Lords Sitting of 5 February 1844

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Earl of Chesterfield. Public.—1a. Teachers of Schools (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Powis, from Morton, Llanddoget, and Bath Lay Church Association, against Union of Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By the Duke of Richmond, from Morpeth Union, for Alteration in the Poor-laws.

ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Lord Chancellorreported Her Majesty's gracious answer to the Address:—

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Mr LORDS,
I thank you for this loyal and dutiful Address.
It is the first Object of My Wishes to promote the Welfare of my People; and I rely with Confidence on the Assurance of your Support in framing such Measures as the Interest of the Country may require.

ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Broughamwished to ask his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether it was in his power, consistently with his public duty, to give him any information on a subject of very great and general interest. A great deal of uneasiness and anxiety had been excited amongst persons who wished for the abolition of the Slave Trade, in consequence of some reports respecting the course taken with reference to negotiations that were now going on relative to the treaties of 1833 and 1838, on the subject of the Right of Search. Pending any negotiations, he certainly did not wish to press for any information that it might be inconvenient to the public service for his noble Friend to communicate. Perhaps, however, his noble Friend would be kind enough to say a few words that might answer the purpose which he had in view, namely, to allay the anxiety which prevailed in the country upon this subject.
The Earl of Aberdeen: No doubt very great interest was felt upon this subject, for it was one of the greatest importance. For the part which his noble and learned Friend had taken, it was perfectly natural for him, and, perhaps, he might say, it was his duty, to put the question which he was now about to answer. It was perfectly true that the French Government had desired that some modification might be introduced into the treaties establishing the Right of Search, which, without impairing their efficiency, might render them more conformable to the views of the French public and of the French naval service. It was not for him to say what might be the result of these propositions, but his noble and learned Friend and the House might be assured that nothing would be done which could in any degree impair or cripple our exertions in the cause of humanity, or interfere with the great effect of those treaties. He must do the French Government the justice to believe that their object was the same as
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ours. He knew that the French ministers were as desirous of seeing the total abolition of the Slave Trade as my noble and learned Friend himself was; and with this belief and this knowledge, any propositions coming from them were at least entitled to receive the most ample and the most candid consideration. With respect to the question which his noble and learned Friend had asked, he must observe, that he had heard the same report, but at the same time he must add, in a manner tending to confirm and countenance the unfounded and calumnious representations that had been made on the other side of the water. It had been the habit of those persons, as their Lordships knew, to maintain that we cared very little for the abolition of the Slave Trade, and that our real object was the Right of Search, and that, by that right, we wished to disgrace and insult the French marine, and also to acquire certain information respecting French commerce, which would afterwards turn to our own advantage. Incredible as this appeared, it was both asserted and believed in France. Why the fact was, that we submitted five times as many vessels to the Right of Search as the French did, and we should have very useless persons indeed as our consuls abroad if we did not obtain from them better information respecting the commerce of France than we could expect to gain from the exercise of this Right of Search by our cruisers. In this country it certainly seemed that the Right of Search was spoken of as a great good and a great advantage. No doubt it was most valuable as one of the means of promoting the abolition of the Slave Trade; but for himself he must say, that so far from considering it as a good, he must look upon it as an evil—an evil only to be justified by the great object for which it had been established. Nothing else could justify the sacrifice which was made on the part of this country in submitting to the Right of Search—a right to which from the nature of our mercantile marine we submitted in a much greater degree than France or any other country. He was not disposed on the present occasion to say further what might be the result of our communication with France to which his noble and learned Friend had alluded, and, perhaps, the few words which he had now uttered would prove satisfactory both to him and to the House generally.
Lord Broughamsaid, he should be very unreasonable, if he did not at once express himself perfectly satisfied with the statement of his noble Friend. He must join with his noble Friend in giving credit to the French ministry for the most anxious desire to put an end to this most detestable and abominable traffic. There had gone an idea abroad among the honest and intelligent people of France (perhaps from some feeling of security of national honour), that this mode of putting down the Slave-trade was inconsistent with their national welfare and interests. His noble Friend had now given the most unanswerable refutation to any such notion; for, if we sought this Right of Search,
"——hanc veniam petimusque damusque vicissim,"
we conceded the right on our part. We have five or six ships searched for every single French vessel that was searched. We, consequently gave up much more than the French did, and yet we did not consider ourselves dishonoured by doing so. He entirely agreed with his noble Friend in thinking, that instead of the Right of Search being a desirable arrangement, or a good per se, some mode should be devised for repressing the Slave-Trade without it. In dealing with this question, one of his propositions was, that when England had entirely abolished her own Slave-trade, she had done nine parts in ten of what was her own duty, and that strictly speaking, whatever she did beyond that was in the nature of a work of supererogation. God forbid, however, that having washed their own hands of the stain, they should not, for the sake of humanity, and of Africa, seek to induce other nations to do the same. They must, however, never forget that; though they were philanthropists and statesmen, legislating for the welfare of Africa, they were also European and English statesmen, and that their primary object must now be the preservation of peace among the nations of Europe. They must not risk that first and greatest blessing for the sake of any work of supererogation. To do so, would be the most preposterous attempt that any great nation could lend itself to.

MILITARY FORCE IN IRELAND.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the noble Earl opposite (Earl Fitzwilliam) had given not-
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ice of his intention to move that evening for a return of the number of the forces in Ireland, and of the expense incurred in the fortification of barracks and other stations for troops in Ireland, at certain specified periods. He now rose to state that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Ministers to make any objection to the motion. He wished, at the present moment, that noble Lords should continue that forbearance from all discussion with reference to Ireland, which was shewn on Thursday last—from all discussion that could; operate in the least degree injuriously or unjustly towards any party whatever.
Earl Fitzwilliamassured the noble Duke that it was quite unnecessary for him to offer any suggestion to him to abstain from making any remarks contrary to the understanding acquiesced in by everybody in that House, in abstaining from all comment on the affairs of Ireland, which might be inconsistent with the state of mind which everybody desired to keep, during the time that the trials were going forward in that country. He was glad, that the noble Duke and Her Majesty's Ministers would not offer any opposition to his motion, as this would supersede the necessity of even the few observations he was about to make. The noble Earl then moved for—
"A return of the number of Her Majesty's forces in Ireland on the 1st day of January, April, July, and October, in each year, from the 1st of January, 1828, to the 1st of January, 1844, both inclusive; and also a return of the expense incurred in the fortification of barracks and other stations for troops in Ireland in the year 1843."
Ordered.

OPERATIONS IN CHINA—ADMIRAL SIR W. PARKER.
The Lord Chancellorstated to the House that he had received a letter from Admiral Sir W. Parker, acknowledging the Vote of Thanks of that House, for the gallant conduct of Her Majesty's naval force under his command engaged in the operations in China. His Lordship read the letter, as follows:—
"Her Majesty's Ship Cornwallis, at Hong Kong, June 15, 1843.
"My Lord,—I have had the high gratification of receiving and communicating to the naval forces under my command your Lordship's ,letter of the 25th of February, transmitting the distinguished honour conferred on

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Lieutenant-General Sir Hugh Gough, Bart., G. C. B., Commodore Sir Gordon Bremer, K.C.B., and myself, together with the officers and men of the combined forces of Her Majesty and those of the East India Company, lately serving under our orders, who, by the Resolutions passed in the House of Lords on the 14th of that month, arc included in the proud distinction of their Lordships' thanks and approbation for the services performed on the coast and inland waters of China.
"Permit me, on the part of the naval branch of the forces, to assure your Lordship of the grateful feelings with which we receive this most honourable testimonial of their Lordships' commendation; and with my respectful acknowledgments for the courtesy with which your Lordship has announced it,
"I have the honour to be, my Lord,
"With the highest consideration,
"Your most obedient,
"And very humble servant,
"W. PARKER, Vice-Admiral."
"To the Rt. Hon. The Lord High Chancellor."
The Earl of Mintotook that opportunity of expressing his regret that the time of the ratification of the treaty with China, had not been taken advantage of for the purpose of conferring some additional mark of Her Majesty's approbation on Sir Wm. Parker, in conformity with the honours bestowed upon the military commander-in-chief on that occasion. He was aware that there was no intention on the part of Her Majesty's Ministers to pass any slight on Sir W. Parker, or to show that they did not appreciate the services he bad rendered; but, at the same time, the same attention was not paid to the naval as to the military officer in command, and he regretted that the opportunity afforded by the completion of the treaty had not been made available.
The Earl of Haddingtonobserved, that the noble Earl had given him no intimation of any intention to make a statement, nor had he expected him to make any observations. He believed that it had been stated by the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) in that Speech which the navy would never forget, when he moved the vote of thanks to the naval and military commanders, and those who served under them in China, that the reason why the two rewards had not been bestowed at once upon Sir William Parker was, that it would have appeared to Sir H. Gough and the military as giving more than their share to the navy. The Ministers had no care but to do justice to both services.
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The noble Lord might well say that Her Majesty's Government duly appreciated the services of the navy upon that occasion. They were certainly most extraordinary. He did not advert merely to the gallantry displayed, that was a matter of course, and the navy had frequently shown it against more formidable enemies than the Chinese. But he knew that taking the large ships to the walls of Nankin, and it was so considered by the navy, was a very extraordinary performance indeed, and without it the warfare would have never been concluded in the way it had been. It would be in the recollection of the House, that Sir Hugh Gough had earned the Grand Cross of the Bath before Sir William Parker arrived in China. At the conclusion of their joint services, for their gallant, distinguished, and meritorious services, a baronetcy was awarded to Sir Hugh Gough, and the Grand Cross of the Bath was given to Sir William Parker. Sir William Parker had since been informed the reason why both rewards were not conferred upon him at one and the same time. He trusted that Sir William Parker was satisfied with the reason, and he was sure that be ought to be; and he was informed at the same time of the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bestow upon him the other honour. It would descend to his heirs equally, and would be as much connected with his services in China as if it had been given at once, and no injustice done to Sir H. Gough, by two rewards being awarded to the naval service at the same time. He remembered, and he recalled the attention of the noble Earl to the fact, that at the time of the former discussion, he had said it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to consider Sir W. Parker again, and that the noble Earl said across the Table, "Aye, when he hauls down his flag." Was he not right in his recollection?
The Earl of Mintodid not recollect this, but if the noble Earl so stated it must have been so.
The Earl of Haddington: It would have been unfair to Sir W. Parker to cut him short of his command, as his time had not expired. He could only say, that it was the desire of Her Majesty's Government to mark in every way that they could in a just manner, the gallant and distinguished services of this officer, and the high sense they entertained of his naval ability, particularly in taking the navy into the very

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heart of the country, and by these means rendering it most efficient.
The Earl of Mintohad only been attracted by the reading of Sir W. Parker's letter, to express his feeling that full justice had not been done to that officer, by making his reward less than that of Sir H. Gough. To be sure, the services of Sir H. Gough were divided into different acts, for the first of which he received the Grand Cross of the Bath, and for the second, a baronetcy; but, looking at the amount and nature of Sir W. Parker's services, they were not, in his opinion, of less value.
Lord Broughamhoped that he might interpose. He considered that the House could not do anything more unconstitutional than to discuss the right of the Crown to confer honours. The Crown was the fountain of honour. He did not deny that in cases of gross neglect, the House might interfere, otherwise it was the duty of both Houses to abstain from any expression upon the exercise of the right.
The Earl of Mintocould not submit to such a rebuke without saying one word. He was not urging the noble Earl to do anything which he was disinclined to do, or which the Crown disliked, but there was a feeling in the navy that Her Majesty's Government had not done all that they might do for a gallant officer, and for a service in which he (the Earl of Minto) took great interest. What he had done was done in that House every day without notice. He had complained, that Her Majesty's Government, in the exercise of their discretion, had not done all that might have been expected with regard to the gallant officer, and the service with which he was connected. There were many ways in which he might have brought this subject on in a regular form. He might have given notice of an Address to the Crown, praying Her Majesty to bestow some mark of her favour for these services, and he trusted, that what he had said might not have the effect of preventing the Government from granting whatever mark of approbation they might think proper.
The Earl of Haddingtontrusted that the discussion would have no such effect. He wished to remind the noble Earl, that Sir Hugh Gough's first services terminated at the heights of Canton, which it was supposed had put an end to the war. The war, however, broke out again. Sir W.
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Parker was then sent out to China. Sir H. Gough had received the order of the Grand Cross before that war broke out. The subsequent war was a second service on the part of Sir, Gough. With respect to the feelings of the navy, if they were dissatisfied with the conduct of the Admiralty to Sir W. Parker, who was continued in his command in those seas, he had only to say, that this was the first time that he had ever heard a word about it.

BETTING AND GAMBLING.
The Duke of Richmondmoved the second reading of the Bill to repeal Penalties on Horse-racing, &c.
Lord Broughamhad considered a good deal the framework of this bill, which was a most important one. He knew that great objection existed to this bill in several most respectable quarters, all founded on the general subject of gaming. There was no objection, however, to one part of this bill, and he, therefore, advised his noble Friend to restrict the enactments of his measure, which were at present too general. He recommended the noble Duke to withdraw the bill for the present, and introduce one which should have the effect of quashing the qui tam actions already brought upon the existing statutes upon payment of costs. By taking that step first, and by reconsidering the clauses of his present bill, his noble Friend would do everything that the occasion required.
The Bishop of Londonhoped, if the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord were adopted, and another bill were brought in upon this subject, it would be a very different bill to the present one. If, on the contrary, it should in any degree tend to do that which this bill did and must, effectually increase the evil of gambling, he should certainly give it his most decided opposition. Whatever contingent advantages might result from the promotion of manly sports and pastimes, if they were to be purchased at the expense of facilitating betting by the removal of legal restraints, he repeated he should feel bound to give them his determined opposition.
The Duke of Richmondcomplained, that the right rev. Prelate had hazarded an opinion with regard to this bill before an opportunity had been afforded him (the Duke of Richmond) of stating its object. His object was to destroy frau-

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dulent betting, and to restrict considerably all other betting. He objected to the right rev. Prelate's description going forth to the country, when the very object of his bill was the reverse. He was not, however, obstinate on this subject. He (the Duke of Richmond) did not bet himself, and he objected to a great deal of the betting which took place on the turf at present. Indeed, he believed that, if the system of betting was not checked, the turf would soon be deserted. His bill was intended to protect other manly sports. At present no one could play a game of cricket where the loser paid the expenses of the ground without rendering himself liable to a qui tam action. He happened to be one of those who wished to encourage manly sports; he thought them of great importance, and that they had been of late too much discouraged. He hoped that their Lordships and the other House of Parliament would, in all future enclosure bills, if not in separate bills for the purpose, set aside a portion of land near the large towns, to which the people might resort for manly amusement. It was better that they should do so than go to the beer-shops, where they became sullen and discontented—for all men, rich as well as poor, stood in need of amusement. It was this object which induced him to take up the question, and he believed that his bill would effect all that he said. He did not wish to put himself in opposition to his noble and learned Friend, he would postpone his bill for the present; but he hoped that the bill, which would get rid of the qui tam actions, would be allowed to go through as quickly as possible. He hoped that their Lordships would adopt at once a measure which would defeat the attempts of a set of scoundrels who had been turned off the turf during the last year for not paying the bets which they had lost. They had endeavoured to wrench acts of Parliament to their own purposes, not with the view to promote the public good, but to gratify their revenge and to fill their pockets. Desiring to act upon the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord, he would rather postpone the Order of the Day for the second reading of the bill before the House, and bring in another bill to prevent the mischief intended to be perpetrated by these qui tam actions. He hoped that none of their Lordships would suppose that he had any intention by this
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bill to increase or promote the practice of gambling.
Lord Broughamthought that it would be better that all the statutes relating to betting and gambling should be referred to a select committee. Those laws had two defects; in one direction they were too stringent and severe, and, as it always happened in such cases, in another they were too lax and too easily evaded. He wished to apply a remedy to such a state of things. Many of their Lordships might not be aware, and he himself, albeit a lawyer by profession, was not aware till that day, that some of the most exalted personages in the country were liable to prosecution at the suit of a common informer; and, if convicted, to be sent to, and imprisoned in the common gaol of the county in which the offence was committed for the space of twelve calendar months, for having engaged in a raffle, to which they might have given a guinea out of pure charity. He had no doubt that some of their Lordships might at that very moment be liable to a benefit of that description, and this circumstance was an illustration of his assertion that the laws with respect to gambling required to be looked into.
The Bishop of Londonthought, that the noble Duke had no greater cause of complaint against him than he had against his noble and learned Friend opposite. He had never for a moment imputed to the noble Duke any design to increase the evils, which he nevertheless thought this bill calculated to augment. The bill appeared to him to be a wholesale abrogation of the restraints on betting, and consequently calculated to increase that evil, and he had therefore desired to call the noble Duke's attention to it. If, however, the noble Duke should introduce any measure with a view to promote the moral and social improvement of the people, he hoped it would be such a measure as he could concur in. No person in the House more entirely concurred in the sentiments expressed by the noble Duke as to the expediency, and he would almost say duty, of providing manly recreations for the poor. He had always held the same language, and had laboured in every place where he had resided to provide means of rational amusement for the people. He held it to be especially incumbent upon them at the present time when they were about to continue the New

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Poor-law, and to place restraints upon the poor, which nothing but the necessity of the case could justify, to introduce also measures for their solace and relief. He only feared that the vast increase of building of late years would interpose an almost insurmountable difficulty in providing suitable places for the recreation of the people.
Lord Campbelltook nearly the same view of this subject as his noble and learned Friend. He thought that all these qui tam actions should be stopped quam primum. A bill for that purpose could be passed through the House without delay. With respect to the law itself, he must observe that indictments and penalties for putting down gaming never had succeeded, and never would succeed. Like the noble Duke, he would fain see manly sports encouraged; but he could not go so far as the noble Duke was prepared to go in his present bill, which made all bets lawful contracts, capable of being enforced in a court of law. A love of the sport ought to be a sufficient inducement to parties to engage in it without laying bets to be enforced in courts of law. If betting were to be allowed at such recreations, the bets should be considered debts of honour, without any remedy for it than by an action at law.
Lord Denmanthought the noble Duke had a right to complain, that after he had put his Bill off, it should be thus attacked, and before he had been heard to say a word in defence of it. He would venture to suggest, that the Bill, and also the whole subject, should be referred to a committee, to consider how the law now stood, and what it ought to be for the future. With regard to the qui tam actions, he was not aware that they were now proceeding, but thought it might be perfectly right to prevent these actions.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that as his noble Friend proposed to divide his Bill into two distinct Bills, they might get into some difficulty by postponing it, especially if they wanted to proceed at once with the Bill for stopping the qui tam actions.
The Duke of Richmonddid not agree with his noble Friend (Lord Campbell) that these debts should be made debts of honour. They were debts of honour now, but men made bets who had no honour, and what was to be done with them? This was the cause of the qui tam actions.
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These fellows had no character to lose. If they lost 5,000 l, they did not think their characters worth that sum, and, therefore would not pay it. The best way, therefore, was to make a man pay when he lost. He entirely concurred with the Lord Chief Justice, and would, therefore, move that the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill should be discharged, so that his noble Friend might move that the whole subject should be referred to a select committee. The existing law was absurd and contradictory. At the present moment they might bet 100,000 l. on a race which was run, if by means of a pigeon or otherwise, they had obtained information of the result, and this bet, it had been decided again and again, could be recovered in a court of law. In like manner, one of their Lordships might bet that he would go to Palace-yard and meet twenty lawyers in their wigs in the course of an hour, and this bet could be recovered; but if he bet upon a race-horse, it would not be recoverable. If, however, the race-horse ran for nothing, the bet could be recovered. The subject was, therefore, most worthy of their Lordships' attention.
The Order of the Day for the second reading was then discharged; and the subject, on the motion of Lord Denman, ordered to be referred to a select committee.

SANATORY CONDITION OF THE LOWER ORDERS..
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, he rose to put a question to some Member of her Majesty's Government. He understood that the noble Duke who held the Privy Seal was informed upon the subject to which he was about to refer, which was quite distinct from the subject which had last occupied their Lordships' attention. It was a subject which affected, not only the comforts, but also the moral and physical condition of a large portion of their unrepresented fellow-citizens; he alluded to a measure which had three times passed their Lordships' House, relating to the Sanatory Condition of the Lower Orders. He approached this question with grievous disappointment, because he saw that during the last three years nothing had been done upon it, and unless some explanation were given, the nature of which he could not anticipate, blame must attach to the quarter from which the delay proceeded. In alluding to former proceedings, he was afraid that he was transgressing the usual limits upon putting a ques-

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tion; but, in order to make his question intelligible, he must trespass with a few preliminary observations on the attention of their Lordships. A right rev. Prelate in their Lordships' House, in 1839, moved an Address to the Crown on this subject; a commission was issued by a noble Friend of his who then held the seals of the Home Department, directing an inquiry into the sanatory condition of England and Wales; he (the Marquess of Normanby) in the following year considered it desirable to extend the commission to Scotland also. Perhaps the natural course of things would have been to have awaited the result of that commission before their Lordships had been asked to concur in any measure, but it happened that the next Session, a select committee was appointed by the other House, on the motion of Mr. Slaney, and on reading over the evidence adduced before it, he (the Marquess of Normanby) was so struck with the shameful neglect of the Government and the Legislature, and with the necessity for immediate interposition, that he brought the question before their Lordships in 1841, and stated his reasons for doing so in more detail than would have been justified but for the great importance of the subject. Their Lordships assented to the principle of the bill which he then introduced, but it was suggested that the various details had better be submitted to a select committee. A select committee was accordingly appointed, and he must say there never was a committee which examined into details with greater assiduity, or brought their examination to a more satisfactory issue; in particular, he had received on that occasion material assistance from the noble Lord the present Governor-general of India. The bill which he introduced passed this House; but in consequence of the political circumstances of that year, and the shortened duration of the parliamentary Session, it did not pass through the House of Commons. In the new Parliament, though he at that time knew that the Government of his noble Friend was about to proffer its resignation, yet, looking at the great importance of the subject, and thinking it to be absolutely necessary that their Lordships should show in the new Parliament that they adhered to what they had passed in the old, he again brought in his bill, but that Session was also a short one, and the measure did not pass the Commons. In the first days of the Session of 1842 he again applied to them upon the subject. He
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told them that though it was a bill that would better rest with the executive Government, and that, as they had already assented to its principle, if it so pleased them he would move it in this House and leave it to the Government to take up elsewhere. That measure again for the third time passed this House; and was only opposed in some of its details by a noble Marquess not now in his place, but who withdrew his opposition upon the persuasion of the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Wellington). The bill with respect to drainage the Secretary of State for the Home Department declared he would take under his own charge, and nothing had since been heard of it. The other was carried to a select committee, which did not conclude its labours in time to take the opinion of the House upon the subject. The Session of 1842 concluded, and then occurred an important incident in the consideration of the question. The Poor-law Commissioners, to whom the subject was originally referred, then made a report; a most valuable report it was; and if there could have been previously any doubt as to the necessity of immediate legislation upon the question, he did not think that any man could, after reading it, continue to entertain a doubt that no further delay should take place in remedying the evils complained of. If there were any fault in the report it was in the vast accumulation of important facts, which had perhaps rendered it less palatable to the general reader. In the very first few pages this startling fact was announced, that at this time, among the town population of England and Wales, there were no less than 56,000 deaths occurring annually, the greater portion of which were proved to be preventable by ordinary precautions. Let any one read the succeeding pages of facts, which were skilfully brought together, and he would find quite sufficient evidence in support of this statement. The deaths caused by diseases which it would be in the power of the Legislature, by adopting these precautions, to remove, he had stated at 56,000; that was, as stated in the Report, as if the whole population of Huntingdonshire or Westmoreland were struck from the face of the earth by diseases which the Legislature might remedy. The details of the report were most important throughout, and he would say that the result of its perusal must be to convince any one that more information was not what was required upon the subject. There

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might be some doubt as to the conclusion at which the report arrived as to the particular manner of applying the remedies, and as to the agencies to be employed in carrying them into effect. He thought it obvious to any one who paid the smallest attention to the question that the increased power, which by the three bills that had received their Lordships' assent, he proposed to give to bodies already in existence, would have been sufficient; and if not, other measures might have been easily suggested. At all events, it was thought better not to adopt a centralisation system. What happened then? If more information were required, surely a commission ought to have been at once appointed. With this fact staring in the face of the Government, that the mortality was every year caused and aggravated by the neglect or inattention of the Legislature and Government, what took place? Why from that time to the conclusion of the late Session of Parliament, not a single step was taken on the subject: at this latter period, however, a commission was appointed and placed, with great propriety, under the noble Duke opposite, the Lord Privy Seal. It was that delay of which he now complained. He did not wish to press the matter further at present, but he did say that that delay required explanation. The Government of his noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) used formerly to be attacked for appointing commissions; it was supposed that the Government often postponed measures through the medium of those commissions. He (the Marquess of Normanby) had the misfortune the other night to express his dissent from the appointment of another commission by the existing Government; but, in reference to this commission, he never knew one, in a case where further information was required, the appointment of which was so long delayed. The principle for which he contended had been three times recognised by their Lordships, and in times of public interest, when nothing but public considerations could have induced them to pass the measure, which was deemed necessary for the preservation of the health of a large portion of their fellow-subjects. He would not go further into details now, but if they pursued the report in other points they would see that the evil was not confined to the actual deaths annually caused by want of proper precaution. It was clearly and most convincingly stated, and proved to a demonstration by the report, that the duration of life, even among the upper classes,
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in some towns, was considerably shortened. As an instance, in contrasting the county of Rutland with certain of the manufacturing districts, the increase of mortality in the latter among the upper classes, who were of course much better off than the lower, amounted to one-third more annually whilst the duration of life in the parish in Manchester cited as an example was amongst the middling and lower orders, only one-half that of the parish in Rutlandshire with which it was compared. He feared there was also evidence in the report that in those places where, by the creation of new employments during the last half century, the people had been crowded together without due precautions being taken for their health, the next generation would in every respect be inferior to the last, and that the evils we are likely prospectively to suffer in the great sources of our national strength, are not over when we calculate the number of actual deaths. If he should unfortunately hear from the noble Duke opposite that such was the state of the commission that it was not likely, in the present Session of Parliament, that a measure would be introduced, he should feel it his duty again to call upon their Lordships to assent to that measure of which he had already secured their approbation. But whether a bill was brought in this Session by Government or not, he could not, without explanation, exonerate the department of Government with which the subject rested from blame, in the first place, for not taking up the bill which passed this House, and amending it, if necessary, in the other House. In the next place, if they felt that more inquiry was wanted—the necessity for which, however, he could not see—it was for them to account why one whole year, during which it was clear that this dreadful mortality had continued unabated, had been allowed to pass without a single step having been taken to remdy the evil.
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, the noble Marquess who had just sat down had addressed their Lordships at some length, and had found great fault with her Majesty's Government, because they had not adopted immediate measures with regard to the sanatory condition of the people; and the noble Marquess had afforded as a reason for so finding fault that the bill he had introduced, and which passed their Lordships' House, and was sent down to the House of Commons, bad not been since taken up by the Government. Now he

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begged to observe that bill had been drawn up at a time when the report of the Poor-law Commissioners, to which the noble Marquess had alluded, was not made. In 1841, however, before that report had been made and was upon their Lordships' Table, a bill had been introduced for the improvement and drainage of the town of Leeds. Into that measure the leading clauses of the noble Marquess's bill had been incorporated, and such was the difficulty arising in the way of bringing that bill into operation, that it was now a dead letter, because it had been found impracticable to act upon it. With regard to the delays in the appointment of the commission referred to, he (the Duke of Buccleuch) believed the commission was dated the 9th of May, 1843, and he could state, that as soon as possible afterwards the commissioners therein named met together—many of them were men of science, and others were actively engaged in other pursuits, and it was necessary for them to make arrangements with reference to their own occupations. The commissioners, however, met on the 1st of June, and continued to sit three days a week until the end of July, when they separated for the necessary relaxation, and with a view to attend to important matters of their own. But during the recess, at a time when relaxation was much more necessary, they again engaged in their duties under the commission, and were called upon to enter on inquiries, some of them of a most disagreeable character. They had visited during the recess fifty-one towns. The noble Marquess thought the report already before Parliament contained ample information for immediate legislation. No person who read that report could doubt that there were dreadful particulars of misery and wretchedness laid before the public; nobody could doubt that the state of many parts of the metropolis, and of many towns in the kingdom, was miserable and disgraceful; still less could it be doubted, that disease was great and prevalent. There was no one possessing the feelings of common humanity but would say, "Ought we not to adopt measures to remedy this?" Every person would say that; but it was one thing to say that a remedy ought to be provided, and another to say how that remedy ought to be carried into effect. He had felt the difficulty increased since he had been upon the commission. He had found it extremely difficult to make up his mind as to the proper mode of curing the evils pointed out. It was said by some,
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that the first remedy was to be effected by proper drainage, but was this to be done for nothing; were the commissioners to begin without first inquiring into the nature and character of the drainage, and the consequent expense? Take the case of the metropolis itself. The noble Marquess did not know the evidence laid before the commissioners by men of science and experience, and he could have no idea of the extreme difficulty which arose in the matter in consequence of existing acts of Parliament. The same difficulty had presented itself with reference to another point intimately connected with the health of towns—he alluded to the good and sufficient supply of water to the poorer classes. This had been found to be a most difficult and intricate matter; vast interests were concerned, large companies had been established, and the difficulty was to ascertain how a good and sufficient supply of water could be obtained, and the companies adequately recompensed. He, however, had no doubt that it might be possible so to arrange that a good and sufficient supply of water could be obtained for the poorer classes, without any loss to the existing companies. Such was one of the many results at which the commissioners were gradually arriving. With all the information contained in the Sanatory Report, there was not sufficient evidence on which he, on his responsibility, could come down and recommend to Parliament any measure for its consideration. Why, if the very bill which the noble Marquess had himself brought forward was carried into effect the amount of surveyors' fees alone would be 80,000 l. In London, in particular those fees would be exceedingly heavy. Now, the difficulty in framing any bill was to provide the manner in which such charges were to be met. Take Leeds for instance, and the drainage and supply of water must not only be provided for, but also how, in what manner, and upon whom, the cost and charges were to be levied. These were serious considerations; and, though a bill had been passed with these objects for that town, it remained, he repeated, almost a dead letter, because it was found impossible to carry its clauses into operation. He could only say, with regard to the existing commission, that the greatest attention had been paid; no time had been lost; there were upon it not only men of science, but others closely occupied ill pursuits of their own; but that all had, with great cheerfulness and earnestness,

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entered upon the duties imposed on them—none seeking for delay, but, on the contrary, all anxious to push the matter forward. They had everywhere been received with the greatest favour by the working classes, who hailed them as persons likely to bring benefit and comfort to them; there had been everywhere a total absence of party feeling, and from all municipal bodies with whom they had to communicate they had received every assistance; and much information had been acquired that was not contained in the Sanatory Report. He had no doubt, that in a short time it would be in the power of the commissioners to lay the information brought before them, and upon it to suggest, he hoped, a sound legislative measure. When that might happen he could not at present pledge himself. There were many reports which had not yet been presented; important information bad been received from towns on the continent as to their manner of supplying water and carrying these matters into effect. Valuable information had also been received from America on the same subject. Whenever, on all this mass of information, a legislative measure might be introduced, he hoped it would be productive of; all the good their Lordships could wish.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that with all respect for the noble Duke, he must say, that a more unsatisfactory explanation had never been made in their Lordships' House. The noble Duke had admitted all he (the Marquess of Normanby) had alleged—viz, that the Government had taken no steps in the matter from the presentation of the sanatory report in 1842 until the appointment of the commission on the 9th of May, 1843. The noble Duke had not given the slightest excuse for the delay of the twelve months which had been allowed to elapse. The noble Duke said, that the provisions of his Bill had been tried in Leeds, and had failed. He would not contradict the noble Duke; but information had just reached him from Leeds, that the corporation of that town, were at the present moment putting the Bill into operation, and that they were satisfied with the provisions.
The Duke of BuccleuchObserved, that the noble Marquess's Bill of 1842 had passed that House and been sent to the other House of Parliament, where it was referred to a select committee, in whose
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hands it had remained during the whole of that session. The noble Marquess could not charge the Government with doing nothing, because the Bill never came out of the hands of the select committee.
The Marquess of Normanbyrepeated, that as the measure of 1842 had failed, the Government were answerable for having taken no steps from the close of session 1842 until May, 1843.
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, the noble Marquess ought to know that measures of that description required great consideration.
Earl Fitzwilliamremarked, that it was not quite so easy to legislate effectually upon the matter as some people seemed to imagine. He thought his noble Friend opposite (Duke of Buccleuch) was mistaken in supposing that the corporation of Leeds had found their Bill impracticable, for he was inclined to believe they were now acting upon it, because he had been told by a very ingenious person, that the plan had been carried into effect, and the result had been to drive the evils sought to be remedied from one part of the town to another. The corporation had not been supine with reference to its Act of Parliament; but they had found, on the experience of physicians of eminence, of chymists, and of men of science, it was much easier to find an evil than to discover a remedy for it.
The subject was then dropped.
House adjourned.