Lords Sitting of 15 May 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. 2a. Appeals, &c.; Privy Council.
3a. Testimony in the Colonies.
Private.—1a. Northampton and Peterborough Railway.
2a. Anderton Carrying Company; Faversham Navigation.
Reported.—Preston Waterworks; St. James's, Westminster Improvement.
3a. and passed:—Bourn Drainage.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Radnor,' from Dorsetshire and five other places, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Lord Beaumont, from Thirsk, against the Canada Corn Bill.—From the Western Division of Surrey, for a Fixed Duty on Corn. —By Earl Powis, and the Bishops of Gloucester, Norwich, and Winchester, from Montgomeryshire, the Clergy of Bucks., Gloucester, Andover, and Holt, from Llanwddyn, and the Society of Ancient Britons, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangoer.— By the Marquess of Londonderry, from the Medical Men of Suffolk, and the North of England Medical Reform.— From Portsea, against Church Rates.

CANADA CORN BILL.
Lord Beaumontin presenting a petition against the Canada Corn bill, took the opportunity of explaining a statement, which he had made on a former occasion, with respect to the Canada Corn Bill. He had then stated, that when they in Parliament were discussing the present Corn-law, they were ignorant that the Government had the intention of proposing a bill, such as it appeared they were now about to propose, with respect to corn coining from Canada. When he made such an assertion, he was met on the occasion by a counter assertion from the noble Duke, that the Government had, in proposing the Corn-bill, made known their intentions with regard to the present measure. Since then he had looked to the published reports of the speeches of every one of the ministers who had addressed either House of Parliament during the progress of that bill, and he could not find in any one of them a single line, a single sentence, which one of the utmost astuteness and greatest ingenuity could construe into an announcement that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a bill, by which, on the payment of 3s. fixed duty into the colonial treasury, American corn would be admitted into this country at a nominal duty, or it might be said quite free. There were many passages to be found in the speeches then delivered, as to a change in their colonial policy, as regarded duties imposed between the colonies and England, and between the colonies and adjacent foreign states, but nothing was said in any way to induce a person to anticipate the present measure. On the contrary, he found in a speech of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, a principle laid down, which was in direct opposition to that which was now proposed to be acted upon. In one of the reported speeches of the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, he found this passage:—
"The principle of the colonial laws, and a very just system he held it to be, was that where preferences were given to articles of colonial growth, the producing colonies should not be permitted to create a fictitious export trade, and so gain artificial profits at the expanse of other colonies, by substituting foreign produce for their own. This was the case with the tropical productions of sugar and rum. The right hon. Gentleman himself applied a very stringent rule of this kind, with regard to rum, in the act of last year.
This principle was a fair and a just one, and it was directly the contrary of the principle of the intended Canada bill.
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After this, he considered that he was perfectly justified in asserting that Parliament was ignorant of the intentions of the Government as to a Canada Corn Bill, when passing the present Corn Bill, that which was called by a high authority a "contract" between the landowners and the present Government, and which could not be in fairness set aside, broken through or violated by one of the contracting parties without a distinct previous announcement of the intention to do, and ample time being allowed for the re-consideration of so serious a measure.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid there was not one of their Lordships' regulations which was more wise and more worthy of being adhered to than that their Lordships should refrain from referring to former debates. He must remind them that what he said on a former occasion was that his right hon. Friend, the Member for Tamworth, did give notice of the intention of the Government to introduce a measure on the same principle as this as soon as a bill was passed by the Canadian legislature. He did not exactly recollect the precise terms that had been used. He admitted that it was not announced by him; but his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade bad made a similar statement in that House. He was not quite certain, but he thought some such measure had been distinctly announced.
Lord Wharncliffewas understood to say, that there had been an announcement by Sir Robert Peel and Lord Stanley of the intention to make an alteration as to the importation of corn from Canada, and it was deferred until the legislature of Canada had passed an act regulating the duty on corn. He might, also, add a few words as to what be had said on Thursday, in consequence of a question put to him by the noble Duke behind him, with respect to the intention of the Government to make an alteration in the Corn-laws. The next morning be was surprised to find that it was asserted he bad used words which he had not used. He did not take notice of this, as he supposed some other papers would have set the matter right, as they usually did. This misrepresentation, he found, had not only been commented upon by other papers, but he found that his Colleagues had been taunted, not for what he had said, but for what be bad not said. The question that had been asked him by the noble Duke

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behind him (the Duke of Buckingham) was whether the Government had any intention of making an alteration in the Corn-laws, when he declared that " the Government had no intention to make any alteration with respect to the Corn-law." He believed, these were the very words he had used. He thought he could appeal to noble Lords that that was what he said, or, at all events, that such was the meaning of what he did say; but the newspapers thought fit to add the words, during the present Session"—that their Lordships must perceive made a very great difference. He had only now to repeat that which he had already said— that the Government had no intention of making any alteration in the Corn-law.
The Duke of Buckingham:Certainly the noble Lord never made use of the words, " this Session."

RAILWAYS — REPEAL AGITATION (IRELAND).
The Marquess of Clanricarderose to move that the second report of the Railway Commissioners for Ireland be reprinted. He did not wish the maps and diagrams which accompanied the report to be reprinted, as that would put the country to a great expense, but merely the body of the report, which contained a great mass of information that might be understood without the accompanying maps and diagrams. He recommended their Lordships to peruse that report, which contained a great variety of statistical, geographical, and other information. He thought that the people of Ireland had a good right to complain that the system of employing them in public works which it recommended, and which had been begun, had not been carried out. The noble Earl who addressed their Lordships a few nights ago on the repeal of the Union, had, like many other persons, confounded two different things: the noble Earl had confounded the agitation for the repeal of the Union, which their Lordships had unanimously and justly condemned, and the feelings of the people at the conduct of the Imperial Parliament, which rather depended on repressing the expresion of opinion by measures of coercion, than on the measures of improvement which the Legislature and the Government had promised to adopt. Reference had been made the other evening to the joint Addresses of both Houses in 1834, and he would, with their Lordships'
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permission, read the concluding paragraph of that Address. The noble Marquess read the following passage: —
" In expressing to your Majesty our resolution to maintain the Legislative Union inviolate, we humbly beg leave to assure your Majesty that we shall persevere in applying our best attention to the removal of all just causes of complaint, and to the promotion of all well-considered measures of improvement."
Subsequent to that Address, various works were commenced in Ireland, and great improvements, as their Lordships knew, had been made in the river Shannon; but he must say, without meaning it in an offensive or invidious sense, that since that time all public works had been suspended. The Government had not done wisely, was the conclusion to which the people came, in not giving a proper direction to public undertakings, and in not encouraging the formation in Ireland of at least a railway. That might have supplied an opportunity for benefitting some part of Ireland. He did not expect that the Government should, as a general rule, advance the public money to promote useful works, except with great caution; but there were some circumstances which required a modification of that principle. The Government should not encourage the formation of railways undertaken for the profit of speculators, unless they were likely to afford remuneration, which was the real test of the success of the railway, and that the country required it. There were some matters existing in Ireland which rendered capitalists unwilling to invest their money in works in Ireland, unless they received some assurance from the Government, and that was, he thought, a fair subject for inquiry. He asked why it was that capitalists were ready to send their money abroad, unless it was because they mistrusted the continuation of tranquillity in Ireland? He must also say that they did not receive that encouragement which foreign governments gave to the investment of capital on such works, and the result was, that above 1,000,000 l. of English capital was now sunk in making railroads in France and in other parts of the continent. Capitalists preferred running the risk of employing their capital abroad to embarking it in works in Ireland. Government, if a speculation were a good one, might afford it encouragement in various indirect modes, and might give it assistance otherwise than by directly ad-

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vancing money. There was a speculation for continuing a railroad through Wales, which would promote a rapid communication with Ireland. He understood that the saving to the Government by this road would be not less than 80,000 l. a year; and he thought that money might be devoted to the repayment of any expense incurred in promoting improvement in Ireland. If the Government would take into its consideration the propriety of forming one main trunk of railway, they would find that the population and the number of towns in the south and the west of Ireland were sufficient to make it pay; at least there was good ground for believing that such a railway would be beneficial, were the Government to encourage its formation. When the Poor-law for Ireland was introduced into the other House of Parliament, it was said that it was the intention also to introduce measures to employ the population. Some works had certainly been carried on, but not enough. He would quote high authority to show that a Government should rely less on positive coercive laws than on the good feelings of the people: he would quote a passage from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman now at the head of the Government, which he delivered on the question of the repeal of the union in 1834. It was as follows:—
" One more appeal, and only one, I will make to the House. It is to their feelings, perhaps, rather than to their cold unimpassioned judgment; but the foundations of society and of civil government are weak indeed, unless they repose upon the warm feelings of the heart as well as upon the dictates of sober reason."
The Government would only do its duty to the country by taking into its consideration measures to satisfy and employ the people of Ireland. He thought that if the report he had adverted to were reprinted, their Lordships might see that a railway might be executed in Ireland with advantage to the country, and with great benefit to those engaged in it. The noble Marquess concluded by submitting his motion.
The Earl of Mountcashellsupported the motion, and thought that the reprinting of the report would be very useful. Wherever railways had been established, they had been of the greatest service to the country. They were progressing actively in France and Belgium, and other parts
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of the continent. He did not see why Ireland should not have those advantages extended to her. He could not help saying that if the Government did not give consideration to subjects of this kind, and show a desire to promote measures of such national importance, that that portion of the people of Ireland, who, he was sorry to say, showed such disaffection at the present moment, would be disposed to listen to those who came forward to say. that the Government of this country, did not care for the interests of the people of Ireland. He did not believe, that that was the case. He was sure, that if the Government took the matter up, capitalists would be found also who would be willing to take the matter up; and, he was sure, that the Irish people would come forward, and assist in such undertakings, according to their means. He trusted, that what had been said would not only direct the attention of the Government to the subject, but would also have the effect of directing the attention of capitalists to it also. Though the time was not most favourable, owing to the existence—which he much regretted—of agitation, yet he knew the character of the Irish people, and though no people were more easily excited, yet there were no people who sooner forgot that excitement. He hoped that the time was approaching when that excitement would disappear, and which would be the case if proper measures were taken. In the north of Ireland, railways were already in progress of construction, and he hoped before long to see railways undertaken in the south of Ireland, which, he believed, would be found most beneficial to that country.
Lord Broughamcould not avoid expressing the grief with which he perceived that obstacles were continually interposed so that all the measures Parliament could take for the improvement of Ireland—for the improvement of her natural resources —and Providence had blessed her with a greater measure of natural advantages than all the other parts of the empire —he could not avoid expressing his grief, that all improvement of her natural resources were impeded by obstacles which now prevented, and, as long as they existed, would for ever prevent the flow of capital towards that country; whilst there was no want of capital here, but, on the contrary, capital was so abundant in this country, that it was bursting forth in all directions,

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seeking employment, and absolutely panting to find a vent—the immense masses in which it was accumulated having beat down the interest of money to 3½, 3, 2¾, and to 2½ per cent., indicating a great abundance of capital ready to be employed in improving the natural resources of Ireland—but the temptation was all in vain; in vain was our surplus capital seeking to burst forth at all the pores of the country; in vain were capitalists panting to find investments for their money—sending it to France and other places abroad; in vain were all the natural resources of Ireland, and vain all the measures taken by Parliament to improve them, as long as the present agitation continued. The state of Ireland was so alarming, that no calculating, prudent man, would risk his capital there; and, till the present agitation were put down, there could be no disposition to embark capital in any works in Ireland; and, therefore, he said, that those were the best friends of Ireland, who endeavoured to put an end to agitation, and encouraged the application of capital to improve her resources, and those who, by continuing political agitation, kept the capital so much required, from flowing into Ireland, were Ireland's worst enemies.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that nobody could be more anxious than he was to see public works carried on for the improvement of Ireland, but he did not wish to see any such works carried on unless they held out an assurance of remuneration to those engaged in them. But did not his noble Friend say, that if there were any such prospects, there would be companies willing to undertake those works? The noble Earl who had addressed the House said, that works of this kind were progressing in the north of Ireland, where they were conducted by the enterprise of private individuals; and why was this, but that capitalists saw that they could invest money in the north of Ireland, with some hopes of remuneration, which they did not see from similar investments in the south? Would any one say, that Government would be justified in calling on Parliament to grant money for the purpose of assisting in undertakings from which no remuneration was to be expected He did not believe, that any Government, in the present state of that country, could call on Parliament for an advance of money to promote undertakings of that kind. He made this statement, that the
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poor of that country might be able to see what was their real interest, and that they might separate themselves from their soi-disant friends who were encouraging agitation for their own base and sordid purposes—men who well knew that the hopes that they held out were intended to delude, and that the expectations they raised, must end in disappointment. The people of that country were a shrewd and discerning people, and he hoped they would open their eyes, and would see the degradation and poverty which were caused by those who engaged them in agitation, under pretence of guiding them to better destinies. Those persons were the means not only of preventing the influx of British capital into Ireland, but they deprived the people of that country of the expenditure of their own natural protectors, the landlords of the country; which they did for the purpose of robbing the people of their miserable pittances, under the name of the O'Connell rent, and repeal rent, and other denominations of that kind. He was not sorry that the subject had been mentioned, because the public press would circulate the opinions that had been expressed by their Lordships, and he hoped that it would cause the people of Ireland to open their eyes to the wretchedness and degradation in which they were placed.
The Marquess of Clanricardedid not think, that his noble Friend had read the second report, as he assumed that the public works which he suggested, would not afford a remuneration. Now, he wanted the report to be in their Lordships' hands, for the purpose of showing, that on the contrary, a remuneration might be expected from some railways, and he believed, that the calculations of profit were understated. Since the time when the report was made, a great progress had been made in Ireland, and he believed, that at the present moment they might, calculate the remuneration much higher than it was laid down in the report. The noble Lord opposite had assigned as a reason against undertakings of this kind, the existence of that agitation against which that House, and the other House of Parliament had, the other night, expressed so clear and unanimous an opinion, and in which he had been joined by his noble and learned Friend with so much eloquence. It was very true that that agitation was a reason why capitalists

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should not be inclined to embark their capital, but it was very different from the other reason alleged that these undertakings would not give remuneration. He did not wonder at the existence of those fears on the part of capitalists, though he very much regretted their existence. Those who knew Ireland well knew that those feelings were very much exaggerated, and that those fears, to a great extent, were groundless. He had conversed with many English capitalists—with men who had embarked money in speculations in Ireland, and he was sure that all of them would say, that the agitation in that country had not directly affected their speculations. They might, perhaps, have been injured indirectly by the existence of agitation, but they had not suffered directly. He lamented the agitation that existed as much as any one, but at the same time he was convinced that an outlay discreetly made in Ireland—with prudence and discretion, and a proper regard to economy—would amply repay those who made it.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, he was as anxious as the noble Marquess could be to promote the welfare of Ireland, but he did not think that the present was the moment when their Lordships should occupy themselves with such a measure as that proposed. Their first business should be to endeavour to find out the best mode of putting down the unfortunate agitation which now prevailed in that country, and which, judging from the course adopted by the individual, at the head of that agitation, seemed otherwise likely to continue. If the powers of the existing law were not sufficient for the purpose, it should be their business to pass such an act as would efficiently prevent those meetings of so dangerous a character, which were now taking place in Ireland.
Lord Campbelldeeply deplored the agitation now prevalent in Ireland, and was as anxious as any man, in or out of the House, to continue intact the union between Great Britain and Ireland; and it was precisely for that reason that he now rose to express his opinion that the use of harsh language, or the adoption of harsh proceedings, would not be found such efficient means for putting an end to that agitation, as kindly and temperate remonstrances, an appeal to the reason of the Irish people, and a beneficial and practical
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course of conciliation. In his view of the matter, harsh language and harsh proceedings would but make matters worse.
The Earl of Devonhad no apprehension that any unconstitutional means would be had recourse to for putting an end to the unhappy agitation referred to: the powers of the constitution would be found amply sufficient for the purpose. The noble Marquess near him had said this was not the proper time for proposing public works for Ireland. Now, he was not going to enter into the general question of the policy of advancing the public money for the furtherance of these works; but he would venture to say, and he thought every nobleman in the House, except the noble Marquess, would agree with him, that the finding employment for the rural population of Ireland would do more to put down the prevalent agitation than any other single measure that could be adopted. The working men of Ireland would much rather be occupied in earning a livelihood for themselves and their families, than be assisting in the agitation which still further distressed and impoverished them.
The Marquess of Londonderrythought, that Ireland required the strong arm of the law to keep it tranquil. As to conciliation, he certainly thought that Parliament could not be charged with a deficiency in this respect. For the last two years, every attempt had been made at conciliation; their Lordships saw with what effect. No means of employment would detach the organization that was now being established. He did not think that Ireland could be tranquillized, unless they had recourse to more determined measures.
Lord Broughamsaid, his noble and learned Friend complained of the use of hard language. Was it harsh language to say, that the men who made Ireland unlike any other country on the face of God's earth, at this moment, for agitation, for excitement, for everything short of, he might almost say, rebellion—to say, that these men were—he had used no harsh language about them, he had made use of no epithets, but he had ventured moderately to state his opinions that these persons were the enemies of the country in which they prevented English capital, from being employed, of the country which they had placed in an unheard of condition. Their Lordships were not to use "harsh language;" were not to say that

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those who placed Ireland in such a condition that she could hardly be in a worse, were the enemies of Ireland; but their Lordships were to be held up-held up collectively and individually, as parties- his noble and learned Friend among them -as the bitterest enemies of Ireland. True, his noble and learned Friend had not as yet been vituperated like some other noble Lords, by name; he had not as yet arrived at that distinction; but 6ther noble Lords had been named, and the noble and learned Lord himself, unless he rejected the title of Whig, must admit himself to be included among those who had been held up to public execration, on the other side of the water, as " the paltry Whig faction-the constant enemies of Ireland." The way in which they had proved themselves "the constant enemies of Ireland" was just by remaining out of office, with Earl Grey at their head, for a quarter of a century, for this sole reason-that they would not accept office while they were refused Roman Catholic emancipation. Such had been Earl Grey's manifestation of " constant, inveterate hatred of Ireland, dictated," it was added -" by sordid views of his own interest"- his own interest having been obviously eminently promoted by remaining out of office for twenty-five years, on the sole account of Ireland. He was anxious to relieve himself from the imputation that he thought of recommending unconstitutional remedies for this great disease. It must be met by constitutional remedies. The experience of all ages and of all free nations taught them that the more the constitution of a country was assailed, the more hostility it met with from any given quarter, the more incumbent was it upon those who held the reins of Government, and upon the Legislature, to stand by the principles of the constitution, and only to apply constitutional remedies to the evils which afflicted, or the dangers which threatened the community. He held it to be the most constitutional of all acts to prevent the breach of the public peace, by all the means which the law placed at the disposal of the Crown; and he held it to be the duty of the constitutional sovereign of this county to exercise those powers, in order to prevent the severance of the empire, and the breach of the public peace, to stay discontent ere it blazed forth as rebellion; and he held those answerable for that rebellion who, being
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armed with the powers of the constitution, did not duly exercise those powers when ! the occasion demanded it.If the existing powers were not sufficient,new powers must be given, but powers always of a ! strictly constitutional character; nor must I these be demanded, unless the Government I showed that the means already at their i disposal were not sufficient. Was it an I unconstitutional measure to strike a magistrate from the commission of the peace who should so far forget his duty as to I attend and lend his sanction to a meeting called for the purpose of promoting an agitation such as that in question. Lord Plunket did not think it was, for he struck Mr. Butler out of the list of deputy-lieu- tenants, for attending such meetings. If magistrates chose to attend, let them give up their office. His noble and learned Friend talked of appeals to reason; reason would have but very little weight against I passion, in an assembly of 30,000 or 40,000 people. No! not when he looked at these immense assemblages, and the (manner in which they were got together; he was convincedthat they were summoned not for discussion, or to hear reason, butfor thesethree main objects among others-to create a feeling of uneasiness and apprehension throughout the j country at large; to alarm the landlords in particular; and so to intimidate peaceable people by these tumultuous meetings and violent speeches, as to make it seem, and be perilous for honest and loyal men to do their duty by keeping the peace and discountenancing agitation.And, in fact, it had become perilous in that country for a man to hold back, whatever his opinions might be; if he did hold back, from that moment he was a marked man, held up to general scorn, hatred, and vengeance. But it was said, that the leaders of this agitation were themselves men, whose interest it would be to keep the people from going beyond a certain point; that though some of them might be induced from commercial views, others from vanity and a sort of ambition, to get up this agitation, and place themselves at its head, yet that their own interest would teach them not to let their followers go too far; but these gentlemen, it might be, overrated their power over the people when they talked of stopping them short at any point they chose to select. It would be to very little purpose, after a man had thrown a barrel of gunpowder on the fire, to say "don't go.

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off." He was no alarmist, but this he would say, that he had heard alarm expressed at the present agitation by persons who had been the advocates of repeal— the most forward advocates, and great. agitators themselves. These ex-agitators felt alarm at the present state of Ireland, which was not confined, therefore, to the enemies of repeal, who had never polluted themselves with such courses. Whilst men were men, and capital was capital, no money would flow into Ireland till an end was put to the agitation now existing there.
The Duke of Wellingtonshould not have thought it necessary to address their Lordships beyond expressing the mere intimation of his assent to the motion, had it not been for the turn which the discussion had taken, and which rendered it incumbent on him to say a few words. He had drawn their Lordships' attention a few nights back to the joint address of the two Houses of Parliament upon the subject at the union; and he was obliged to the noble Marquess for having directed their Lordships' attention more particularly to the latter words of that address. He was delighted that the noble Marquess had drawn their attention to those words, and he begged leave to state, that he was convinced, and he felt it strongly at the time the noble Marquess was reading the extract—he was convinced that Parliament had acted in full conformity with the assurances then given to his Majesty on the throne; and he would add, that those persons who were now honoured with her Majesty's confidence, at the same time that they intended to carry into execution that part of the address, were firmly determined also to carry into execution the other part of the address referred to, when- ever the occasion arose. As to the re- marks which were made upon their Lordships elsewhere, he was one of those animadverted upon, and he was glad to find himself upon this occasion in such extremely good company. For himself, he could only say that he had been for a very great number of years in the habit of treating such criticisms and such assaults with the smallest possible attention, for he should continue to do his duty to the best of his ability, in the service of his Sovereign, or elsewhere, and continue to treat the language referred to with as little attention as heretofore; and he recommended noble Lords on both sides of the House to follow his example in this respect.
Lord Campbell,in explanation, said, he retained his opinion as to the impolicy of harsh language being used in this matter. He begged to assure his noble and learned Friend that it was and ever would be his pride to rank himself among the Whig party. He did not altogether know whether his noble and learned Friend wished to be understood as also still belonging to that party—sometimes it would almost appear not; but he would, at all events, advise his noble and learned Friend, however great his talents might be in other respects, not to attempt to vie in invective with the individual so much referred to, for, although his noble and learned Friend's powers in that particular were by no means limited, he might find himself worsted.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.