapproved of. As to the Motion it was all very right; hut he did think that at another time it would be more fair to all parties whom the noble Marquess meant to condemn, to give them notice of his intention to do so.
The Marquess of Normanbyhoped, that at another time the occasion might not occur for finding so much fault as at present. His noble Friend opposite had said that he found fault with the Lord Lieutetenant with respect to the Return. He had made no attack upon the Lord Lieutenant as to the Return. He did, however, find fault with him as to the appointment, 1610 and when the occasion occurred would show just grounds for so finding fault with him. At the same time he did not hold him responsible for the Return. There was, however, the appearance of blame somewhere, if there were an omission in the Return. His noble Friend complained of his having made a violet speech. The facts were strong, and he left the facts to speak for themselves; and if there were any violence in his speech, that was to be found in the facts he had stated. His noble Friend had said, too, that it would not he convenient to hold the Government responsible for not reading the Irish papers. He attached no such responsibility to them; but there was the Irish Office in London, and the Government, through the means of that Office, ought not now to be without an answer. When his noble Friend, Lord Morpeth, was Chief Secretary for Ireland, he was never unprepared for the defence of any appointment cot that had been made. This was a point to which public attention had been very generally directed. The matter was one that had occupied a considerable space in the discussions on Ireland, and it was therefore impossible that the local Government of Ireland could be ignorant of it; that they could not be able to answer upon that which was a matter of notoriety.
§ The Earl of Riponobserved, that if the noble Marquess had brought forward his Motion on Monday, he could have been answered satisfactorily and fully. He presumed it was not the convenience of the noble Marquess to wait till Monday. Probably the noble Marquess was going out of town, and that was the reason for their having a premature discussion, and when Government could not have time to answer him.
§ Lord Wharncliffehear, hear.
The Marquess of Normanbyremarked that such a defence of the Government must he exceedingly satisfactory to the noble President of the Council, when he cheered it so loudly.