Lords Sitting of 5 March 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—Received the Royal Assent.—Actions for Penalties on Gaming Discontinuing; Offences at Sea; Metropolis Improvements.
Private.—1a. Lascar di's Naturalization; Spartali's Naturalization; Schuster's Naturalization.
Received the Royal Assent.—Sang's Naturalization.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Lord Chancellor, from Samuel Gray, for Inquiry.—From Denbigh, against Union of Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By the Earl of Yarborough, Lord Brougham, and the Earl of Devon, from Kilburn, and 11 places, against Alteration of the Corn Laws.—From Pockley, and 38 places, for Agricultural Protection.

TENURE OF LAND (IRELAND) COMMISSION.
The Marquess of Clanricarderose to put some questions to his noble Friend (the Earl of Devon) on the subject of what was generally known as the Landlord and Tenant Commission in Ireland, at the head of which his noble Friend was placed. He did not think that it would be necessary for him to make any Motion on the subject. He was anxious to know to what point the labours of the Commissioners were really directed. On the first occasion when his noble Friend addressed the House on the subject, he understood that the object of the Commission was to obtain information into all the existing relations between Landlord and Tenant. But he did not hear how far it was intended to institute any inquiry into the law as it affected the Tenure of Land. Since that time, a circular letter had appeared in the papers from the Secretary of the Commission in which it was stated, that although the Commissioners had no power to adjudicate upon questions between landlord and tenants, still, that with respect to any matter of contract between landlord and tenant, the Commissioners were ready to hear any particular cases, so far as they might tend to illustrate the practical effects produced under the operation of the existing law as regarded the whole subject. It was with reference to that point that he

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meant to submit a particular question. Since the time to which he alluded another question had been asked, in answer to which, his noble Friend was represented to have said that he was directing his attention, even while necessarily detained in this country, to an examination of the information which was already before both Houses of Parliament as to the Laws affecting the connection of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland. His noble Friend was further represented to have said, for he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was not present at the time, that it was proper to adopt that course, because it was necessary that the Commissioners should make themselves thoroughly acquainted with all the circumstances connected with the subject, and with the nature of the existing law, with reference to an alteration of which the responsibility of making suggestions might devolve on them. Now, their Lordships would see that the two answers were different; that they related to two different points;—not unconnected with each other indeed—both points of great importance, and involving matters demanding extensive consideration, and questions of considerable difficulty; but still the one differing from the other. He was much surprised that his noble Friend should have made such a statement; for he hardly knew how his noble Friend could hope to proceed satisfactorily through so extensive and varied a field of inquiry all at once. He must say—and he said it with all respect for the ability of the noble Earl and his Colleagues—that he should regret if they proceeded to a digest of the laws, or to recommend alteration of the laws on the subject of Real Property in Ireland, because it was a subject of great importance, and required the greatest legal knowledge. He might be told that nothing seriously affecting property would be attempted by the Commission. In that case, the Commission was, on the other hand, a delusion on the people; for there had been created in the public mind the most extraordinary and pernicious notions of what the Commission was to do and undo. A great cry had been raised in England as well as in Ireland respecting Fixity of Tenure, and he thought the appointment of this Commission had tended to keep up this cry. It was supposed, that they would proceed in such a manner as must necessarily lead to the reduction of rents. Why, every thinking man, every man of sense, must know, that if the landlord were to give up all
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claim to rent, and the tenants in possession were to have the land in fee, there would be no diminution of the general misery, and certainly no increase of the national wealth. The Commission had no power to alter the Law of Real Property; and when hopes were held out that by their intervention, the most extraordinary and the most beneficial effects must be produced, it was nothing but a mockery and a delusion. He conceived that the appointment of the Commission was worse than useless; and be thought so, because it kept alive in Ireland the erroneous notion that its labours would have the effect of immediately lowering rents, and that the most beneficial effects must speedily follow. He could imagine nothing more perfectly false or illusory. The appointment of the Commission had also propagated and kept up the idea that exorbitant rents, exacted by the landlords, rendered such a proceeding necessary. To those who were well acquainted with the subject, it was unnecessary to say, that a grosser error could scarcely be imagined. The consequence was, that the newspapers were filled with paragraphs of a most mischievous tendency. In illustration of this he might mention, that early last winter a paragraphs originated in a local Irish paper, and went the round of all the other papers, to the effect, that a noble Lord, a Friend of his, had lowered his rents 10 l. per cent., and the cry was, "Dear me, this arises from the Commission; see what good it has done!" A fortnight after another paragraph appeared, in which the writer expressed his deep regret at finding that the former report was wholly unfounded; and all parties combined in lamenting the circumstance. Why, one would have thought that to be consistent they ought to have rejoiced at it—they ought to have pointed at it as a proof that there was no necessity to lower the rents. Those who knew the noble Lord to whom he alluded—and he had that honour—knew that a better man or a more excellent landlord did not exist, or one that was further from endeavouring to exact exorbitant rents. But, unquestionably this Commission had had the effect of keeping up the notion in Ireland, that many of the ills of that country were to be traced to the grasping conduct of the landlords—that their labours would lower the rents, which was a delusion—and that, if the rents were lowered, the whole mass of the people would become prosperous. But the greatest objection

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perhaps, which he had to this Commission was, that it was pleaded in bar of all other measures for the improvement of Ireland. There never was a better opportunity than the present for the Imperial Parliament to turn its attention to Ireland, with the view of affording employment to the great mass of the population. Never was there a moment at which the Government could raise money for that purpose with more advantage than at the present time; and therefore he regretted exceedingly, that instead of adopting really beneficial measures, Ministers had contented themselves with the appointment of a Commission which was more calculated to do mischief than to effect good. One question he wished to ask his noble Friend was, whether the Commissioners contemplated any alteration of the laws which would affect leases or covenants between landlords and tenants entered into previous to the Commission? Another question was, whether the Commissioners intended to make a report upon the proportion which rent bears to the value of land in different parts of Ireland? It was exceedingly difficult to pronounce an opinion upon the question of rent; at the same time, as an Irish landlord, he should be glad if something were said upon that subject, because an opinion prevailed too generally that Irish landlords received exorbitant and disproportioned rents. Such an opinion had arisen from misapprehension with respect to various surveys and valuations which had been made in Ireland for particular purposes, and which, therefore, ought not to be taken as any authority for forming an opinion upon the question of rents, or the rate at which farms should be let. Another question which he should ask his noble Friend was, whether the Commissioners intended to report the whole of the evidence which might be offered? It was, of course, very easy to get up a case when one side only was heard. He was quite sure, however, that his noble Friend and his brother Commissioners would closely examine every case which might be brought before them; not with any view of determining upon the conduct of individuals, but entirely with the view of seeing how the present law permitted or enabled Oppression to be practised, or how grievances might be best redressed. But still that was a matter which, in a country like Ireland, ought to be dealt with with extreme delicacy; for, if landlords made statements against tenants and tenants against land-
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lords, and those statements were to be published, the Commission might go on to an interminable length of time without being able to come to any generally satisfactory conclusion. The greatest objection which he had to the Commission was, that it was pleaded in bar to every practical measure for improvement in Ireland, everything must wait until it was seen what the Commission said, but there never could be a better opportunity than the present for introducing these improvements. In that country there was a great population steeped in poverty and idleness—a state of things disgraceful, not to the landlords, but to the Imperial Government. There never was a better opportunity for the Imperial Government—and here he disclaimed all party allusions, he meant not to speak particularly of the present Government,—there never was a moment more advantageous for the Imperial Government to turn its attention to Ireland with a view of finding employment for a great mass of its population—employment or emigration. Of the deplorable condition of the vast mass of population there was ample evidence before their Lordships already, and they needed no more. At the present moment British capitalists did not know what to do with their money; but if Government would encourage them they would readily make advances for the purpose of improving Ireland, and there never was a time at which money could be obtained so easily for that purpose. At this time the greatest efforts ought to be made for the improvement of Ireland. Therefore it was that he regarded this Commission as a barrier to improvement. Besides that, it had given rise to exaggerated notions, which he wished to see dispelled. In some places in Ireland people thought the Commission would settle the question of rents; in others it was supposed that disputes about property would be settled. The questions he had to put were—firstly, whether the Commission contemplated an alteration of the law so as to effect leases and covenants entered into previous to the issuing of the Commission? Secondly, whether they contemplated a report as to the proportion of rent to the value of land? and, thirdly, whether they proposed to report the whole evidence taken before the Commission?
The Earl of Devonsaid, he felt quite assured that their Lordships would not expect him to answer the first two questions which had been put by the noble

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Marquess, who, upon reconsideration, would himself see that it would be unbecoming to do so in the present stage of a Commission which had been issued just about three months. The Commissioners were still busily engaged in pursuing their inquiry, and their Lordships must see that it would not be proper for him, standing alone in that House, to state what the intentions of the Commissioners were with respect to any particular part of the subject upon which they would hereafter have to report. He was ready, however, to give all possible information as to what they were doing in carrying out the instructions given to them, which he was enabled to do by means of certain documents which he held in his hand, and which had been in general circulation in Ireland for some time, so that, in fact, there could be little or no difficulty in ascertaining what course the Commissioners were pursuing. His noble Friend had spoken of the difficulty of the Commission in such a way as to make it appear to be a matter of greater difficulty than it really was. His noble Friend seemed to apprehend that it would become in some way, or that he had stated so, the duty of the Commission to investigate and revise the whole Law of Real Property in Ireland; and his noble Friend thought that he (the Earl of Devon) and his Colleagues were not the most competent persons to deal with such a subject. Why, the Commissioners had nothing to do with the general Law of Real Property; nor did they intend to take it in hand. The Commission entrusted to them was, to inquire "into the state of the Law and Practice in respect to the Occupation of Land in Ireland, and in respect also to the burthens of County Cess and other charges which fall respectively on the landlord and occupying tenant and for reporting as to the amendment, if any; of the existing laws, which, having due regard to the just rights of property, may be calculated to encourage the cultivation of the soil, to extend a better system of agriculture, and to improve the relation between landlord and tenant in that part of our United Kingdom. And further to report to us in writing, under your hands and seals, your observations as to what you shall find touching or concerning the premises upon the said inquiry; and also your opinions as to the amendment, if any, of the existing laws, which, having due regard to the just rights of property, may be calculated to encourage the cultivation of
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the soil, to extend a better system of agriculture, and to improve the relation between landlord and tenant in Ireland." That was certainly a field wide enough; but it was narrow compared with the investigation of the whole Law of Real Property in Ireland. His noble Friend thought also that the Commission was to inquire into the state of the labouring and peasant part of Ireland, as he called it. It was really the business of the Commission to inquire into the manner of holding lands, a subject particularly affecting tenant farmers, and therefore necessarily involving the classes immediately below them; but that was not the primary object of the Commission. According to the terms of the Commission, the Commissioners were directed to inquire into the laws affecting the temporary occupation of land, and also into the nature of the burthens on land, and the manner in which they were respectively borne by landlords and tenants. He might have been understood by the noble Marquess, perhaps, to convey the notion that the latter was the only object of the Commission; but what he meant was, that it was one part of the duty, and certainly not the whole. The following course the Commissioners had taken was in order to obtain the best information possible:—In the first place, immediately on their arrival in Dublin, he, as Chairman of the Board had caused the following circular letter to be sent to all the Boards of Guardians throughout Ireland, who were mostly landlords or occupying tenants, to each of the Protestant bishops, and to every Roman Catholic bishop,
"Land Commission-office, Castle,
Dublin, 184.
"I trouble you with this letter on the part of the Commissioners acting tinder the Queen's Commission of which a copy is herewith sent.
"It is very much our wish to obtain the best evidence upon all parts of the subject into which we are directed to inquire.
"We are desirous, therefore, of obtaining the co-operation of in this respect, and we request that you will do us the favour to point out such individuals as you may think it most desirable for us to examine, and will also point out to us any other sources from which you think that evidence of an authentic nature may be derived.
"If you can give your attention to this matter, and will comply with the request which we now make, you may render material assistance towards attaining the object of our Commission, viz:—a full and fair investigation

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of all circumstances connected with the tenure and occupation of land in Ireland.
"I have the honour to be, &c.
"Any communication may be addressed to the secretary at this office."
These circulars were answered in the very best spirit from all quarters, some pointing out many, and others but a few, persons competent to become witnesses. A great many representations were made to the Commissioners of cases of individual hardship; and those persons who took great interest in the grievances of the people had communicated with the Commissioners, and in a very good spirit, undertaking to furnish information. A great mass of papers was therefore collected together, and the Commissioners found that the number of witnesses suggested was so large that a selection must be made; and they therefore issued another circular letter to their former correspondents soliciting them to point out the persons who ought to be selected, being those who could be examined with the greatest convenience to themselves and advantage to the objects of the Commission. To the persons who had referred cases of hardship or dispute to the Commissioners a letter was sent reminding them that the Commission had no authority to settle differences between individuals.
"Land Commission Office, Dublin Castle,
"I am directed by the Commissioners to acknowledge the receipt of your communication of
"I am further instructed to remind you that they are not invested with any authority to settle differences which have arisen between individuals.
"Their duty is to make inquiry into the state of the law and the practice in Ireland, with respect to the occupation of land, and with respect to the burthens that affect the owners and occupiers of land respectively; and to consider whether some amendments may not be properly made in the existing laws which may tend to encourage the cultivation of the soil, to extend a better system of agriculture, and to improve the relation between landlord and tenant.
"So far as the investigation of particular cases may tend to assist them towards forming just conclusions upon the matters pointed out by the Commission for inquiry, it will be their duty to enter upon such investigation, although they have no power to make any adjudication as to the rights or claims of individuals.
"Your case will be fully considered, and if it shall appear to the Commissioners that their duty under the Commission requires a further inquiry into it, I shall be instructed to communicate again with you, and to point out the
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time and place at which an examination of witnesses upon oath may take place.
"I remain, your obedient servant,
"—, Secretary."
That had become necessary to counteract an impression that the Commissioners were sitting to settle grievances; at the same time, they felt they should not do their duty, but would be shutting the door too close if they told persons who imagined they had grievances to state that they were not to be heard. Their duty was to obtain all the information they could, in order to enable them to come to just conclusions upon the matters upon which they were expected to report. There was no more likely way to get an accurate view of the extent to which any of those complaints might be considered to be founded in justice, than by hearing the statements of parties on both sides; and experience had already shown that the number of real cases of grievance had fallen far short of the number which had been so busily bruited about in various ways. The Commission had also issued another circular letter in which the real objects of the Commission were pointed out, in order to disabuse the minds of those who fancied that it had other objects in view with which it could not interfere.
"Land Commission Office, Dublin Castle.
"I am directed to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the in answer to the communication addressed to you on the part of the Commissioners on the which will have informed you of the nature of their inquiries, and the assistance they expect from
"The Commissioners desire particularly to point out to you that their duty is to make inquiry into the state of the law, and the practice in Ireland with respect to the occupation of land, and with respect to the burthens that affect the owners and occupiers of land respectively; and to consider whether some amendments may not be properly made in the existing laws, which may tend to encourage the cultivation of tile soil, to extend a better system of agriculture, and to improve the relation between landlord and tenant.
"So far as the investigation of particular cases may tend to assist them towards just conclusions upon matters pointed out by the Commission for inquiry, it will be their duty to enter upon such investigation, although they have no power to make any adjudication as to the rights or claims of individuals, or to settle any differences which may have arisen between them.
"As the number of witnesses named to the Commissioners from different parts of Ireland is so great, as to render it impossible for them

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to examine all, within any reasonable limit as to time; and, as it is the intention of the Commissioners to append to their report to Her Majesty, as is usual in such cases, the whole of the evidence taken on oath before them; they must therefore request your further assistance towards the selection of those whose evidence can be given with most convenience to the parties themselves, and with the greatest advantage to the several objects of the inquiry.
"I shall have the honour to apprize you as soon as possible of the particular day on which the Commissioners hope to visit your neighbourhood.
"I have the honour to be
Your obedient Servant,
"—,Secretary."
No doubt the task of the Commissioners was a difficult one; but they were anxious to perform it properly, to obtain substantial information, and to avoid stirring up angry feelings between disputants. They made their inquiries with as much forbearance towards individuals as they could; but if they were to offer their opinion at any time with respect to particular grievances, they must be permitted to investigate individual cases. He believed that his four Colleagues were as anxious to perform their duty, and would perform it as ably and as honestly, as any four men that could be found; and he had great confidence in the result of their labours. His noble Friend had said that this Commission stood in the way of other measures of improvement for Ireland. How could that Commission prevent any Member of that House or of the other House of Parliament from proposing any measure of relief for the population of Ireland? There was nothing in the tendency of the Commission to interrupt such a proceeding. He thought the Commissioners would be able to point out beneficial alterations in the law affecting Landlord and Tenant, so as to remove present grounds of complaint and dispute. He had every reason to believe, that with the assistance of the four Gentlemen with whom he was associated, such a report would be produced as would be found most useful in the work of legislation. They would give the whole subject their full attention, and in doing so they would not fail to point out where in the present law was oppressive or ruinous in its practice; nor would they hesitate to state their honest convictions with regard to individual cases of hardship and real grievance. Upon the question of rents, also, they would be equally explicit and sincere, but at present, of course, he could not be expected to offer any opinion what-
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ever. He knew there had been a great deal of exaggeration abroad on this subject, but the best possible way to remove all misapprehension was to collect authentic information from witnesses upon oath, and then lay the evidence before Parliament and the public, in order that the real state of the case might be made known. He thought that the information which the Commission would be able to elicit would be very useful, and could not fail to lead to the most beneficial results.
The Marquess of Clanricardewished to know whether the reports of the cases which might come under the cognizance of the Commission would be made upon oath? [The Earl of Devon answered in the affirmative.] He knew that when the Commission was first appointed a cry was raised, that though it was instituted for the purpose of inquiring into the relation between Landlord and Tenant, it consisted of five landlords. He (the Marquess of Clanricarde) knew that cry to be without foundation in effect, yet if it were desired that the proceedings of the Commission should have weight out of doors, it might have been advantageous to have had both landlords and tenants upon it. When the term "peasant" was applied in Ireland, it properly comprised the occupiers of land; so that, he took it, an inquiry into the condition of the land, and into the relations between Landlord and Tenant, as far as the land was concerned, meant an inquiry into the condition of the peasantry of the country. He regretted his noble Friend had not thought it consistent with his duty to answer the first question which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had put to him.
Subject dropped. House adjourned.