Lords Sitting of 26 May 1843

Preamble
MINUTES.] BILLS. Public—°. Millbank Prison.
3a. and passed:—Appeals, etc. Privy Council; Turnpike Roads (Ireland).
Private. — 1a. Scarborough Harbour; Sowerby and Soy-land Inclosure; Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal; Bannbridge Road; Southampton Docks; Belfast and Cavehill Railway.
2a. South Eastern and Maidstone Railway; Haddenham Inclosure; Drumpeller Railway; Forth Navigation.
Reported.South Eastern and London and Croydon Railway; South Eastern Railway Extension; Wexford Harbour; Liskeard and Caradon Railway; Glasgow, Paisley. and Greenock Railway; Birmingham and Gloucester Railway; Bethnal-green Improvement; Thames Lastage and Ballastage; Portsea Improvement; Glasgow and Three-Mile House Road; Clifie-cum-Lund Inclosure; Glasgow City and Suburban Gas.
3a. and passed:—Anderton Carrying Company.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Marquess of Breadalbane, from Kilmadock, Ayr, and Maybole, for Settling the Scotch Church Question..—By the Earl of Mountcashel, from several places in Ireland, against further Alterations in the Corn-law; and against the Tariff.—By Lord Lilford, from Warrington, for Medical Reform.—From the Nenagh Poor-law Union, against the Irish Poor-law.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND—SECESSION.
The Marquess of Breadalbane,in presenting petitions respecting the church of Scotland, said that their Lordships had with regard to the church of Scotland, acted on a policy that was inconsistent with the principles of civil and religions liberty. The people of Scotland were now taking up the question amongst themselves, as they had lost all confidence in their Lordships' wisdom, and the result had been, that an alarming secession had taken place no less than 400 ministers having seceded. Now, for his part, he placed no confidence in the Government and his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) had been so tardy in bringing forward his measure, that he (the Marquess of Breadalbane) had lost all confidence in the measure, and he believed it would now be incapable of healing the wounds so deeply inflicted on the vital principles of the church. Any measure the Government might bring forward would now be too late. The conduct of the Government towards the people of Scotland had been hostile to one of the first principles of good statesmanship, which was, that there should be no interference with the religious principles of the people. He maintained
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that the policy of the Government with respect to Scotland had been hostile to the principles of civil and religious liberty.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, his noble Friend must be perfectly aware that no such event as that to which he had referred could possibly take place in Scotland, without receiving the attention of Government. He had stated before, that nothing which had occurred would have the effect of altering the intentions of her Majesty's Government upon this subject. He said so still. With respect to what the noble Lord termed the tardiness of the Government, he begged to give notice that, in consequence of what had taken place, he would, in the course of the next week, introduce a measure for regulating the settlement and admission of ministers.
Petition laid on the Table.

REPEAL OF THE UNION.—(IRELAND.)
The Marquess of Londonderrystated that it had been very generally rumoured that Mr. O'Connell, Lord Ffrench, and other magistrates who had attended repeal meetings, had been very properly dismissed. He was anxious to know from the noble Duke if such was the fact.
The Duke of Wellingtonobserved that if his noble Friend had given him notice of his intention to ask such a question, he could have prepared himself with his official documents. He had not seen them, but he had every reason to believe such to be the fact.
The Earl Fitzwilliamremarked, that whenever it might be deemed necessary that this subject should be discussed, it would be desirable that their Lordships should have the reasons stated to them on which the Government had taken this step.
The Marquess of Londonderrycould not, he said, but feel very happy in the answer that had been given to him by the noble Duke. He was anxious on this subject, perhaps more than any of their Lordships; and therefore he could not but feel much with respect to these meetings, the object of which was to put an end to that union, for the maintenance of which he felt so much interested. His feelings were interested on this subject, being closely connected with a minister (Lord Castlereagh) who, he believed in his conscience, had done more than any other Minister that ever existed to accomplish one of the most important, as well as the gravest measure, that had ever been com-

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pleted—a measure that, when accomplished, both branches of the Legislature, and the Sovereign, after forty years' experience of it, had declared to be the most important to this country. When, then, he saw and felt that there were meetings taking place, he could not but lament—
The Marquess of Lansdownetook the liberty of calling the noble Lord to order. He did not wish to deprive the noble Lord of the opportunity of expressing his sentiments on a subject on which it was natural, on account of the particular connection to which the noble Marquess had referred, that he should be anxious to make some allusion; but then he ventured to submit to the noble Marquess, as from the answer of the noble Duke he was only able to announce that a fact had taken place, and was not then prepared to give an explanation on the subject, whether it would not be better, whether it would not be more consistent with order, to defer his observations to a period, which could not be far distant, when the noble Duke could give them the explanation that the noble Lord desired.
The Marquess of Londonderrywould not then say one word further. But when the noble Duke gave his answer, it would be quite impossible, connected as he was with the minister to whom he had referred, that he should allow the merits of that great statesman to be overlooked, and that, too, without at least raising his humble voice in his favour.
Subject at an end.

DISTRESS—IRELAND — CORN-LAWS — THE TARIFF.
The Earl of Mountcashelhad some petitions to present to their Lordships, to which he was anxious to call their most serious attention. It was well known, that Ireland was, at the present moment, suffering the greatest hardships and privations; and, in support of that statement, he would take the liberty of reading to their Lordships a short extract from the report of the Poor-law Commissioners, which, he believed, would have more effect with them than anything he could offer to their notice. In the commencement of the 3rd report of the Poor-law Commissioners on the condition of the people of Ireland, in 1836, they state—
" That agricultural labour exceeds the demand—that agricultural wages vary from 6d.
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to 1s. a-day, and that the average earnings of the whole class is from 2s. to 2s. 6d. a-week."
The Poor-law Commissioners thus continue:—
"Thus circumstanced, it is impossible for the able-bodied in general to provide against sickness, or the temporary absence of employment, or against old age, or the destitution of their widows and children, in the contingent event of their own premature decease. A great portion of them are insufficiently provided at anytime with the commonest necessaries of life— their habitations are wretched hovels— several of a family sleep together upon straw or upon the bare ground— sometimes with a blanket— sometimes even without so much to cover them; their food commonly consists of dry potatoes, and with these they are at times so scantily supplied as to be obliged to stint themselves to one spare meal in the day. There are even instances of persons being driven by hunger to seek sustenance in wild herbs; they sometimes get a herring or a little milk, but they never get meat, except at Christmas, Easter, and Shrovetide; some go in search of employment to Great Britain during the harvest—others wander through Ireland with the same view. The wives and children of many are occasionally obliged to beg—they do so reluctantly, and with shame, and in general go to a distance from home that they may not be known,"
That statement was made in the year 1836, and it was borne out by a letter of Mr. Senior, dated the 14th of April, in which he stated, that the great bulk of the Irish population were agricultural, and that a large proportion of them were out of employment. But their Lordships should bear in mind, that the Irish peasantry were far better off in 1836 than they were at present; and although since then they had had a Poor-law enacted, and had erected 130 workhouses capable of giving accommodation to 20,000 paupers, still it must be quite evident to their Lordships that a large proportion of the unemployed labourers were wholly unprovided for. In addition to all that, distress had of late augmented to a frightful extent; and he proposed, as he went forward, to point out the causes. The petitions he held in his hand, complained of the increasing distress, and they stated, that during the last year or two, the pecuniary difficulties of the country had been fearfully augmented. It was the fact that such had been the case, and therefore it was that he wished to call their Lordships' attention not simply to the condition of the poor and labouring classes, but to the condition of the whole of Ireland from the

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highest to the lowest. With regard to the landowners, they were in a state of distress unexampled — the distress of the farmers was also unexampled, and many of their Lordships present, who were connected with Ireland, would bear him out in that statement; then if they looked at the condition of the agricultural and labouring population, it would be found that they were in a state of destitution and poverty far exceeding anything that had been previously known in that country. In these petitions it was stated, that the agricultural distress was occasioned by the recent Corn-law, which did not afford ample and sufficient protection to the home produce; and to the tariff, which did not afford the agriculturists a remunerating price for their cattle. Before he entered upon the subject, he wished to state that he had not the slightest doubt the agricultural interests of the country had, for a series of years, been sacrificed more than any other class. The first blow they received was that in 1815, when, after the peace, a very great fall took place in agricultural produce— the land lords were placed in an extremely difficult position, and the consequence was a great fall in the value of rents, and corresponding reductions in other departments. He mentioned that, in order to show the position in which the landowners were placed: many of them, in their wills and marriage settlements, saddled their estates with the payment of large sums, believing that to be the real and permanent value of the land; and the consequence was, that as marriages took place, and parties died off, the land being saddled with a fixed charge, became unable to pay the burthens laid on it, after that change in the value of agricultural and landed property took place. However, the landowners bore that with the utmost temper and patience, and he believed their forbearance had been frequently referred to, even in that House; but it was supposed, at that time, that no further blow would be inflicted. What followed? A few years afterwards, (in 1819), another blow was struck at the landowners, and that arose from the bill called the currency bill. He was not going to trouble their Lord ships with a detailed account of the operations of the currency bill, but it had the effect, while it reduced the incomes of the landowners to double their liabilities. He was desirous of giving their Lordships an illustration of all the losses the land-
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owners had sustained, and he held in his hand a statement showing what prices were during the war and since. In 1812, wheat was at. 126S. the quarter, the average price being 31 l. 10s. the load. Now, in 1842, the average price was 57s. the quarter (in the present year it was still lower), being equal to 14 l 5s. the load, and even that price the farmers would be very glad to get. So that at present it took six and-a-half loads of wheat to purchase 100 l. Government stock; while in 1812 it could be purchased for three loads. That would show their Lordships the great losses the landowners had sustained, but still they struggled on. The third blow had been recently inflicted; and, for his own part, he believed that it had completely crippled the agricultural industry of Ireland, and that many would not be able to withstand it. The farmers who held upon long leases were oppressed in the most unjust manner, and would, he feared, be entirely swamped by the operation of the measures to which the petitioners referred. In the present day, the landowners, farmers, and labourers, had all suffered, and he believed to a much greater extent than the English agriculturists. The petitioners stated—
" That poverty and distress, which was now so generally complained of, must be attributed to the baneful effect of the Corn-laws, and to the recent tariff, by which foreign corn, cattle, and provisions were permitted to be brought in for the benefit of the foreigner, and the total ruin of the Irish agriculturist,"
He must say, that he fully concurred in that statement. He knew that it had been said, that a great fall had taken place last year in the price of corn and cattle by reason of the panic, but he feared that was a panic that would long continue, inasmuch as it resulted from the door being opened to the introduction of foreign provisions, which had been before excluded by reason of the duties imposed for the protection of native agriculture. The public were now aware that facilities were given for the introduction not only of corn but also of cattle and cured provisions to any extent. The public were aware that there were many places where these articles could be obtained at a very cheap rate, and that speculators had taken measures to procure them on a great scale, and have them regularly shipped to this country. It was true that a small portion only had been as yet received; but the knowledge that measures had been taken

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to obtain a large supply, must operate to produce a reduction in price, and to lower the value of all descriptions of agricultural produce: and thus the farmer, when he sent his produce to market, could no longer obtain the price he was in the habit of receiving; he was therefore compelled to dispose of his produce at a ruinous loss, and he could no longer maintain his position; he was unable to pay his rent or give employment to agricultural labourers—because he felt he was more likely to incur a serious loss than make a profit by it. Not being able to fulfil his engagements towards his landlord, the farmer was compelled to give up his farm, and he believed that was taking place to a great extent, even in England, producing greater distress and privation among the lower classes, from want of employment than ever was known before. Confidence had been shaken to a great extent and had had the most ruinous effect. Formerly the landowners could raise money on the security of their property, but now they found the greatest difficulty in doing so. What was more extraordinary was, that, at a time when the agricultural and the manufacturing interests were in the greatest distress, money was more abundant in London than ever it was known before. Millions were lying totally unproductive in the coffers of the Bank of England, while there was the greatest want of capital in Ireland. It showed that there was something diseased in the body politic, and it resembled a man whose blood did not circulate healthfully through his veins and arteries, but was all concentrated near his heart, and thereby produced the most serious disease. He was quite satisfied that the petitioners were right as to the cause, and that agriculture had been totally prostrated by the measures which had recently passed through that House. Now, first, with regard to oats, which was the chief article of Irish produce imported, the fact being, that for the last twenty years the average quantity of wheat imported into England had not exceeded 400,000 quarters; while of oats there was something nearer 2,000,000 quarters annually. Oats, then, he referred to as being the great produce of Ireland; and by the late act there was only a duty of 8s. to protect it. During the last year the greater bulk of all the oats had been sold at ½5d. to 6d. per stone: and he would ask whether that was sufficient to remunerate the farmer for his labour and capital? With regard to the
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price of cattle he could say, that in the north of Ireland it had been reduced to a frightful extent. Meat, which was formerly 6d. to 7d. per lb., was now down to 2d. or 2½d.; and, a short time since it was as low as 1½d. per lb. It had been stated to him that the 36th regiment, when stationed in Limerick, had contracted to be supplied with meat at l½d. per lb. That might be doubted, but the gentleman who had 'furnished him with the information had written to the commanding officer of the regiment, and had ascertained that such was really the case. Now, he asked, how was it possible that the farmer could exist and pay his rent and taxes, and local charges, not forgetting the poor-rate— the most grievous of all? He asked, how was he to do all that, when the price of agricultural produce was reduced so low? Noble Lords were not perhaps aware of all this; they were perhaps acquainted with what was taking place in the manufacturing districts; but they did not know what was taking place in the agricultural parts of the country, and could not be expected to feel for the distress of which they knew nothing. He thought it right to call the attention of the House to the effect of the system of free-trade that had been begun by noble Lords on the other side of the House. They were allowing articles of food to come into the country to interfere with the home producer; and they were allowing manufactures to come in and interfere with the industry of the country. They were thus injuring the country in both ways; and while they opened the door wide to foreigners, they seemed to forget that those foreign countries were excluding English produce. No less than six hostile tariffs had been recently directed against that country in different parts of Europe, and while foreigners considered they were totally independent of England, it would seem as if England were entirely dependent on them. That was a course that could not long be persevered in; their Lordships might believe that they were doing right, and he gave them every credit for good intentions; but the course was one which they could not pursue for any length of time without discovering that the result would be as injurious to the manufacturers themselves as to the agriculturists. They would cut off the ways and means of the country. They seemed to forget that the country was in an artificial state— that, while many other countries had merely a nominal debt, they

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were encumbered with one of nearly 800,000,000 l.; and that they must, in order to act fairly by the public creditor, and pay their dividends, raise a sum of 29,000,000 l. annually, over and above the necessary and ordinary expenses of the Government. It was that that made the great difference between England and foreign countries, and if they were to adopt these measures it would be better for them to have free-trade altogether. Having so great a debt to provide for, England was in a totally different position from other countries. Their Lordships were aware that the greater portion of these taxes were raised by indirect taxation on the articles consumed by the public, and if they adopted measures which would have the effect of diminishing the means of the public, whether they were landowners, farmers, labourers, agriculturists, manufacturers, shopkeepers, or tradesmen— if they adopted measures that would curtail the incomes of these parties, whether derived from profits or wages, they immediately took away from them the power of consuming to the same extent as formerly. It might be said, that these measures would not produce any such effect, but he had shown that it had done so with regard to rents and wages, and, with regard to the profits of the farmers, he thought he had stated some facts to show that they were considerably diminished— all these classes, not having the same amount of money in their pockets, were necessarily unable to consume the same amount of corn, provisions, or manufactures they formerly did. It ought to be borne in mind, that four-sixths of the manufactures were consumed by the home market, and were altogether unaffected by their foreign trade. The necessary result of the distress consequently was, that there was a considerable falling-off in the revenue and that he had no doubt would continue, although, by great exertions in some one quarter, matters might appear to be improving. Adam Smith had well said, that " the wealth of a nation consists in the wealth of its people;" but if Government adopted measures to cripple the resources of the people, the result must be a falling off in the consumption— and a great increase of the existing distress. It appeared to him that the adoption of measures of free-trade would lead inevitably to that. They were suffering from them at present, and so long as they persisted in them, so long, he foretold, would there be distress and suf-
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fering among all classes of the country. He would take the liberty of calling the attention of their Lordships to one of the reports of the committee of the Chamber of Deputies of France on the subject of commercial tariffs. He found that a committee of the Chamber of Deputies reported in 1832 as follows:—
" If we admitted the food, and raiment, and metals, and colonial and other objects, which strangers would bring to our ports, we might probably gain some hundreds of millions. Should we be the richer in consequence?—for the riches of a state arc in the elements of labour, and when labour fails to find employment, misery is reproduced. And it is not only a question of comfort, but one of existence, for if wheat were introduced without duty from the Baltic or Black Sea, our maritime shores would remain uncultivated, and the effect of a ruinous competition would affect, more and more, nearly the whole of our agricultural population,"
Such was the declaration of a committee of the French Chamber; and when he called to mind that in France bread was so much cheaper, and provisions generally so much lower than in England, it was somewhat singular that even French statesmen were afraid to adopt a measure for increasing the facilities of introducing foreign provisions. He wished from his heart the Government would take a lesson from them, because in that declaration he thought was contained the soundest policy and the greatest anxiety for the welfare of the people. The matter paramount in their minds was the interest of the home producers; while, on the other hand, he feared the advantages the Government expected to derive from the measures they had adopted, would be scarcely equivalent to the misery, and distress, and ruin that would be entailed upon the people. He thought, the French had in that taken a leaf out of the book of this country, for that was its policy in ancient times; while the Government now was going astray, and other nations were reaping the benefit of its errors. It might be said, that Ireland had escaped the infliction of the property-tax, and therefore had no right to complain; but he believed the Government had acted wisely in not imposing that tax on Ireland, because to impose it upon that impoverished country, would only retard her progress in the way of improvement. He would just state a few facts to give their Lordships an idea of the comparative wealth of the two countries. In 1831, the rental of all Ireland was 12,715,578 l

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per annum; while the rental of England, at a later period (1841), was 59,685,412 l. Again, he found that the amount of imports into Ireland in 1841, was 1,696,355 l. — while in England, in the same year, it was 62,684,547 l. The exports from Ire land, in the same period, were 460,965 l.; while those from England were5l,217,603 l.. The amount of legacy duty was also a pretty good criterion of the wealth of a country. For one year in Ireland, the amount of capital on which it was paid was 4,488,265 l., while in England it was 42,748,560 l. Nothing could more clearly show the comparative poverty of Ireland. Again, the amount of stamps used in Great Britain in 1841 was 7,049,000 l, while in Ireland it was only 463,903 l Now, if Ireland was so exceedingly poor, was it wise or just to impose on her the same amount of taxation as England was subjected to? As it was, however, England had been for several years imposing upon Ireland various taxes which she had not been accustomed to. Within the last few years, many duties had been assimilated to those paid in England, whereas, formerly they were not more than half. Then again, a few years ago, the expense of the police establishment had been all defrayed by Government, but, by a recent act, half the expense was to be borne by the counties, and although their Lordships did not hear much of the local taxation of Ireland, he could assure them that it was extremely high. In some instances, it amounted to 7s. or 8s. per acre, as was the case with himself; and that was certainly a large sum to be deducted from the produce of the estate. In the county of Cork, where he resided, there was no less a sum than 10,000 l. paid for the police establishment, and which rendered the taxation extremely heavy. He would give their Lordships one instance of the bad effects of an assimilation of the duties. A few years ago, the duty on glass was only half what it was at present. At that period, being anxious to improve the condition of the peasantry on their estates, who, for the most part, as noble Lords were probably aware, live in the most wretched hovels, many of their cabins having nothing but a small hole, without any window, he as well as other Irish landlords, purchased a large quantity of glass for that purpose. But the price was suddenly raised from 3l. to 6l. per crate, and the effect was to put a sudden stop to the improvement and civilization of the lower orders in that
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country. The establishment of Poor-laws (in his opinion the worst measure of all), had been recommended— an extensive system of emigration had been also advocated, and the employment of the people on public works; and he believed, that if these latter were promoted, it would advance the country a century, and give a great impetus to trade. Their Lordships had heard much of the pressure from without, but he feared, from the rapid increase of the population, that the pressure from within would soon become irresistible, if vent was not given to the surplus in the only valuable and legitimate mode, an extensive system of emigration. They were all aware of the present condition of Ireland, and he was sure they all deeply deplored it, and were sorry to see the Irish people led astray as they were, by a man whom he believed they would all agree with him in saying was the greatest enemy to the country that ever lived. They all saw the power he exercised over the people, but why had he that power? Was it not natural that when millions of the people were in a state of destitution, misery, and starvation— when they were reduced to a state of desperation, that they should be willing, at the beck and nod of any demagogue, to do what was told them? It was easy for a man of talent and experience to address inflammatory speeches to men so circumstanced. He could depict, in glowing colours, their misery, which he called their wrongs; he could turn their abject state to his own purposes, and accuse England of being the cause of their misery. By turning their unhappy and destitute condition adroitly into a grievance, he could inflame the minds of the people, and turn them to his own purposes. The only way, he believed, in which the people could be tranquillized, was to give them employment, and make their condition more comfortable. Let the Government prove that it was anxious for their welfare, and ready to devote a portion of the wealth of the community for their benefit— let their Lordships show the people that such was their wish, and convince them that they were really and sincerely their friends; and he, who knew something of the people of Ireland, could assure them that when the Irish were convinced that their Lordships were anxious to promote their advantage, their hearts would warm towards them; and, instead of being discontented with their position, they would take every possible occasion to preserve the

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connexion between the two countries. In their present condition, they must naturally feel opposed to England, and such would be the case so long as they considered that they were merely under the yoke of England, that any change would be for their benefit, and that they could not be worse than they at present were. When men were reduced to the lowest ebb of poverty, they must naturally feel discontented; and therefore it was not upon the whole to be wondered at that thousands, nay millions, he feared, were anxious for the dismemberment of the empire, which he, for one, trusted the Almighty would never permit.
Earl Fitzwilliamdid not propose to follow the noble Earl through all the topics of his speech, which were of too multifarious a nature for him to notice every part of it. He must say, however, that there was one-subject the noble earl seemed to have forgotten. The noble Earl had complained of the distress and suffering of Ireland, which were not of yesterday, and the noble Earl took no notice of the Act of 1815, which to his regret, he had assented to. The noble Earl, too, had forgotten in his observations the great feature of the present Session— that feature on which the eyes of all Englishmen was fixed— fixed now in anticipation of its benefits— fixed in contemplation of it in progress, and soon likely to be fixed on it as completed. The noble Earl had forgotten that measure of which he hoped, as he saw two Cabinet Ministers in the House, and one in office, their Lordships would be favoured with an opinion. The noble Earl had forgotten a measure to which he roust not, he supposed, more distinctly allude, as it was under discussion in another place, and he was surprised that the noble Earl had forgotten to mention that measure— he meant the Canada Corn Bill. The noble Earl was, nevertheless, deeply interested in a measure which, if he might augur from the division which bad already taken place, was likely some day to come before their Lordships. It had been lately stated that Canada was an integral part of the empire; he was glad to hear that; he believed that the statement even went further, as Canada was described as an English county. Canada was to have a Corn BUI, which was certainly a little improvement; but if Canada was to be considered as an integral part of the empire, and even as an English county, was not the converse of that proposition true? If Canada were to be
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treated as an English county, ought not Yorkshire to be treated like Canada, and have a Corn Bill like Canada; and ought not Devonshire to be treated like Yorkshire, and have the same laws? How then was Canada treated? He was delighted to observe that the Ministers in treating Canada as an English county, had proposed to give Canada the advantage of having wheat imported from America— from all foreign countries, he was reminded by a noble Friend—at 3s. per quarter. Canada it was said, did not grow enough to supply its own wants, and this measure went to enable the people to supply themselves. He was glad that the people of Quebec were to eat their bread, paying only 3s. per quarter for their corn, and he wished that the people of Sheffield had the same advantages. He saw his noble Friend opposite (Lord Wharncliffe), who did not share his opinions, but who, he had no doubt, would confirm what he said, that in the town of Sheffield at this time there were upwards of 2,000 houses uninhabited. That was a fact which he thought of great importance, and worthy of their Lordships' consideration. He thought that they could not deny if Sheffield could receive American corn like Canada, that it would obtain returns for its manufactures; but by keeping out American corn from Sheffield, the manufactures of Sheffield had been kept out of America, and the Americans had begun to manufacture for themselves. That had inflicted a great blow on the industry of Sheffield, and the importance of that must be evident from the fact that the number of houses uninhabited showed that not less than 12,000 people were injured by it. Again, he repeated, that he rejoiced that the inhabitants of Quebec were to have their wheat at a fixed duty of 3s. per quarter, and he hoped it would not be long before Manchester, Birmingham, and the other towns of England, would obtain the same boon from the hands of the Ministers that considered Canada as an integral part of the empire. It was not a ground of complaint that Canada was so treated, but it might be expected that other parts of her Majesty's dominions should be treated in the same way. He supposed that there was no doubt whatever that American corn would be introduced into Canada at a fixed duty of 3s. and though that question was not under discussion, he could not avoid expressing a hope that the law which was to be applied to the other side of the

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Atlantic should be applied here. The people of England thought they ought not to he taxed to pay for the jointures and dowers, allowances for younger children with which certain landowners had burthened their estates. That was an argument which the people might say there were two ways of meeting. They were certainly indebted to the noble Earl for disclosing the motives and the arguments which induced certain members of the aristocracy to propose and defend a corn-law as a means of relieving themselves from their burthens. The noble Earl, in defending the law, had recognised the fact that the law-makers had kept up the price of corn with a view of enabling them to bear the charges on the land. But did it not occur to the noble Earl, that instead of passing the Corn-law of 1815 to keep up the price of corn, it might have been as well if the jointures, and dowers, and provisions for younger children, had been reduced from l.000 l. to 800 l. or 400 l? They might cut off the other end of the stick. They might have taken the burthens off laud by lessening jointures and provisions for younger children. All the people of England ought not to pay an increased price for their corn in order to pay certain jointures. His noble Friend (Lord Wharn cliffe) might shake his head; but it would be more just, instead of laying on a Corn-law, to reduce the incumbrances on land. He suggested whether such a course would not be a better remedy than adding to the price of corn to relieve themselves. He hoped the noble Earl, in carrying out his principle, would give notice that he would next Session bring forward a motion to re-enact the Corn-law which existed before the late alteration of the Corn-law of 1828.
Lord Wharncliffe,while he admitted the hardships under which Sheffield was labouring, differed from his noble Friend when his noble Friend supposed that Sheffield would be relieved if it were placed on the same footing as Quebec. Did his noble Friend really believe that the Corn-law caused the interruption to the trade of Sheffield? [Earl Fitzwilliam. " Yes, I do"]. It was his firm persuasion that such was not the case. That law had no influence in inducing America to put on her high duties, which were put on for purely fiscal reasons, and, having been put on were the cause of the disturbance of the trade of Sheffield. Thereto must be added, that in past years, there had been great speculations in Sheffield, and a
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greater quantity of goods had been produced and exported than could be taken up. Those were the causes of the distress of Sheffield, and he differed entirely from his noble Friend, who ascribed the condition of that town to the Corn-law.
Earl Fitzwilliam,in explanation, was understood to say that he did ascribe the distress of Sheffield chiefly, if not altogether, to the Corn-laws. The Corn-laws were, in his opinion, the cause of the American tariff, which was directed against our manufactures. Both the Corn-laws and the tariff prevented the exchange of our manufactures, and together caused that distress which existed in Sheffield.
Lord Ashburtondenied that the Corn-laws had any effect whatever in excluding the manufactures of this country from American markets. The duties in the American tariff were imposed exclusively for the purposes of revenue, and that tariff would not be moved a single inch, or affected in the slightest degree, if this country was to declare a free trade in corn tomorrow. In point of fact, the tariff of America was not maintained for protection, but for revenue. All parties in America disclaimed the principle of protection, and if American corn was admitted into this country to-morrow free of any duty whatever, it would not make any alteration in their tariff. With respect to Canada, the law, as it at present stood, admitted American corn into Canada free of duty, and, when that corn was ground into flour, it was admitted into this country at a very small duty, which had averaged very little more than two shillings a quarter. If nothing else was wanting but an introduction of corn to set the manufactures of Sheffield into activity, his noble Friend might rest assured that there was nothing whatever in the existing Corn-laws to prevent that return to prosperity. He was surprised to hear the noble Earl treat this as a question merely involving the settlements of the aristocracy. The noble Earl might have been so little occupied with considerations respecting his own order as to be induced to view the question in that way; but he owned that he was surprised to hear the noble Earl treat a great question of this kind as a question of dowries and jointures. He hardly knew any country in the world in which some measure of this kind was not maintained, either as a protection or as a compensation for some charges to which the land

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was subject, A system of protection, or by whatever name else they pleased to call it, was maintained in every part of the world. France had it; so had Holland; and they found the same thing existing in Spain and Portugal and other countries; and even in America itself it existed. They bad the President of America telling his fellow-citizens that he did not think it sate for any country in the world not to maintain such a protection for its agriculture as would enable the people to exist without depending on a foreign supply. To treat this question as a question of dowries and jointures was to treat it in a very shallow manner. [Earl Fitzwilliam: It is not my argument. Non meus hic sermo.] He believed that a reasonable and moderate protection for agriculture was beneficial to all classes of the community, and enabled this country to secure a supply of food under all circumstances.
Lord Monteaglewas desirous to correct a mistake of the noble Lord, in supposing that the argument respecting encumbrances on landed property had come from his noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam.) His noble Friend, on the contrary, bad exposed the fallacy of that argument. The argument had come from the other side. It had been used by the noble Earl (Mountcashel), and he believed that he was not the originator of it; for, unless he was misinformed, the noble Earl had high authority for using that argument, as it had been made use of by a Cabinet minister during the present session of Parliament. He was glad that they had the high authority of the noble Lord (Ashburton) for exposing the fallacy of that argument. He wished it was true, as the noble Lord had stated, that the American tariff was maintained only for the sake of revenue. If, as the noble Lord said, the Americans disclaimed protection, then they were wiser than their Lordships. But he thought that if the Americans maintained their tariff merely for purposes of revenue, then, he thought, that if such was their object, they would have reduced all duties to that amount that would render them most productive. One word as to the petitions presented by his noble Friend (the Earl of Mountcashel). He would entreat his noble Friend to consider whether he were right in thinking that the Irish were mainly interested in the maintenance of those restrictive aws. He believed that no part of the
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empire had suffered more from the Corn-laws than Ireland had since 1815. The tendency of that and all similar measures was to produce a fluctuation of price greater than had ever previously been known. It was well known that the competition for land in Ireland was so great that farmers were induced to offer a higher price than in many instances a judicious landlord would accept, and those restrictive measures, by the uncertainty and fluctuation of price they occasioned, had a tendency to encourage that competition. He differed from his noble Friend in thinking that the complaints of the Irish people were at all justly attributable to the Corn-law or the tariff of last year. He believed that they were in no respect to blame. The main cause of distress in Ireland was the want of employment, and the diminished power of consumption occasioned by the falling-off of their trade. This was the cause, and not the tariff or the Corn-law of last year.
Lord Ashburton,in explanation, said that the tariffs alluded to as having been passed in the United States were passed for purposes of revenue only, and although some of the States might have looked at them in a favourable view, as affording protection, yet it was not for that object they had been passed.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, with respect to the fluctuations in the price of corn which had taken place in countries which exported corn to this country, that those fluctuations were caused by the operation of our Corn-laws, for it was evident that the holders of corn in such countries would raise the price of corn, in consequence of an increased demand for corn on the part of England. The price of corn was now low, and he must remark that if the law did not produce the effect of raising the price of corn, it gave no protection.
The Earl of Stradbrokesaid, that the depressions of price was caused by the great quantity of foreign corn that had been ordered before it could be known of what description the harvest would be.
Petitions to lie on the Table.
Their Lordships adjourned, at a quarter past, eight o'clock,