Lords Sitting of 18 July 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—2a. Detatched Parts of Counties; Aliens; Art Unions; Butter and Cheese.
Reported.—Linen, etc. Manufactures (Ireland).
5a. and passed:—Customs Duties (Isle of Man).
Private.—1a. Gaspé Fishery and Coal Mining Company; Sir George Gervis's (or Pemberton's) Estate.
2a. Bishop of Down, Connor, and Dromore's Estate; Middle Level Drainage and Navigation; Paisley General Gas.
Reported. — Croydon and Epsom Railway; Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway; Harris's Estate; Passingham's Estate; The Bishop of London's Estate; Great Southern and Western Railway.
3a. and passed:—Wells Lighting and Improvement; Delabole and Rock Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Earl of Minto, from Kintyre, for Improving the Condition of Scotch Schoolmasters.—By Duke of Richmond, from South Stoneham, and a great number of other places, for Protection to Agriculture.—From Manchline, and Catrine, for Legalizing Marriages solemnized by Presbyterian and Dissenting Ministers in Ireland.—By Earl of Radnor, from Perth, against the Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) Bill.—From Middleton, against the Poor Law (Ireland) Bill.

ALIENS BILL.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, of which, originating in the other House, he had taken charge, he would state as shortly as he could the nature of this Bill. Their Lordships were, no doubt, aware that in all times the law of this country with respect to Aliens had been, that until they were naturalised by Act of Parliament, or denizened by letters of denization from the Crown, they were debarred from enjoying almost all the rights which belonged to British subjects. They could not hold any office, they could not sit in the House of Commons. They could not inherit or possess by purchase one single acre of real property, or chattels real which savoured of the reality, and to this had been added some other restrictions and regulations which he considered very discreditable and impolitic to the country. They could not, for instance, register themselves as owners of vessels, these were the common and ordinary disqualifications of Aliens—but there were also several Acts, passed at different times, imposing other restrictions. By the Act of Settlement, and again by an Act of George I, it was ordered that Parliament should include in all facts of naturalization a Clause prohibiting the holding of office and the sitting in Parliament. By subsequent Acts these regulations had been in some degree modified; the sons and grandsons of British subjects both abroad were declared to be British subjects; but still with respect to female issue, the old law remained in force. Another anomaly was this. If an Engglish woman married a foreigner, the issue would not be considered British subjects. According to this, a lady whom he had the pleasure of knowing, the Countess Flahaut, who was a Scotch Peeress in her own right, and who had married a foreigner, could not be succeeded in her property in this country by any son which
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she might have of her present marriage. And what was the consequence? Her property would not go to the next heir, but would go to the Crown. It was said that the object of the Aliens Act, was the apprehension that, upon the accession of a foreign family to the Throne, the offices in service of the Crown would be overrun with foreigners, and her destinies swayed by foreign influence in Parliament. With others, who desired to be naturalised, the expense was 100 l. on each individual, and the consequence was, that the average number of Naturalization Bills was not more than eight in the year. Now they would not allow a foreign artificer, who might come to this country, and who by his skill, might confer a benefit on it, to hold even the office of a petty constable, but directly a great case occurred, such as the marriage of Prince Leopold to the heiress presumptive to the British Crown, or the marriage of Prince Albert to Her present Majesty, the Standing Orders in both Houses were suspended, and a Naturalization Bill passed in the course of twenty-four hours. The conclusion to which the Committee of the House of Commons had come on this subject was, he believed, a correct one. The Bill enabled Aliens to be naturalized without the necessity of coming to Parliament, subject to a discretionary power vested in the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and on being naturalized they would enjoy all the privileges of natural born subjects, with the exception of the right to vote for Members of Parliament, an exception, however, the expediency of which he did not perceive. Aliens, on being naturalized, were to take a most minutely framed oath of allegiance. The Bill also enabled every person born out of Her Majesty's dominions of a British mother to enjoy all the rights of a natural born subject; and in Committee he should propose to add, that the foreign wives of British subjects should also be taken to be naturalized by their marriage ipso facto. There was one defect in the Bill, namely, that it had no compensation clauses; but these must be left to be added by the House of Commons, as their Lordships could not supply that deficiency. He now moved that their Lordships would allow the Bill to be now read a second time.
Bill read a second time.

ART-UNIONS BILL.
Lord Monteaglemoved the second reading of a Bill, to which he anticipated that no objection would be offered, namely, a Bill for the purpose of legalising Art-Unions—for on a former occasion, in introducing this Bill, he had stated in a few words the nature and objects of the Bill. These Art-Unions might be simply described as voluntary associations of individuals who contributed their money, with no interest of a pecuniary nature connected with the money subscribed to form a fund to be expended in the purchase of works of art, which were to be afterwards distributed among themselves by lot. These institutions had now for some years existed in this country. In 1835, a Parliamentary Committee sat to consider the subject of the promotion of the Fine Arts, and before this Committee were examined many persons of eminence, and amongst others, Dr. Waagen, who was so well known throughout Europe by his acquaintance with the fine arts. This gentleman stated, that so far back as 1825, Art Union Associations of this kind had existed in Prussia under the name of Kunstverein, and they had since been introduced into Hanover, Bavaria, and Wurtemburgh and other parts of the Continent; and it was upon the plan of these associations, that the Art Union of London was formed. Although at first they were coldly received, yet in no place had Art Unions made a greater progress than in this country since their establishment. The number of the subscribers had rapidly increased—from a few hundreds to 14,000—and the present contributions of the Art Unions of London for the purchase of works of art, amounted to a larger sum than was appropriated to the purpose by the munificence of Parliament. He believed that no less than 30,000 l. had been expended by these associations in the encouragement of art in this country during the past year. The illustrious Duke (the Duke of Cambridge) who was present in the House, was a patron of the Art Union of London—many Members of both Houses of Parliament—many of the learned Judges of the land and others, were members of it; and the number of members and subscribers altogether amounted to 13,612 persons. Now, it had been discovered that under the provisions of an Act of Parliament, every one of those persons was liable to the pains and penalties
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incident to a prosecution for belonging to that association. Now, it would be admitted that this was a state of things that ought not to be allowed to continue, and it was to provide a remedy that he introduced this Bill. Their Lordships had already given parties relief with respect to actions arising out of horse racing, as soon as they made out a case—but here was a case which much more strongly called for interference. This association had been formed under the opinion that it was legal, but it turned out that it came within the provisions of an existing Act of Parliament, and Government had given notice to the parties that they would be liable to penalties if they continued Members of this society. It was right that the Government should give this notice, for if they had not done so, all the evils incident to lotteries might, be revived under the colour of Art Unions, by connecting money and pictures as prizes to be drawn for. Therefore lotteries might have been revived under the colour of Art Unions, and for the benefit of speculators. The Bill which he proposed to remedy the present state of things consist of two provisions. The first provision had for its object the legalizing the past transactions of those Art Unions, those Unions existed at London, Dublin, Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, and in almost all the great towns of the country, this provision would give an indemnity with respect to all past transactions. The other provision would go to enact that in future a Royal charter of incorporation might be given to any of those Art Unions, or that the approval of the Board of Trade of the rules and regulations of any Art Union should be sufficient to legalize its practical operation. He could not avoid adding as he was desirous to place Art Unions under the direction of the Board of Trade, because at present all the schools of design in the country were under the control of that department. The Bill provided that from and after the 1st of January next the Board of Trade should be empowered to sanction the operation of any Art Union of the rules of which it approved. He hoped that their Lorships would consent to allow this Bill to be read a second time with the least possible delay. The subject had no political bearing, but it was intimately connected with the interests of an important and most respectable body—the artists of this country.

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The purchases for those Art Unions were generally made during the annual exhibitions, and for many years the artists had found these Art Unions to be their best customers. It would be a grievous disappointment to many of these individuals if this Bill was not carried. As this Bill might have some modification in the House of Commons, he did not ask their Lordships to pledge themselves to the words of the Bill—what he wished was, that the Bill might be read a second time, so that they would be able to give it full consideration, and secure its passing in the present Session.
Bill read a second time.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS ACT AMENDMENT BILL, and CREDITORS AND DEBTORS BILL.
The Lord Chancellorbrought up the Report from the Select Committee on those Bills. That the Committee had met and considered the said Bills, and examined witnesses in relation thereto, and have directed the first mentioned Bills to be reported, with Amendments; and are of opinion, that the said last mentioned Bill should not be proceeded with.
Lord Broughamsaid, that this Bill had the humane object of relieving from imprisonment for debt numbers of unfortunate persons who were now so confined, and, amongst others, those who were imprisoned under the orders of the 280 Courts of Request, or Small Debts Courts, whose sufferings were really enough to make one's hair stand on end—any thing so abhorrent as the treatment of these unhappy people could not be imagined to exist in a civilized country. His noble and learned Friend had introduced provisions in the Bill which practically abolished, without limitation, all imprisonment for debts not amounting to 20 l. There were other remedial provisions which tended substantially, although not in form, to abolish imprisonment in all cases in which it ought to be abolished, where there was no fraud, or pertinacity, or undue extravagance. As every day at this period of the Session was of importance, and as anything which would impede the passing of the Bill this Session involved the risk of detaining these persons in confinement during the long vacation, he hoped there would be no objection to forthwith referring the Report of the Select Committee to the Committee of the whole House, and he should move that
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the House should now resolve itself into Committee for that purpose.
Lord Campbellobjected to any step being taken in the absence of Lord Cottenham, who took a deep interest in the subject, and without notice to him.
After some conversation it was ordered that the Report should be printed, and that the House should go into Committee on the Bill to-morrow.

CLONMEL ENDOWED SCHOOL.
The Earl of Mountcashelproceeded to submit to their Lordships the Motion of which he had given notice, and in the outset disclaimed being actuated by any desire to deal in personalities, or to make reflections on any parties except those whose conduct was, in his apprehension, open to censure. The subject to which he wished to call the attention of their Lordships, had reference to the endowed school of Clonmel, and to the course adopted by the Commissioners appointed under the Act of the 53rd Geo. III. with respect to income derived from the lands belonging to that charity. This school was originally endowed by his ancestors, and it so happened that he was one of the trustees, and that his noble Friend the Marquess of Ormond was another of the trustees; but although the trustees had never violated their trust, the whole management of the charity had been taken out of their hands. What he complained of was, that the Commissioners to whom he alluded, and who had now the management of the lands connected with the charity, had not done what they were bound to do. He was prepared to satisfy their Lordships that the Commissioners had greatly transgressed the duty they were bound to perform, and if he succeeded in this he thought he would establish grounds to make them answerable for their conduct to Parliament. Now, his first charge against those Commissioners, the Commissioners under the Act of the 53rd Geo. III. was, that they had unlawfully usurped the Clonmel school lands. His second charge against them was, that they had not furnished correct accounts of all the instalments of the rents which they had received, and which ought to have been applied in liquidation of an advance of 4,000 l. made to the charity by the Government; and, thirdly, he charged them with having received two years' rents, amounting to 1,200 l., and although they had paid only

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100 l. to the schoolmaster, they had re fused to give the trustees any account of what had become of this money. These were the charges which he brought against the Commissioners, and he contended that they were bound to apply the rents which they received in reduction of the 4,000 l. advanced by the Government.
The Lord Chancellorthought, from the statement of the noble Earl, that this was a subject for inquiry in the Court of Chancery and not in their Lordships' House.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, that he meant no reflection on the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, but being a member of the Board of Education the trustees did not think it would be right to appeal to him.
The Lord Chancellor: Well, then, why not go to the Master of the Rolls.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, that the Master of the Rolls stood in the same situation, and this rendered it necessary that their Lordships should interfere.
Lord Wharncliffedid not think the House of Lords could do anything in such a case.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, if their Lordships would only allow him, he would show cause against all objections to his Motion.
Lord Wharncliffedid not mean to say that the statements of the noble Lord were wrong, but he would put it to the noble Earl whether it was worth his while to go on with his speech when it was clear their Lordships could not interfere in that which seemed to be a disputed question of right between the trustees of this school and the Board of Education in Ireland.
The Earl of Mountcashelthought he should be able to show to their Lordships that there were grounds which would justify their interference. He had already said that the Commissioners had rendered no account of the rents which they had received, or in reference to the 4,000 l. advanced by the Government, and even by their own Report it appeared that there was a sum of 240 l. for which they had not accounted. Not only had the Commissioners refused to give any account to the trustees, but they had acted oppressively towards the master of the school; and as the trustees had never neglected their duty, he thought the management of the property belonging to the school should not have been withdrawn from them.
The Duke of Wellingtonwished to know what the Motion was which the noble Earl meant to make.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, that if the noble Duke would undertake to have the subject inquired into, he would withdraw his Motion.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas understood to decline giving any promise.
The Earl of Mountcashelthen moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the endowment of the School of Clonmel.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the Notice on the Paper was for a Committee to inquire into the subject generally of Education in Ireland.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that having seen the Motion as it stood on the Paper, he had made inquiry on the subject, but no one connected with the Irish Government seemed to know anything about it. If his noble Friend would allow him to offer a recommendation, he would say that the best way would be for his noble Friend to draw up a statement and forward it either to the Lord Lieutenant or Lord Eliot, and then he would get some answer. In this way the Board of Education would be called on to defend themselves, and no doubt would explain their conduct, whether to the satisfaction of his noble Friend or not he could not determine; but, at all events, even if their Lordships could interfere, it would be preposterous to appoint such a Committee at this period of the Session.
The Earl of Glengallsaid, that he was aware of the whole case, and knew the master of the school in question, who was a most respectable clergyman. He would advise his noble Friend to withdraw his Motion and adopt the suggestion which had been thrown out.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, he must join in the recommendation which had been given to the noble Earl. If this case got into Chancery, it was possible it might come before their Lordships' House, and that was an additional reason why their Lordships should not agree to the Motion of the noble Earl. Although the Lord Chancellor of Leland might be a member of the Board of Education, that was no reason why he should not deal out impartial justice.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, he had guarded himself from casting any imputation on the Lord Chancellor of Ireland,

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for whom he entertained the utmost respect, but on principle he must object to any one being a judge in his own case. In a Bill recently before the House, relating to Irish charities the name of the Lord Chancellor was expressly omitted, on the ground which he had stated.
The Duke of Wellington: Well, you can move an Amendment to that Bill.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, he only mentioned the case of that Bill as a proof that the principle on which the trustees refused to appeal to the Court of Chancery was right. He also thought that a Chancery suit was not likely to contribute to the means of usefulness of a charity.
The Duke of Wellington: My Lords, this seems to me to be a case that ought to be brought before the Court of Chancery in Ireland, because, from what I can gather from the noble Earl, it seems to me that what he complains of is a breach of trust. It is somewhat difficult to understand the questions to which the noble Earl has called on your Lordships to attend. The Board of Education in Ireland is composed of some of the first persons in that country, and the Commissioners are also persons of the utmost respectability, and whether the complaint of the noble Earl is directed against one or the other of these parties it does not appear to me that your Lordships can interfere. His proper course is to make his complaint to the Executive Government of Ireland, to either the Lord Lieutenant or the Secretary of State, and if he adopts that course no doubt whatever statements he may make will be taken into consideration, and the Commissioners will be required to answer them. If the result of such a course shall not prove satisfactory to the noble Earl, why he will have gained the advantage that Parliament will be in possession of the whole case, and enabled to deal with it accordingly. If the noble Earl does not take this course, I hope your Lordships will negative his Motion.
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, that he never meant to make any charge against any one except the Commissioners.
Motion negatived without a division.
House adjourned.