Lords Sitting of 12 March 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS, Private.—1a. Rodbard's Name. Reported.—Schuster's Naturalization.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Duke of Richmond, from Whitwell, and by the Earl of Rosebery, from Linlithgow, for Protection to Agriculture.—By the Bishop of Bangor, from Tindaethwy, and 3 other places, and by the Bishop of London, from Stottesdon, and 4 places, against the Union of Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.—From Dissenting Congregations of Dublin, for Extending the Provisions of the Dissenters' Chapels Bill to Ireland.

PROTECTION TO AGRICULTURE.
The Earl of Roseberysaid, he held in his hand a Petition for the Protection of Agriculture, which emanated at a county meeting at Linlithgow, that he, as Lord Lieutenant of that county, had convened, he having received a requisition signed by some of the most influential gentlemen, freeholders, and farmers, requesting him to call the meeting. There was not much speaking, he believed, when the Petition was proposed, but he was bound to say, that he believed it conveyed the sense of the majority of persons engaged in agriculture in that county, and it was in favour of the present Corn Laws. Although he did not concur in the sentiments of the Petition, still he felt bound to present it, as it had been entrusted to him with that view. The Petition was signed by a most respectable body of persons.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that his noble Friend had remarked that there was no discussion at the meeting, and he (the Duke of Richmond) begged to ask why there should be? The Corn-Law question was not a new one, and it was not therefore necessary that it should be argued. The farmers had been charged by the Anti-Corn-Law League with being indifferent to the question, or with being friendly to a repeal of the Corn Laws, and they felt anxious to get rid of the disgrace of such an imputation. They determined upon showing the Anti-Corn-Law League that this was the case, by having meetings in all parts of the country, and petitioning Parliament. The farmers, however, were not averse to discussion, and in different places they fairly beat their opponents out of the field. He believed that the same result would follow in nearly all the counties of England if they had fair play. The landowners and farmers only desired to show that they were favourable to just protection, and that they were opposed to schemes that must end in the ruin of themselves, and of the labourers who were
842
under their protection. He was glad to hear the noble Earl admit, that though he did not approve of the sentiments of the Petition, it nevertheless spoke the opinion of the great majority of the landowners and farmers of Linlithgowshire.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.
Lord Campbellhaving asked the Lord Chancellor respecting the progress of the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, said, the next question he would ask related to a subject of very great importance. Individuals could not administer, so far as personal property was concerned, till probate was granted, which must be granted by the Ecclesiastical Court; and, under the present system, a great deal of hardship was experienced. For example, if a testator died worth 100,000 l. in one diocese, a single probate was sufficient for that; but, if he had property to the amount of 10 l. or 12 l., in another diocese, there must be probate granted with reference to that property. Now, he found in his noble and learned Friend's Bill nothing to remedy this inconvenience. It was, however, of the highest importance that some remedy should be devised to remove this inconvenience with respect to the passing of personal property. What he wished his noble and learned Friend, therefore, to explain to him was, what he intended to do in reference to those cases to which he had adverted? His noble Friend's Bill mired the evil retrospectively, by some very proper clauses, providing that all probates hitherto granted should be valid; but prospectively, he wished to know whether it was intended that hereafter, if probate were taken out bonâ fide, in any Diocesan Court respecting the bona notabilia of a testator, if it happened that of these bona notabilia to the amount of 5l. lay in another diocese, another probate should be taken out in the Court of that diocese?
The Lord Chancellorsaid, this was quite a voluntary proceeding on the part of his noble and learned Friend. The Bill was on the Table of the House, and no one was mere able than his noble and learned Friend of reading and construing an Act of Parliament, and he was sure he had, with his wonted industry, read the Bill, and must then be able to answer himself. It was, as his noble and learned Friend observed, a most important measure; and he would take upon himself to say, had not been introduced until after

843
grave consideration. Several successive Administrations had endeavoured to carry a measure of this kind and had failed. This Bill had been framed with great care and attention to the interests of different parties. It had been framed to pass. But if what his noble and learned Friend wished to do was adopted, he was afraid that the Bill would not pass at all. He admitted the existence of the inconvenience which his noble and learned Friend had pointed out, but he was quite sure that if what his noble and learned Friend proposed were adopted, the fate of the Bill would be similar to that of former attempts on the same subject. If his noble and learned Friend would suffer the Bill to pass, he might afterwards introduce another Bill for the purpose of extending it.
Lord Campbellsaid, he and others more competent than himself, had read the Bill, without being able to form a precise opinion as to the intention of his noble and learned Friend on the point adverted to, therefore he wished for information as to the intention of his noble and learned Friend. He now learned, that the law, as it stood, was to remain unaltered. He regretted it extremely. He knew that his noble and learned Friend might carry almost any Bill he pleased. But when this Bill was passed, he would probably he told that the time was gone by for the introduction of another.
Lord Broughamagreed that this was an important drawback upon a very important measure. The Bill had originated with himself in 1831, and he was sure, if his noble Friend who had spoken last was aware of the infinite difficulty of carrying any Bill at all on the subject, he would feel that they must be content with what they could get. He first brought it in as one Bill, then as two, then as six, then as two again, and then again as one, and when he went out of office it was reduced to its original state of unity, and it was the different interests—local interests—that created the difficulty, only exceeded by the extreme difficulty in passing the most useful and important alteration in the law that perhaps had ever been proposed—one in which he and all their Lordships, and all who possessed landed property in the country, had an interest—a General Registry Bill. That measure was defeated by precisely the same interest which defeated the Ecclesiastical Courts
844
Bill—that important body, and as the Americans would call them—influential body of men, the practitioners in the Courts, who were too strong for its supporters. As Cromwell said, "The sons of Zeruiah were too strong for them." The Measure was defeated, whether in the shape of one, two, or six Bills, and therefore he agreed with his noble Friend on the Woolsack. He was glad to receive the great good which was contained in this Bill, and hoped that when it was passed a more perfect Measure would be introduced afterwards.

BUILDINGS' REGULATIONS BILL.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he observed that a Bill had been introduced into the other House for the better Regulation of new Buildings. That Bill was entirely confined to the metropolitan districts, to which he believed it to be less applicable than to other crowded cities and towns; and he thought the restricting it to the metropolis would increase the evil, because those speculators who should desire to run up buildings in contravention of prospective enactments would be warned by the Bill of what they might do, and what if the Bill were extended to other towns, they would he precluded from doing. He thought a little effort on the part of the Government might make the Bill applicable to other parts. If the Government wished to remedy the great evil that existed in the metropolis they would proceed with a Drainage Bill. There was one part of the Bill which would be of great use both in the metropolis and elsewhere, namely, the prohibition—except under certain regulations—against living in cellars, but this was still more wanted in other parts of the country. He wished, therefore, to ask whether it was not possible to extend the provisions of the Bill to other towns?—and he would put another question, upon which, if his noble Friend was not at present prepared to answer him, he would probably give him the information he desired at a future time. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that works had been undertaken for the construction of a park, called Victoria Park, which would tend to promote the health and comfort of those classes of the residents in the metropolis who were in a great measure shut out from the reach of those outlets for free air which were situate at the west end of the

845
town. He wished to know what progress had been made in the Victoria Park, and why the progress of the works had been, if they were, suspended?
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, he was not prepared at present to answer the last question put by the noble Marquess, but he would inform himself upon the subject. With regard to the Metropolitan Buildings Bill, it had been under consideration since 1841, and it had not been found since then that the number of houses run up, with a view to avoid prospective enactments, was so great as to create any very considerable evil. With regard to the principal towns, there were in some of them local Acts to regulate Buildings, and it would require great care to frame any measure which would affect them. It was desired that the present Bill should pass as it was, and when its true meaning and intention were understood, it would be in the power of the municipalities in large towns to consider whether its enactments were applicable to their districts. He was not disposed at present to recommend the extension of the Measure, because there was a prospect next Session of introducing a really effective measure, and that would occasion small expense to the country.
The Marquess of Normanbyput it to the Government whether it would not be desirable to extend the provisions of that part of the Bill which referred to cellars now actually occupied to the suburbs of the metropolis, and other parts of the country. The parties occupying them were charged enormous rents, which they were obliged to pay, in order that they might reside in the district where their occupation called them.
The Marquess of Salisburyadmitted the evil of having persons huddled together, but did not think the suggestion of the noble Marquess would diminish the expense to those parties, as they would have to pay still higher rents for new abodes.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE.
Lord Monteaglesaid, the observations he was about to make were not observations recommending a new establishment or an additional collegiate foundation for the education of the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland. This was a question on which they were not called for the first time to argue upon, and therefore he should have less reluctance in expressing his opinions upon the matter. Their Lordships found
846
the Roman Catholic Collegiate Establishment in that country neither unrecognized nor unsupported by the public; it was not an institution of the day; they found it established, and he doubted very much whether, in either House of Parliament, except amongst some clerical individuals, there was one individual—at least among those connected with the Administration of the country—who was prepared to abandon or destroy the existing Establishment. He would refer to the high authority of Mr. Spencer Perceval, a strong Protestant, and one not inclined to be favourable to the Roman Catholic religion, and yet no man stated more strongly than he did the obligation contracted at the Union to maintain an endowment for the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland. He (Mr. Perceval) stated in the strongest language that this Vote was connected with the contract of the Union itself. His (Lord Monteagle's) object in pressing this view of the subject was, to prove to noble Lords that they should bear in mind that he was not now arguing for the establishment of a Roman Catholic endowment in Ireland, but, having found that Institution in activity, he wished to impress upon the House and the Government the present condition and nature of the Establishment. He would ask them to inquire whether Maynooth was not an Establishment of great public interest; he would ask them to consider the object for which it was instituted, and then to decide if it were expedient that this college should be allowed to remain in its present state? He should say but very few words with regard to the state of education of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland before the foundation of Maynooth in 1795. By a series of statutes the Irish Government had first prohibited the domestic education of the Roman Catholics both lay and clerical; and when candidates for orders were consequently obliged to be sent to other countries, the Legislature again and barbarously interposed, rendering foreign education penal likewise. Thus many serious evils were produced, for which the Irish Government was responsible. As the result of such Acts of Parliament, foreign countries were made attentive to the many advantages which this unnatural state of things held out to them; and as appeared from Papers laid before the House, a provision for the education of nearly 500 Roman Catholic

847
Ecclesiastics was made prior to 1795 in various foreign countries throughout Europe. Those Papers had been laid before Parliament when the noble Duke opposite was Chief Secretary for Ireland, and they showed that before 1795 there were two considerable Colleges established for this purpose at Paris, and one at each of the following places,—Nantes, Bordeaux, St. Omer, Lisle, Antwerp, Salamanca, Douay, Rome, and Lisbon; and that there were endowments provided by various European states for no fewer than 478 scholars and twenty-seven teachers. Many such establishments were gratuitous, and were partly founded by the wise munificence of different sovereigns; the Sovereign of England prohibiting the very education which Foreign Powers so sedulously encouraged; the Kings of France and Spain, and many other Foreign Potentates, founded Colleges, at which the education was applicable to a class considered as poor scholars, while the richer Roman Catholics in this country formed what were called bourses or scholarships, by which students could be educated abroad gratuitously. The education thus given was for the most part, gratuitous, and chiefly applicable only to that class—the poorer class, from which it had been argued that Roman Catholic Clergymen were too exclusively selected. He was quite ready to admit that many of the Irish priesthood, who were educated abroad before the Revolution, returned to Ireland men of very enlightened minds, of liberal character, of great accomplishments and learning, and that on obtaining benefices in their own country they were justly to be regarded as eminent ornaments to the Church to which they belonged, and a great addition to the society of which they formed a part. He was aware it might thence be argued that a similar result would now be apparent, as a consequence of foreign education, and that they would probably see a superior class of Clergy introduced into Ireland, if that country were left without means of a domestic Education. But, with some knowledge of clergymen educated at home and abroad, he ventured to doubt that the same result would now follow a Continental Education that attended it before the French Revolution. At that time the Irish Clergy were received on the Continent into the highest families; men were chosen from amongst them to act as Chaplains to the noblest families,
848
even to the Royal Family itself; they, in fact, from their piety and virtue obtained and deserved a preference over the Clergy of the countries in which they resided. As a strong illustration of this interesting fact, he might remind the House that the ecclesiastic who attended Louis XVI. in his last moments was a distinguished Irishman—the Abbé Edgeworth. But these advantages were no longer open to the Irish priesthood, who were now educated abroad under very different circumstances, and between whom and those educated at home there was no very traceable superiority. It was a mistake to imagine that political excitement was peculiar to the Maynooth priests. Without mentioning names, he might observe that a Roman Catholic Bishop, who had been frequently adverted to in no very favourable terms in their Lordships' House for his political vehemence, had been educated in France and other parts of the Continent. Foreign education, therefore, ought not to be relied on as the means by which the Irish priesthood could be educated so as to confer the greatest advantages on the Irish people. No one had considered this question more deeply than Mr. Leslie Foster. He had so considered it without any Roman Catholic predilections. He was one of the Commissioners who had conducted a protracted and laborious investigation as to the whole internal management and discipline, and, to a certain extent, the doctrines of Maynooth College; and, opposed though he was to the Catholic Question, he entirely approved of that Institution as a substitution for St. Omer and other Colleges on the Continent, He (Lord Monteagle) wished the House to bear in mind that one of the characteristics which distinguished Mr. Grattan in his attachment to his native country, was the horror he ever felt with regard to any political connection between Ireland and foreign countries, and, above all, between Ireland and France; therefore he (Mr. Grattan) always warned the House of Commons and the Government to withdraw the young Ecclesiastics from the Continent, by providing them with a proper education at home. The same opinion had been held by the highest authorities among the Irish ecclesiastics themselves and was indicated to be a sound one by the counter-movement of one who was not indifferent to the advantages he might gain by establishing an interest in

849
Ireland—he meant the Emperor Napoleon. In France, the establishments which were instituted for that purpose were destroyed during the Revolution, but they still existed in Spain and Portugal. He (Napoleon) made the students there most munificent offers if they would quit the Peninsula and accept educational establishments in France. The answer that was given was one befitting the loyalty of British subjects. The answer given was, that the Irish students would not accept such offers, nor receive education tendered to them by a Sovereign who was at war with Britain. The Roman Catholic Bishops carried the matter further, and issued an Ecclesiastical document, forewarning Ecclesiastical students, that if any student accepted the offer of Napoleon all ordination—all support—all maintenance—all Ecclesiastical promotion should be withheld and refused. He wished to impress these facts upon their Lordships, for the purpose of removing from their minds the supposition that foreign education was a good, or could be taken as a boon. Foreign education—as Grattan said—might make the students Deists in religion, or if not Deists in religion, anti-British and Papistical in politics; but certainly not good Catholics or good priests for instructing the people of Ireland. The foundation of Maynooth took place in 1795, under no mean auspices. Mr. Pitt was its founder; he acted on the suggestion of Edmund Burke, and an Irish Roman Catholic prelate, Dr. Hussey, was the first President. It had been said, plausibly enough, that there was something narrow and monastic, too bigotted and exclusive, in an establishment which gave only an ecclesiastical education; and it had been asked, too, why confine this education exclusively to Roman Catholics? The first application made to Parliament by the Roman Catholics of Ireland for the endowment of this College did not contemplate exclusiveness, but prayed that the College might be open to Protestants as well as to Catholics. The Irish House of Commons answered that prayer, undoubtedly, by endowing the College, but they accompanied the endowment with a direct prohibition, by statute, against receiving any Protestant within its walls, or the child of any Protestant. He was not arguing whether such restriction was right or wrong, but he said it was not fair to stigmatize the institution on ac-
850
count of its exclusive character, when of that very exclusiveness they themselves were the authors. When the College was first founded it was not confined to ecclesiastical education; there was a lay college attached, and many laymen did receive their education in that college; among others, he believed was to be found an hon. Gentleman now a Member of the House of Commons—Mr. Corbally. But in 1801 or 1802 Mr. Abbott, the late Lord Colchester, then Secretary for Ireland, complained of that lay education as a diversion of the funds allowed by Parliament. As to the charge that the College was too exclusively ecclesiastic, not all who were educated there took the priestly office, though it was the general road to it. It was supported by Lord Castlereagh. The connection of the late Mr. Alexander Knox with Maynooth was a strong argument of his approval of that Establishment, because nobody who knew that Gentleman could think pecuniary considerations alone would induce him to be associated with an institution he condemned. He continued up to his death the agent for Maynooth, and the medium of communication between the College and the Government. During the existence of that College, during somewhat more than half a century, its proceedings had not remained unnoticed by Parliament, or unanimadverted upon. No public establishment had been more strictly scrutinized. During the Whig Government of 1807 an increase was made in the grant. That increase was much questioned. The succeeding Government of the noble Duke applied to the authorities, of the College to know upon what grounds the grant had been increased, and why it should be continued at the increased rate. That letter contained minute and acute queries upon various points, and on these returns, for the most part, he now founded the motion with which he intended to conclude. The letter was written by Sir Arthur Wellesley, and it was as follows:—
"With the view to ascertain the grounds on which the application was made in the last Session for an increase of the grant to the College of Maynooth, and whether any grounds exist to require an extension of the Establishment at Maynooth, and to justify the continuance of the additional grant from Parliament, I have been directed to require answers to the enclosed queries.
"I have the honour to be, &c. "ARTHUR WLLLESLEY."

851
Even at that period, then, the noble Duke's purpose of inquiry was to ascertain what justification there was for an increased grant; and there was nothing in his letter holding out the slightest intention of withholding it. He would undertake to show grounds, now existing, for altering the course previously pursued towards that establishment, and, therefore, without calling upon the noble Duke to admit any principle whatsoever not laid down in his original correspondence, he would ask him to give due weight to facts he was about to state. In 1813 Mr. Ryder examined into the condition of Maynooth. Again, in 1817, further Papers with respect to the course of study and system of education pursued there were called for and produced. During the Government of Lord Wellesley reports having been circulated that disaffection and a dangerous spirit of combination had been introduced among the students, the trustees applied to the Lord Lieutenant to send down a special visitor; this request was not granted, the usual visitation being near at hand; and when that visitation occurred, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland attended, and after investigating the matter informed the trustees that there was not a shadow of ground for the calumnious imputation. In 1826 a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into all educational establishments in Ireland, and made a searching investigation into the system of Maynooth. The grant had been annually renewed, after all these inquiries had been made by various Governments; it had never been withdrawn, and he did not think that any one in office under the Crown had any intention or desire to withdraw it. But, though he did not apprehend that any considerable number of persons in this country, or any persons in authority, had such a desire, he feared that from ignorance of the facts of the case, there might be some indisposition to deal with this establishment in a proper manner by making a larger extension of liberality towards it. There were about 500 ecclesiastical students; 250 had been supported by Parliament by an annual vote of about 9,000 l. a year, which amount remained unaltered with one trifling variation, an increase of 700 l., whilst almost every other Irish vote had increased. What did their Lordships think was the amount munificently given for the purpose of educating men for the
852
sacred ministry of their own faith? The utmost sum given by Parliament, for the education of each priest, and including commons, fuel, and candles, was 23 l. a-year! Their Lordships paid their lowest menial servants more than this wretched pittance, besides allowing clothing and other advantages. Yet too many men turned round and expressed surprise that the priesthood of Ireland were not of a higher class, that they were not superior persons, and better educated! Parliament thought it performed its duty by allowing 23 l. per annum for the education of a priest! But sometimes this paltry sum was not given; the demands were so great for an increased number of clergy, that even this sum was divided between two students. If Parliament undertook to educate a priesthood competent to become the instructors of the people, and if it performed the task inefficiently it was almost as much an insult as a boon. The demand for Roman Catholic priests in Ireland was so great and so rapid in its increase, that as Dr. Crotty stated, they were often obliged to dismiss students before their education was completed. One of the causes of this was, and a cause which redounded to the honour of the Roman Catholic priesthood—the readiness with which they exposed themselves to risks, and the toil they freely underwent in the performance of their duties among the people. In one year in the county of Kerry ten Roman Catholic priests were carried off by typhus fever, caught whilst engaged in their duties. In the diocese of Clogher upwards of twenty Roman Catholic priests had died of fever in one year. He wished the Members of Her Majesty's Government, he wished those who had to decide this Question, would but visit Maynooth, and examine the building, and ask themselves whether it was physically possible to give the average number of students within the walls of that establishment an education fit for the ecclesiastics of any Christian sect or country whatever? Three persons were at times compelled to occupy one room; everything was out of repair and in a state of dilapidation. Did Parliament wish to improve the habits of the Irish people? Ought they not then to improve the habits of that clergy, who during seven years were pent up in the incomplete establishment of Maynooth? Dr. Murray had stated the building was in-

853
complete, and the students too numerous for the accommodation it afforded. Dr. Crotty made a similar statement. The place was poverty-stricken; it was without the proper appliances for the use of the tutors and lecturers. It had been stated in evidence that one professor had to transcribe their course of lectures, and another to dictate, in consequence of their being without the means of procuring sufficient books. He would ask their Lordships if this state of things ought to be continued? No doubt the noble Duke came to an accurate conclusion at the time he made the inquiry; but there was conclusive evidence that a different opinion now be formed. At the foundation of Maynooth the population of Ireland was 4,500,000; at the time the noble Duke made his inquiries it did not amount to 5,500,000; at present it was 8,100,000; and the great increase unquestionably had been on the part of the Roman Catholics. He was the last person to say a word which could be interpreted as giving a preference over his own, to a religion from which he entirely dissented. But at the same time he would say there was a greater necessity for an increased number of clergymen of the Roman Catholic persuasion than for those of the Church of England, because the personal labours of the Catholic priest were much more unremitting than those of his Protestant brother: they were incessant in Ireland. In Maynooth there ought to be a scientific and literary education, as well as a theological one; but they had no apparatus; they had no adequate supply of books; they had no means of conveying to the students that knowledge which was received elsewhere, and which students educated for the priesthood ought to get. Whether they were dealing with Catholics or Protestants, the duty was the same. The Christian instructors of both faiths should have the benefit of the best and most enlarged education. If a preference were to be given, on grounds of mere expediency, it should be given to those belonging to the religion of the majority of the people. To anticipate an objection, which had been as frequently, as it was ignorantly made, he would mention that it was a rule that every ecclesiastical student, on entering the College, should be provided with a Bible, and that College, notwithstanding its poverty, had at one time supplied its inmates with 300 Bibles,
854
and the Roman Catholic ecclesiastics at the same time had taken measures to reduce the price of the Bible for general distribution from two guineas and a half to 14 s., the present price; they had omitted also every comment and note of an acrimonious nature and which could be, with truth, considered offensive to their Protestant brethren. In a very clever book upon Ireland, published anonymously this year, he found a description of Maynooth so thoroughly graphic, that he would beg to read it to their Lordships:—
"An accurate description of Maynooth would be of necessity so disagreeable, that it is best to pass over it in a few words. An Irish Union-house is a palace to it. Ruin so needless, filth so disgusting, such a look of lazy squalor, no Englishman who has not seen it can conceive. Lecture-room and dining-hall, kitchen and students rooms are all the same. Why should the place be so shamefully ruinous and foully dirty?"
Such was the Parliamentary Establishment for educating the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland. Now, Parliament could do much to remedy the state of things he had described, and this without much difficulty—nay, with the greatest facility; and he, therefore, entreated their Lordships and the Government to give the subject their most serious attention. He was convinced, that if an enlarged and liberal view were taken of this question, Parliament could, by acting liberally towards Maynooth, do more quietly and unostentatiously to promote the general improvement of Ireland than by many of the means which were loudly insisted upon by declaimers; indeed, this was no popular grievance; many of those who took the most vehement tone in agitating the people of Ireland, did not urge the Government to continue the grant to Maynooth at all; but the quieter and better disposed desired to see the Roman Catholic ecclesiastics enjoying the best and most comprehensive, and most liberal education which it was practicable to give them, so that they might be placed on a level with the higher ranks of the community around them, and thus be admitted to the companionship of the country gentlemen and resident nobility, of both denominations, and of the Protestant clergy themselves, by having their condition improved, their minds liberalized, and being thus rendered, what they ought to be, not only the spiritual but the intellectual guides

855
of the people. The present was just the moment, when the Government, after taking strong measures to enforce their own opinions, and to put down views adverse to their own, the preseut was the moment when they could most favourably introduce measures really tending to improve the character and condition of the Irish people. A measure of the kind he had now proposed would, above all others, have the highly beneficial effect of showing the people of that country that Parliament and the Government sympathized with them on a subject, upon which it had hitherto been considered that Government was either apathetic, most unwilling, or most adverse. The Government might thus show that they truly desired to promote, at once the spiritual and the temporal advancement of the people. The establishment of Maynooth ought immediately to be placed upon a higher footing, so as to fit it for the reception and education of the better classes. As it was, it was hardly to be expected that children, who had been brought up in a happy and comfortable and respectable home, would willingly be sent to such an establishment as he had shown this to be. The Roman Catholic bishops took the greatest pains to raise the character of the institution, but they possibly could not overcome the great difficulties which impeded their wise and benevolent object. What said Dr. Crotty on this subject, in his evidence in 1826?
"I know that the Roman Catholic bishops are always anxious to procure young men of the most decent families to be members of Maynooth; but I know likewise, in the present state of the country, it would be impossible to find a sufficient number of that description to supply the wants of the Roman Catholic Ministers. The labours of a Roman Catholic clergyman are greater than the public at large are aware of; they are frequently exposed to the most imminent danger of losing their lives in going out at night and visiting the most wretched hovels of the peasantry, where nothing is to be found but misery and contagious disorder, there is no temporal inducement for the children of the higher classes to become Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics in Ireland."
A more liberal treatment should be introduced, scientific and liberal education superadded, the professors adequately supported, and proper appliances for instruction in each branch of knowledge be supplied. There should be competition in various classes of composition, the best
856
specimens of which should be sent forth for the suffrage of the public; and, in the absence of fellowships and tutorships, small prizes of the nature of exhibitions should be awarded to the more meritorious students, on which, for three or four years, they might be able to maintain themselves after leaving the colleges and until they had obtained employment. This might be done for a very small sum; even 800 l. a-year would produce a great deal of good in this way. As to the building itself it should be put into proper repair, and be placed permanently under the care of the Board of Works, to be upheld in the same way as other public edifices. The best proof of the present penury of the institution which he could give was this, that last year they were in such distress that, in default of the means of supporting the students there, they were obliged to continue their vacation for a period of several continuous months. It might be suggested that his object was to secularize the Roman Catholic Clergy, and thereby to render them less effective in their spiritual character; but nothing could be more to reign from his views; nothing could be more mischievous, his whole argument went simply to prove the necessity of making them more enlightened, and in making them more enlightened, to render them better ministers of religion, better spiritual, because also better intellectual, guides of the people. That respected Prelate the late Dr. Baines, and the learned and excellent Bishop Wiseman were not less admirable as ecclesiastics, because they were two of the most accomplished scholars of Europe. Was Bossuet less energetic, as a defender of his Church because he emulated the masters of ancient eloquence. By improving the condition and character of this College, the Government and Parliament would operate beneficially upon the most important class of persons in Ireland; that class which had it in its power to be the agents of more moral good than any other class there. Get the hearts and feelings of the Roman Catholic Clergy with you, and they would become your fellow-labourers in all good works, and you would soon effect vast benefits for Ireland. There ought to be no difficulty of a pecuniary nature which should prevent Government from taking the desired course with reference to Maynooth. In the thirty years which followed the Union, upwards of 700,000 l, had been

857
expended by the Government on the Charter Schools, which their own Commissioners had altogether condemned. Another sum of 780,000 l. had been expended on the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, which had been voted a nuisance, and abolished accordingly. The sums which had been assigned for these two purposes, showed that towards an object which was deemed, however erroneously, to be beneficial, the Government of this country was quite willing to display its liberality, He trusted that its liberality, in every sense of the word, would be extended to the institution to which he had now called their Lordships' attention. The noble Lord concluded with moving for certain Papers relative to the Roman Catholic College of Maynooth.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas not at all surprised at the noble Lord's having called their attention to this subject; it was one of very great interest undoubtedly, but he must say he regretted that, instead of entering so deeply as he had done into the subject now, the noble Lord had not adopted the proposition which he (the Duke of Wellington) submitted to the noble Marquess opposite on the subject, on Thursday last, and delayed making his statement until the Papers were before the House. The reason why, on Thursday last, he had requested this motion to he postponed from the Friday till the Tuesday following, was, that he desired an opportunity of looking over the voluminous information now before Parliament. He had no sort of objection to give the papers moved for, but he wished, as he had just said, that any discussion on the subject had been postponed until they were actually before the House. He had since Thursday endeavoured to collect all the information he could on the subject, but certainly the noble Lord had now stated many facts of which he was entirely ignorant. He certainly had not been aware of the state of things described. The statements made on this occasion by the noble Lord were perfectly correct, as appeared from the records already on their Lordships' Table. He did not exactly recollect the letter which the noble Lord had read, which was signed by him more than thirty-five or forty years ago, but he must undoubtedly have acted by order of the Government of the time, and must have reported to the Government the answer which he received to the communi-
858
cation. He did not recollect what the grievances referred to were, but he did recollect the question respecting an augmentation of the grant, and that a determination was arrived at to reduce it to the amount at which it was before, and so the grant continued till, he thought, the year 1812, when it was augmented on the score of building, by 7,000 l. or something of that kind. Doubtless, there could he no subject more interesting than this could be to the House of Lords. This was an institution formed by the Irish Parliament in 1795; the Act was amended by another Act in 1800, before the Union, so that the institution was entirely formed by the Irish Parliament before the Union. The Act of 1800, indeed, was amended by the Imperial Parliament in 1808, but, he would repeat the institution itself was entirely formed of the Irish Parliament, and came to their Lordships altogether as from that body. As he had said before, he did wish this discussion had been postponed until they should have had all the information which it was intended they should have, in consequence of the production of these Papers upon their Lordships Table. He had no objection to produce the Papers, but he should only be deceiving their Lordships, if he did not say that he stated this without conveying any present intention on the part of the Government to make any alteration in this grant. Undoubtedly the Government must take the whole subject into their consideration, though, he would repeat, there was no intention that any alteration should be made in the grant. If such an intention, however, were to be entertained, it would be announced in the first instance in that quarter where the grant must originate. He trusted he might be excused from going further into the subject now; he fully admitted the statement of the noble Lord to be a most important one, and he could promise that all the facts the noble Lord had set forth should be taken into mature consideration.
The Marquess of Lansdownecould not allow this discussion to close without expressing his feeling that Ireland was greatly indebted to his noble Friend for having called the attention of their Lordships, thus fully and thus ably to a most important subject. The noble Duke seemed to think it would have been better to postpone the statement until the promised Papers were before the House; but

859
he (the Marquess of Lansdowne), with the information already before Parliament, did not think that any new facts which could be elicited, would in any degree interfere with those general views of policy which his noble Friend had taken an early opportunity that Session of inculcating, with a view, which his noble Friend would not disclaim, of calling the attention of Parliament to the subject at a period when they might be enabled either to legislate, if legislation were deemed advisable, or to add, under the sanction of Government, to the amount of the Vote now yearly proposed. He considered that his noble Friend was quite justified in anticipating that the Government would be by this time fully prepared for the consideration of the subject. For this was no new subject. Year after year it had been pressed on the consideration of the Government, in various forms. In the very last year it had been pressed on the Government, which professed itself ready to give it the consideration which its importance merited. The Government which talked of educating the people, could not reasonably decline to take into its immediate and serious consideration the primary object of educating the educators. Parliament had a right to expect, that during the recess, the Government would have collected every available information, and have taken it into their mature consideration, so as to form some distinct opinion on the subject. Delay in deciding this question had been the besetting sin of all Governments for the last forty or fifty years; after the principle had been adopted by the Irish Parliament, and recognised by the English Parliament, the principle had never been applied practically in the way it ought to be applied,—to provide the most proper and fit instruments that could be provided for the education of the Catholics of Ireland, and adequate in point of ability and of number. It was notorious that the supply was not adequate to the necessity of the case. Owing to the great narrowness of the means at Maynooth, persons were sent out whether or not they were willing or qualified. The tendency of the narrowness of the institution was to disunite the Roman Catholic priesthood from the proprietors, instead of blending them as much as possible with them. They were, under various pretences, delaying from year to year the duty of endeavouring to induce the Ro-
860
man Catholic Clergy to blend heartily with the population at large. All those were considerations which he could not admit ought to be delayed for a moment. They had been too long delayed already. Their Lordships had plenty of information before them; the history of Maynooth was before them; the consequences of that history were before them; and the consequence of the negligence of Parliament and of the Government upon the subject was before them. He did think, unless the House was prepared to take the course which he was sure the noble Duke would not recommend—of destroying that establishment altogether, that Parliament was bound in justice to the Irish people to provide for the education of their Clergy; for if they would not renounce the establishment, they must take that which was the only other line open to them, and proceed to give it that ample and complete effect which alone could insure good and permanent consequences. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) therefore did think, that the public should not only be obliged to his noble Friend near him for calling the attention of the Government to this subject, but that the public was more particularly indebted to him for bringing the matter forward at this early period of the Session. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was convinced that the discussion, such as it had been, could have but one effect—that of throwing upon Her Majesty's Government the responsibility of omitting to effect that reform in the establishment which they had been discussing—a reform which circumstances for years had called for, but never so imperiously as they did at this moment.
Lord Monteagleshortly replied, and the Motion was put and agreed to.
House adjourned.