Lords Sitting of 18 March 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—2a. 3½ per Cent. Annuities; 3½per Cent. Annuities (1818); Consolidated Fund.
Private.—1a. Malan's Naturalization; Cababe's Naturalization.
2a. Nugent's Naturalization; Edwards. Estate.
3a. and passed:—Bow Brickhill Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED, By the Bishop of Bangor, from several places, against Union of Sacs of St. Asaph and Bangor.—From Cornwall Medical Association, for Medical Reform.—By the Marquess of Exeter, from 55 places, for Protection to Agriculture.—By Earl Fitzwilliam, from Glasgow, respecting Ireland.

SLAVERY IN THE UNITED STATES.
Lord Denmanwished, he said, to address a few observations to their Lordships on a subject that had been referred to by a noble and learned Friend of his a few nights before; who had stated that there had been in Louisiana the capital conviction of a person for promoting the escape of a slave; but when the subject had been brought before their Lordships, there appeared then
to serve party purposes, the work I have been employed upon, the insignificant wages I have received, the hopes and expectations which have been held out to me, and now (when they have got all out of me they can) the manner in which I have been cast off, even by Lord Ashley himself, without assigning any reason, and refusing to listen to my claims, all this would form a pamphlet as large as that of Jowett's, which I inclose."
"I could then expose this Jowett, who has taken so much pains, as you will see by the inclosed pamphlet, to cast a stigma on your firm and others. In order that you may know what sort of a man this is, I will tell you the orders I received from him, previous to visiting your place last year. 'You must go to Turton and get all the information you can concerning the works of Messrs. Ashworth, they are show mills. The Ashworths are deep, cunning fellows, and you must take particular care not to come in contact with them, or their people.' Thus you see, I was to stroll about in the immediate vicinity of your mills, and get in the company of any stray person I might see, and by treating them with beer or by any other means, get all the information I required—if the person was one that you had cast off, so much the better."
"My name having acquired a notoriety in consequence of the manner in which my case has been held up to the public, I have had an offer to write articles on the Factory System, for a low weekly paper; I have already wrote one as a trial, but it is much against my feelings, only it supplies me with a dinner when, otherwise, I might probably be obliged to go without."
"November 2, 1842.
"You will perhaps be surprised to hear, that in nay necessity, I wrote to Lord Ashley, sta-

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to be no great reason to fear that the sentence passed would be carried into effect. The probability then was, that the law being once declared, denouncing the heaviest punishment against offences of this description, that declaration would have been thought sufficient—that it was not likely, or credible, that a law like this would have been carried into execution. But, unfortunately, since that time a document had been published in the public papers, with respect to the authenticity of which no doubt could be entertained, and by which it appeared that on the 25th April one of their fellow-creatures would undergo the punishment of death for having promoted the escape of a slave! Now, nobody could be more sensible than him-
ting my circumstances, and requesting the remittance of a small balance due to me for services rendered, and received a very angry letter, saying that I had no claim upon them, that my employment was 'a mere matter of charity,' that I had received so much money, and even recounted the dinners I had received at his Lordship's table, and told me the condition I was in at the time he took notice of me, and other matters equally galling. It is very clear that the party has all along considered me only as a tool, and that having made all the use they can of me, I may now go about my business. I am sorry that I am not in a situation in life as would enable me to speak my mind freely; was I in a good business and entirely independent of the party, I could "a tale unfold,' but this, circumstanced as I now am, would be my ruin."
In addition to the letters from which the foregoing extracts are taken, there were thirteen other letters, placed for a time in the hands of Mr. Henry Ashworth, but afterwards returned to Dodd. The following is a verbatim copy of a letter from Dodd which accompanied them, and from it may be inferred something of their contents, which is all that can now be given of them, as Mr. Ashworth returned them without taking copies or making any extracts from them. This letter is headed
"EXPLANATION.
"Sir,—I have numbered the letters, &c., from one to thirteen, for the purpose of enabling you more easily to comprehend their contents, and hope you will have no difficulty in understanding the whole affair; but lest anything should appear doubtful, I have given the following explanation which wilt assist you a little. These are but a few of the papers, but they will be sufficient to shew you the nature of the business they wanted me for
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self that it was the duty, the right of all States to lay down rules which were to guide the conduct of all their people; and the duty of all other States to abstain from interfering with them; but from the deep respect which they entertained in this country—and he spoke, he might say, in the name of the whole judicial body—for the manner in which justice was administered in America, the humanity anti legal knowledge which guided its proceedings, and inspired the eminent men who presided in the courts, and communicated their decisions, that he was induced to advert to this subject here, entreating of all in authority, in the name of humanity and of justice, to pause a moment, and consider whether such a sentence ought to be
"No. 1.—Card of the gentleman to whom I was engaged.
"No. 2.—Letter I received after Mr. Jowett had waited upon Sir F. W. M—, showing that it had been asked him to postpone Ins experiment, till I had done my business for Lord A—
"No. 3.—Letter from ditto respecting the agreement which I was induced to decline in consequence of the promises and assurances of Mr. Jowett and Lord A—
"No. 4.—Letter showing the connection of Lord A—and Mr. Jowett.
"No. 5.—Letter from Mr. Jowett spewing a little of his instructions to me.
"No. 6.— Letter from ditto on Fielden's mills
"No. 7.—Two pages of colouring matter on ditto.
"No. 8.—A letter on money matters.
"No. 9.—A letter from the book-binder slimming how he had been reduced in the price of binding from 4½d. per vol. the price I had promised him, to something less than 4d. by the men who are wishing to uphold (?) the wages of the labourer.
"Nos. 10 and 11.—Two letters from Lord A—,commending my dilligence, &c.
"No. 12.—One letter on business.
"No. 13.—A letter I received after I had taken every step I could think of to draw his Lordship's attention to the ill treatment I had experienced from Mr. Jowett. This will spew how his Lordship's mind had been poisoned, and will shew the manner of dismissing those who will not 'go the whole hog' in their service. Had I allowed Mr. Jowett to put forth his statements under my name, I should not have received this latter, neither would I have been cast off without a hearing in the presence of Mr. Jowett, my accuser, as I have been. In this letter there are many erroneous statements, which I could contradict if I had an opportunity."

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carried into effect. He believed that no such event had ever happened before, and he believed that every consideration of self-respect would induce them to forego the intention. The State of Louisiana was remarkable for being one of the first in which the sanguinary code of former times was mitigated. Many years ago, Mr. Livingstone drew up a code much less severe than that which had previously existed, and all the nations of Europe, including our own, had been proud to take a lesson of humanity from it, and had found the benefit of it in a diminution in the amount of aggravated crimes. Neither the general question of Slavery, nor any abstract question was involved; but he would respectfully ask how far a punishment so disproportioned to the offence should be carried into effect, as a matter of expediency. He knew that some persons might apprehend that a public avowal of sentiments of this kind might, when conveyed across the Atlantic, give rise to a degree of jealousy and irritation, increasing the probability of the sentence being carried into execution; but, from the best inquiries he had been able to make on this subject, it was his most decided conviction that he incurred no danger of tins sort; that some benefit might be produced, and that it was quite impossible that there could be any injury from those opinions being stated. Indeed, it required but a moment's consideration to be perfectly convinced that, in a civilized state, no motive could be afforded for carrying such a law into effect by the expression of opinion in any part of the world. It was, therefore, with a deep feeling on his part, with the same feeling on the part of some of his learned brethren, though they felt that as a body they were precluded from coming forward, that he thus publicly called attention to the subject. He hoped that those to whom his appeal was made would feel that the devoting a fellow-creature to death, for a crime such as this man had been convicted of, was throwing back the cause of civilization, and risking the protection of the property which the law was intended to defend. He had given no notice to Her Majesty's Government of his intention to bring this matter forward, being fully aware that it was utterly impossible for the State to interfere in any way. He did not ask for any answer. It was only from the probability that this sentence might he mitigated by the expression of public opinion, that in the few hours which he could take from the circuit he had given
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up a portion of that time to call for a reconsideration of this matter on the ground of the general principles of humanity and expediency; for every man who thought must know, that on the respect which attends the execution of the law, its efficiency must depend.

THREE-AND-A-HALF PER CENTS.
The Earl of Riponproposed the second reading of the Three-and-a-Half per Cents Bill. The object which they had in view was to reduce the interest upon those annuities from Three-and-a-Half per Cent. to Three-and-a-Quarter per Cent. in the first instance, and ultimately to Three per Cent. His Lordship described the mode in which it was proposed to effect this object, as detailed elsewhere by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and congratulated the House on the fact, that the state of the actual resources of the country enabled them to make this important change, and give the public the benefit of this great saving, without adding to the permanent debt of the country.
Lord Broughamexpressed his entire approval of the measure as being one of vast public benefit, and said, that the operation testified to all Europe the solidity of the resources of this country and its untouched credit, a reputation which they owed to their having religiously abstained on this side of the Atlantic—that was, the European English had abstained from doing anything that might have a tendency, or the shadow of a tendency, to impeach the right of the creditor to be paid by his debtor. The manner in which this measure had been planned and carried into execution deserved the highest praise. Instead of effecting this reduction of interest by giving a bonus, or by any other plan by which the capital of the public debt would be increased, there had been a careful avoiding of making any increase to the capital of the debt. Such a proceeding must give additional Confidence to the country and to the friends of this country in the stability of its resources.
Lord Monteaglesaid, the change was a very important one, and if he differed with the mode in which it had been carried into effect, it was as to details only. With the general mode in which the proposal had been carried out he entirely

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concurred. The measure was one of unexampled magnitude, affecting an immense mass of capital, yet there had not been the slightest alarm caused by it, although there were no less than 81,000 holders of stock whose dividends were under 10 l. This was to be attributed to the great confidence those holders had in the resources and in the good faith of the country. The arrangement was the more satisfactory, because it was not made by any undue tampering with the credit or currency of the country. It was effected on sound and rational principles. If they had a large surplus revenue with which they could effect the reduction, the operation could not be considered unjust, when there was a great reduction in the interest of money throughout the country at the same time. It was not then a question of choice, but of paramount duty to take that step. Whatever might be the pressure on individuals, it was the bounden duty of Government to propose the reduction for the purpose of assisting the credit of the country. The great reduction of interest on money was not altogether an unmixed benefit. The lowering of the value of money tended to increase speculation in the same ratio, and this had, on former occasions, been attended with great public inconvenience and mischief. There were some evils from which they were somewhat protected at present. Formerly the low rate of interest induced people to invest their capital in all kinds of foreign securities; but he believed the experience of what had happened within the last ten years tended very much to guard against the recurrence of that evil. They found in the end that the British Funds were the best and safest. If they looked to what occurred in the Old and the New World in that period, it would prove the importance of maintaining public credit. If the American States had maintained their credit, they would now feel the advantage of the employment of British capital, their territory would have afforded us the best market for our products, and the advantages would have been reciprocal. In 1824 there was a great abundance of money; that was followed by the subsequent over-speculation and calamity of 1825 and 1826. He believed, that there was still a tendency to such exaggerated speculation, and there would be some danger of it in the trade recently opened
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with China; he understood this trade had been carried to a great excess and consequently the profits would be found far from remunerating. This was a great reduction, and it proceeded on just and sound principles. It would add to the public revenue no less a sum than 1,200,000 l. per annum. He, therefore, hoped on this, as well as on other grounds, that they should obtain a remission of the Property and Income Tax at the time originally fixed. He also hoped that the opportunity would riot be lost for a revision of the taxation of the country. The country was much obliged to the Government for the changes they had introduced into the Customs' Laws last year, and he trusted they would in justice to themselves explain in that and the other House of Parliament the effect which those alterations had produced, because he believed they would find that in proportion as they applied those principles which ought to regulate Financial and Customs' legislation, they had profited by those measures. He could not sit down without observing, that the diminution in the charge of the Public Debt made by the country since the close of the war had been greater than the most sanguine prophet could by possibility have anticipated. The reductions made, and which might be made within a period which many of their Lordships might expect to live to see, were as follows:—

Annuities for terms expiring between 1841 and 1864

£2,506,529

Annuities for lives

831,665

£3,338,194

Bank of England dead weight annuity

585,740

£3,923,934

Saving on interest of funded debt from 1822 to 1850

2,700,000

£6,623,000

The success of the experiment proved the credit of this country to an infinitely greater extent than if they had kept up an immense amount of taxation for the purpose of keeping up a Sinking Fund. If they had kept up a Sinking Fund of 5,000,000 l. or 6,000,000 l. a-year, they could not have operated such an amount of reduction with the same certainty. He objected to the guarantee that was given, as it was often an inconvenience—a Government being thus tied down by the

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acts of its predecessor, and he must say that upon principle it was to be desired that a somewhat longer notice had been given to the holders of stock. The Bill would not receive the Royal Assent until Thursday, and the time for giving notice was to expire on Saturday. This would operate as no practical grievance, he admitted, in this instance, because it would not be for the interest of the holders to object to the terms; but still he thought that on principle a longer period should have been allowed.
The Earl of Riponwas glad to find that the noble Lord's objections were confined to the details of the measure. With regard to the notice it had been limited, and he admitted that it might have been advisable to have given a more extended notice, as they had done on similar occasions; but when they dealt with a subject of this magnitude, it was important that the transaction should be closed at as early a period as possible, and as no essential injury to the parties interested could ensue, he must confess that as a matter of principle he did not feel that the Government were called upon to give longer notice. His noble Friend had alluded to the guarantee. He did not object to the principle, that it was, in general, inconvenient for a Government to tie itself up in this manner for a series of years; but it must be granted that in this case the holders of the stock were entitled to some bonus. They had received no bonus by any increase to their capital, and when it was considered that there were 81,000 holders of this stock, whose income did not exceed 10 l. a-year, as they had no bonus in their capital, it seemed but fair and reasonable that they should have such a bonus as that which was granted to them by this measure. In respect to what his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had said touching the diminution of the Public Debt, that statement was, no doubt, an accurate one, and afforded a strong proof of the high character and credit of this country. In the year 1829 he had himself called the attention of their Lordships' House to that subject. Between the year 1815, when that charge was at its highest, and the year he had just referred to, the diminution of this charge had not been less than 4,000,000 l., representing a capital of 120,000,000 l. Since that period other reductions had taken place; and, making
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allowance for the 20,000,000 l. required to carry into effect the measure for the abolition of slavery, the reduction in the charge for the funded and unfunded debt was considerably more than 4,000,000 l. annually. This showed most clearly and satisfactorily, that while they scrupulously respected good faith, they were enabled from time to time to get rid of some portion of their debt.
Lord Monteaglesaid, there was one part of the scheme which had scarcely been remarked upon, but for which he thought the Government deserved particular credit—he meant the equalization of the dividends. There was, perhaps, no measure apparently so small from which greater benefit might be expected to flow.
The Bill was then read a second time, as was also the Three-and-a-Half per Cent. (1818) Annuities Bill, and (the Standing Orders being suspended) both Bills passed through Committee.
Ordered to be read a third time.

THE CREECH—(IRELAND).
Earl Fitzwilliamsaid, he had a petition to present to their Lordships, signed by the chairman of what he understood to have been a very numerous meeting of the inhabitants of Glasgow; and the petitioners prayed the consideration of their Lordships of the several points to which they alluded in the course of their petition. They referred, for the grounds upon which they exercised their right of addressing their Lordships, to the state of that country, which they said exhibited a great number of features indicative of a very unwholesome state of the body politic in that country, and one very eminently calculated to excite the utmost alarm; exhibiting an absentee and non-resident Gentry, an uneducated and discontented pauper population, inveterate religious animosities, insecurity of person and property, a contempt for the existing laws and institutions, and a growing hatred of all connexion with Great Britain. Making a little allowance for the exaggerations which were likely to prevail at meetings of large bodies, where the feeling of each individual tended to excite the feeling entertained by others, there was no doubt that the points to which the petitioners referred, were of the greatest possible importance. The petitioners concluded their statement of the grounds upon which they founded their petition with one remarkable proposition, upon which he should take the liberty of addressing a few

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words to their Lordships. They stated that one of the principal grievances of which Ireland had to complain, was the existence of the Established Church, which was not only exclusive and intolerant in its spirit and character, but was opposed to the consciences of the great body of the people, who viewed it. as a tool of political fiction, and subversive of general tranquillity; and that such an Establishment (and this was the important part of their prayer)—that such an Establishment did not admit of being amended, but that, in order to obtain the pacification of Ireland, it must be wholly abolished. It sometimes happened that when a noble Lord presented a petition to that House, he agreed in all the sentiments winch the petition professed to convey, but his opinion on this section of the present petition was entirely different from that of the petitioners. He was by no means of opinion that the Church of England ought to be abolished in Ireland; on the contrary, he thought that the Established Church ought to be rendered inure effective for the only true purposes for which it could be designed, namely, the administration of spiritual and religious comfort to that portion of the people to which they were adapted; but he thought the Government of this country had been guilty of a great crime in not providing fur the administration of spiritual and religious comfort to the people of Ireland. The great offence of the Legislature of this country was, that for 150 years they had proscribed the Roman Catholic priesthood, and deprived the great body of the people of any legal right to the administration of religious services. He did not apprehend that there would be any such great difficulty in removing that evil. The difficulty complained of was not the difficulty of the matter itself, but it arose from the prejudices of those who had influence in the government of Ireland. When he spoke of those who had influence in the government, he did not of course mean the half dozen gentlemen who sat on the opposite side, but the great governing power of the general British community; because those who sat upon the opposite bench were only the representatives of that public feeling which they professed to govern, but which all who governed must follow in some degree in order that they might draw it after them. He was told that the Roman Catholics themselves would not consent to anything like an endowment from the State, while such a measure
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would be distasteful to the English people, and excite the hostility of the Dissenters, and of the whole North of Ireland. But, however distasteful to the people of England such schemes might be—although such schemes might be distasteful to the Protestants of England and Ireland, yet he must remark that those who passed through life were exposed to many disagreeable things from the hour of birth to the hour of death, and that nations were not exempt from the lot to which individuals were subject. We might be obliged to submit to many things which were disagreeable to its: the Scotch Presbyterian might be obliged to submit to things that; were disagreeable to himself; the English Dissenter might he obliged to submit to things that were disagreeable; and the Irish Catholic might be subjected to things more distaste-hit still, if he were not inured to what was disagreeable by the legislation of England; ay, and what the Church of England herself might be reduced to feel sometimes doomed to abate some little of that authority—some little of that dominance—which with all the merits of those who administered her functions, had been a stain upon her character; and the heads of that Church might be brought to feel that there was something even more disagreeable still than the being brought to give up a small portion of that which had hitherto appertained to that sect, of which they were the ministers and the ornaments; for notwithstanding a rebuke which he had once received from a right reverend prelate, who did not often deal in rebuke, and to whom he was sure it must have been disagreeable to administer any medicine of that kind—he must, nevertheless, persevere in maintaining that even the Church of England itself was a sect. That was only one sect: the Roman Catholics of Ireland were another sect; the Presbyterians of Scotland were another; and the Independents of England constituted another. These were all different sects, and it would perhaps be a bitter pill to that sect which had hitherto been dominant to feel that the time was not far distant when some portion of those resources which had hitherto been devoted exclusively to the services of their own religion must be given up—as they ought to be given up, if the object were to act justly to the people of that country—for the maintenance of other religious establishments. He would be bound to say that if the experiment were tried—at least he had a little suspicion that if something in the

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nature of an Establishment were offered to the Irish Roman Catholic, he would not be disposed to reject it. But let him warn their lordships against any attempt at making the Irish Roman Catholic priesthood a stipendiary priesthood or pensioners upon the Government. That would not do. He had heard—and he supposed there must be some truth in what was stated, although of the details he knew nothing—but it was rumoured that the Government had not been entirely asleep on this question, and that they had some plan floating in their minds—something under consideration with respect to the maintenance of the priesthood in the sister island. He had not heard the details of those plans, but what he protested against was the principle of maintaining the Catholic priesthood as pensioners and stipendiaries upon the will of the Government. If any thing was to be done—and Ireland had great claims for something—the Protestant rector and the Roman Catholic priest must be placed upon precisely the same footing—they must both be made to feel that they had an interest in the soil; one must not be taught to consider himself to be a superior, and assume the airs of a superior, while the other felt himself an inferior, and felt all the shame and degradation of his inferiority. Far be it from him to wish that there should be recommended to Parliament any system which should not recognize the perfect equality of the two great sects into which that country was divided. For his own part he saw no great difficulty in accomplishing it; but if men, instead of being sectarians, would only be Christians—if they would recollect that some 150 years ago, the whole of the ecclesiastical property of Ireland was confiscated and torn from those who had been its original possessors, and appropriated to other purposes, he apprehended there was no man in that House so visionary—however successful the experiment might have been if tried at a former period—but he believed there was no man visionary enough to contend, that after six or eight generations had passed away, there was any tendency in the maintenance of the Established Church, to convert the Irish Papist to Protestantism. If ever that vision had presented itself to the mind of any man—and that it had prevailed at the close of the seventeenth century, he entertained no doubt —if that vision had ever existed, it must long since have vanished. Years had rolled over, generations had passed away, and not the slightest inroad was made upon Catholicism
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in Ireland. On the contrary, while of course the absolute numbers of Roman Catholics in that country was greater, he believed that in proportion they were more numerous than they had been. A noble Friend of his near him said there could be no doubt that the proportion of Roman Catholics to Protestants was increased. If any inference was to be drawn from that fact—he did not draw the inference—but if any was to be drawn, it would be that the existence of the Protestant Church in Ireland, so far from tending to extend the boundaries of the Protestant Church, was rather calculated to extend those of the other sect. He said he did not draw that inference—he did not desire to draw it—but this he would say, that justice to Ireland—justice to the people of Ireland—justice to the religious people of Ireland, required that the whole ecclesiastical property of Ireland should no longer be taken and applied to the service of one sect only, and that sect the most wealthy, and, consequently, the best able, even if it were not endowed with ecclesiastical property, the best able to provide means for those ministrations of religion to which the ecclesiastical property of a country ought to be adequate. He wished, therefore, to see the ecclesiastical property of Ireland applied to the maintenance of the priesthood—if he might be allowed to use the term priesthood—of both sects. To hear some persons speak of Ireland, one would suppose that there was nothing but Roman Catholics in Ireland; and to hear others you would think there was nothing but Protestants; and perhaps those who argued as if there were none but Protestants had the best justification for their error, because they had only to read the Acts of Parliament which constituted that penal code which was the disgrace of England—they had only to read those acts to find that the Legislature of this country not only wished to annihilate the Catholic religion in Ireland, but had proceeded upon the assumption that there did not exist such a creature as an Irish Papist, and, therefore, they were perhaps more justified in their reasoning than if in talking of Ireland they represented that there was nothing but Catholics there. But some one would say, "Oh, but this won't be done this session." No, he did not suppose it would be done this session, nor perhaps next session, but their Lordships might depend upon it that the people of this country who were most prejudiced against an alteration must make up their

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minds to something being done. This might be a Roman Catholic question in another form—indeed it was a Catholic question in another form. Twenty years might pass away, but it was as sure to be done as when the Union was carried it was certain that Catholic Emancipation must follow. There were wiseacres who said that that question ought to have been settled—in the other House he had heard wise men say that it ought to have been settled soon after the Union, whether the Roman Catholics were to carry their point, or to remain in their hopeless and degraded state—that this ought to have been settled. Why, there were some sorts of questions which could only be settled in one way. There were some which you might settle in one way or in another way, but there were some questions which you could settle only in one way, and the Catholic question was one of them, and the question upon which he was now addressing a few words to their Lordships was another. They might depend upon it that they could not maintain an exclusive Church in Ireland. The day was gone by for that. Far be it from him to entertain a wish that the Protestant Church in Ireland was gone. So far from that, he wished to see the Protestant Church maintained—he wished to see every Protestant parish maintained—to see the property of every parish maintained, and all parochial property applied parochially. He would have nothing to do with spoliation, or with taking away the property of minor communities, and throwing it all into one hotch-potch, for the Government to dispose of as they thought proper. That was not the way to deal with the sub-communities. That was a system of centralization which would be contrary to equity, to justice, and to sound policy. It was one of the maxims of civil government not to embrace all the property of minor communities in one fund, and he would have nothing to do with such a species of centralization. It was essential to liberty—it was essential to freedom that the minor communities should be maintained; and it was therefore essential that the parochial property of Ireland and of England should be maintained, and not rendered to be doled out by the ministers—he meant the religious ministers—in the way which the administration for the time being might think fit. He was sanguine on this subject, although he did not expect to see his desires accomplished very soon; but he was sanguine in the belief that the object could
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be very easily effected if men would shake oil their prejudices. That, perhaps, was one of the most difficult things for a man to do, but he entertained a hope that the people of England and of Scotland would not furnish an argument in favour of Repeal. He did not wish for a repeal of the Union; then let not their Lordships furnish the strongest arguments in its favour, by showing that they were insensible to the wants of the Irish people, and were too prejudiced to govern them as they ought to be governed. Let them show that they were not prejudiced—let them act upon the principles of justice to all—not surrendering everything to one party, but giving to each what each ought to have. These might be difficult things to accomplish, but they were difficult because we surrendered ourselves to our prejudices, and were not disposed to govern others on the principles upon which we desired to be governed ourselves. Disagreeing, as he had said he did, from one very important part of the prayer of the petition, he had felt it necessary to explain how far he was disposed to go—not in abolishing the Church of England in Ireland, but rather in strengthening its foundation and enabling it to resist those attacks which their Lordship's might depend upon it would otherwise be directed, and which, if they trusted to the experience of other times, they must feel would be not unsuccessfully directed against it.
The Duke of Wellington.My Lords, I must say, there can be nothing more inconvenient than the discussion of such large questions as the noble Lord has entered on in the speech which he has just delivered upon the mere presentation of a petition. My Lords, those questions related riot merely to the topics contained in that petition, to the state of the Protestant religion in Ireland, or to the compacts that were entered into for the maintenance of that religion in Ireland, but they referred to the very foundation of the Reformation in this country, and the noble Lord has propounded to your Lordships a something, neither the nature of which, nor the period at which it is to be carried into execution, is he himself exactly certain of. Something or other must be done; to that something this country must make up its mind; the noble Lord does not state what it is to be; but it is, at all events, to involve the repeal of those laws upon which the Reformation

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in this country has been founded. My Lords, I have already taken opportunities of warning your Lordships against the assertion of such doctrines in this House, and I must again express a hope that you will observe and beware how they are introduced into it, because you may rely upon it, that there is not an individual in this country, be his religious opinions what they may, be his position what it may, who is not interested in the maintenance of the Reformation. Not only our whole system of religion, but our whole system of religious toleration, in which so many people in this country are interested, depends upon the laws on which the Reformation was founded; and I therefore entreat your Lordships to give no encouragement to doctrines that might induce a belief that there existed in this House any indifference upon the subject of those laws. With respect to the Church of Ireland, I beg of your Lordships to recollect that the Protestant Church in Ireland, has existed in that country for a period of nearly 300 years; that it was maintained in that country during a century of contests, rebellions, and massacres; that during a contest for the possession of the Crown, the Protestants of that country encountered that contest and kept possession of their Church; that during another century it was maintained through much opposition, and under difficulties of all descriptions; and that at the period of the Union the Parliament, who had the power either to consent to the Union, or to refuse their consent, stipulated that the Protestant Church in Ireland should be maintained, and maintained on the same footing as the Protestant Church of England in this country. My Lords, the Parliament of Ireland had, under the auspices of the King of this country, the power of either making or not making that compact. Your Lordships entered into that compact with the Parliament of Ireland, and I entreat you never to lose sight of the fact. I entreat you not to suffer yourselves to be prevailed on to make any alteration in, or to depart in the slightest degree from, the terms of that compact, so long as you intend to maintain the Union between this country and Ireland. It is the foundation upon which the Union rests—it is a compact which you entered into with the Parliament of Ireland, and from which you cannot depart without being guilty of a breach of faith, worse
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than those which had been referred to in other countries; worse than those pecuniary breaches of faith which have been alluded to in the course of the discussion which took place in your Lordships' House this evening upon another subject. I entreat you to listen to none of these petitions or speeches which tend to the injury or the destruction of the Church in Ireland. Do what may be necessary—do what it may be proper to do, in order to render that Church more beneficial to the people of that country—but I entreat you to adhere strictly, in spirit and according to the letter, to the compact you have made, and not permit it to be supposed in any quarter whatever that you entertain the most distant intention of departing, in the slightest degree, from that arrangement. The noble Lord says, that the feeling of this country at the present moment is in favour of that arrangement. I sincerely hope that it is so, and that as long as there is a spark of honour in the country the same feeling will continue to be evinced in every part of it. The noble Lord has also stated, and truly, that before the mind of the country can change so far as to induce it to depart from that compact, it must first be made up to undermine the foundation of the Reformation in this country. While waiting for the scheme which, according to the noble Lord, is to be carried out—God knows when—I must again entreat your Lordships not to think of violating the compact into which you have entered for the preservation of the Church in Ireland.
Earl Fitzwilliamsaid, the noble Duke had a little misstated what he had said in representing him to have expressed a desire to subvert the laws on which the Reformation was founded. He had never said any such thing. He had never thought of anything of the kind. What he had said was, that tithe and other ecclesiastical property in every parish might be devoted to the payment of the Catholic as well as the Protestant clergy, and how that had anything to do with subverting the laws of the Reformation he was at a loss to conceive. But the speech of the noble Duke reminded him of speeches he had heard in the other House of Parliament; and he dared to say similar speeches had been made in their Lordships' House some twenty-five or thirty years ago, with respect to the Coronation Oath, and other fine subjects, which were not to be touched; and he would venture, with

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all submission, and with that high respect which he entertained for the noble Duke, to place his speech of to-night in the same category. He had no doubt the time would come—precisely when, he did not know—when, notwithstanding all the warnings given by the noble Duke, whether the noble Duke himself, or somebody else following his example, or the noble Duke, following the example which he himself had set in 1829, he had no more doubt than that he was then standing on the floor of that House, that, by some one or other, some arrangement would be proposed—it might be better or it might be worse—for the establishment and payment of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland, and giving them an interest in the stability of Christian Churches in that country.
The Bishop of Exeterbegged to tender to the noble Earl his sincere thanks for having contributed so largely to the stability of the Church of Ireland, to the confidence of the Protestants of that country, to the gratification of the Protestants of England and all Christendom, by having drawn forth the most valuable speech of the noble Duke; and yet, while he rejoiced at that declaration, he must say, the subject had come upon him quite by surprise. The notice given by the noble Earl was merely of the presentation of a Petition from Glasgow, on the condition of Ireland, and he did not imagine, therefore, that any of their Lordships had been prepared for the matters which had been brought forward by the noble Earl. He had no wish to detain their Lordships for any length of time, but he desired to make a few observations on one or two points referred to by the noble Earl. The noble Earl had said, with much emphasis, "I will have nothing to do with spoliation;" and was perfectly amazed that his speech should be characterised as tending to destroy the principles of the Reformation; and the noble Earl had appeared somewhat entertained, either with his own wit or what had fallen from the noble Duke. What explanation had the noble Earl given? Only this, that spoliation would be to take the parochial property and centralize it. The noble Earl said:—"I'll have nothing to do with that—the ecclesiastical property of a parish should be employed for the ecclesiastical purposes of a parish, and should be divided between the Roman Catholic priests and the Protestant clergymen;" the meaning of which was, that the Protestant rector must give up such a portion of the Church-pro-
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perty as would satisfy the noble Earl, in order to widow the Roman Catholic priest. And the noble Earl wished their Lordships to suppose, that such a proceeding would not be spoliation. [A laugh from Earl Fitzwilliam.] The noble Earl seemed quite amused at the notion of spoliation; but possibly spoliation might, in the course of events, assume a form much less amusing to the noble Earl. Suppose the Church to be robbed of the property which it held, on the most sacred principle and sanction, how long would other sorts of property continue safe? Suppose, instead of the proposition in hand, the lay lords who had been enriched with vast possessions in that country by confiscations, of which the noble Earl had said something, were to be forced to disgorge that property in order to meet the wants of the poor in the parishes where it was situated; if he (the Bishop of Exeter) were to advocate such a proposition as that, he should be doing that which was opposed to his notion of common honesty; but, if he were to suggest it, he should certainly adopt the language of the noble Earl and say—"I will have no carrying off the property to distant places; oh, no! I will have no centralization: but I will confine the distribution of the money so acquired to the parishes whence it arises, and not let it be lavished by thousands and tens of thousands upon noblemen who spend it in Yorkshire or London." No, he (the Bishop of Exeter) should say, after the manner of the noble Earl:—"We divide the money among the poor of the respective parishes, who would certainly have as much right to it as the Church of Rome had to the property of the Church of Ireland." Was the Church the only body that despoiled, to use the language of the noble Earl? Portions of the lands forfeited to the Crown had been granted to the Church. But were the ecclesiastics of Ireland the only persons that built palaces, and fattened on the produce of the confiscations of former days? The noble Earl himself held property of that description, and so did another noble Earl near him, who so largely employed his property in benefiting the country whence it was so largely derived, and who resided amongst the people of that country. He should not have said so much on the subject, had not the observations been drawn from him by what had fallen from the noble Earl. A noble Marquess near the noble Earl was much in the same position as to the possession of property forfeited in the rebel-

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lions of two centuries ago. These three Noblemen alone held a larger amount of such property in Ireland than all the revenues of the Irish Church in any three counties that could be named there. It was not the way to do justice to Ireland to deprive the Church of the property which it held there on the security of the same laws which enabled these noble personages now to enjoy the fruits of the spoliation which had operated in their favour several centuries ago. He could not feel that the noble Earl had acted safely, prudently, or judiciously, in making the remarks he had put forward. Perhaps the noble Earl might consider it patriotism; if so, let the noble Earl give practical proof of his patriotism, by disgorging the confiscated property which he himself had so long held, and his ancestors before him; let him do this tardy justice, for justice he must consider it, if he thought the principles sound which he had enunciated as to the confiscated property held by the Church. The noble Earl had acted as a monitor on the present occasion; nay, he had gone further, and actually turned prophet. Perhaps the noble Earl would also allow him (the Bishop of Exeter) to turn prophet for the nonce, and, so permitted, he would venture this prophecy, that if the noble Earl's plan should take effect in Ireland, there would be a very short interval in deed, between the distribution of the Church property, which the noble Earl suggested, and the spoliation, as he would call it, of lay property. He begged to offer his heartfelt thanks to the noble Duke for the declaration he had made. Providence had enabled the noble Duke to confer great services on his country, and not the least had been conferred on the present occasion.
House adjourned.