Lords Sitting of 17 March 1843

Preamble
MINUTES. BILLS. Public. —2a. Coroners Inquests.
3a. and passed:—Attornies and Solicitors.
Private.—2a. Cambrian Iron and Spelter Company.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Archbishop of Canterbury, arid the Bishop of Bangor, from Bridgewater and the Isle of Man, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. —By Earl Stanhope, from New Lanark, against Import Duties on Corn, Tea, and Sugar. —By the Same, from St. Leonard's (Shoreditch), against the Income Tax. —Also from G. R. W. Baxter, for Inquiry into the Working of the Poor-Laws. —Also from Isaac Ironsides, (Sheffield), against Machinery, and for Relief.— From Harmoney Hall, near Stockbridge, for an Inquiry into Socialism.— From Nottingham, for Abolition of Imprisonment for Debt.

PUBLIC DISTRESS—MACHINERY
Earl Stanhopepresented a petition from the calico and stuff block printers of Lancashire, Cheshire, and Derbyshire, complaining of distress, and attributing their sufferings to the unrestricted use of ma chinery. He begged especially to direct the attention of their Lordships to that petition.
Lord Broughamdeeply deplored, as must every one, the sufferings of the petitioners, but he Was surprised that his noble Friend, with his accomplished understanding, should suppose that these sufferings were occasioned by the use of machinery. It was entirely a delusion to suppose that that was the cause. The
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noble Earl had better bring the question distinctly forward, instead of dealing in insinuations which only fostered the delusion, when he would assuredly be satisfied of his error.
Earl Stanhopesaid, he knew if he did so he should be prostrated, not by arguments, but by numbers. It was very well for those, again, who supported the New Poor-law to challenge so boldly its opponents to bring forward a motion for its repeal, and be defeated; but so long as grievances so heavy continued, discontent, if not disturbance, would remain. It might be, that those poor people who were out of employ entertained some erroneous opinion; but of this, they could hardly be ignorant—that they were suffering from penury and destitution. The appalling fact that I-10th of the population were in a state of pauperism, there was no answering; and although the noble and learned Lord (whom it was equally agreeable to hear, whether in mood pathetic or pleasant) might easily deal with the subject in a semi-facetious manner, and talk of "delusion," the distress was not less dreadful, and the mode of tracing it to a cause so palpable as the diminution of the means of employment far too obvious. The noble and learned Lord should bear in mind, that it Was not such instruments as saws, or any tools worked by manual labour, of which the complaint was made, but machinery worked by steam.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, inquiries like that suggested by the noble Earl had repeatedly taken place—[Earl Stanhope. —" I am aware of the handloom weavers."] — and it was to be hoped that the result had been to dissipate the delusion that the ultimate effect of machinery was other than beneficial to a country. Assuredly, if machinery were to be put a stop to— [Earl Stanhope; I did not propose that.] or not allowed to be developed to the utmost possible extent, the only consequence would be infinite injury to the nation. Still, it was not less true that the immediate effect of machinery was to displace labour, and, by depriving multitudes of the means of employment, to increase the distress of the poorer classes. Not that this could be to any considerable extent the cause of existing distress, seeing that machinery had been gradually extending its influence and operation during half a century, though more espe-

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cially so in the last twenty or thirty years. It was It to be doubted, that when the cotton trade—for instance the spinning-wheel which used to be plying at every cottage door was removed, and the whole of our cotton manufactured by some half-dozen large houses—it was not to be doubted that the great diminution of manual labour must follow. This could not of course, be altered (as it was impossible to recur to the former state of things), but must be left, as would ultimately be the case, to correct itself. Meanwhile there could be no question that, the operation of machinery being thus to concentrate manufactures into large monopolies, the condition of the people, so materially affected thereby, was well worthy of the deepest consideration more particularly so as the result was to substitute, even in the manual labour retained, that of women and children instead of adults.
Lord Broughamwas perfectly aware that the immediate effect of machinery was to diminish employment; but its ultimate result (of which alone he spoke) was ever to increase it as had been strikingly exemplified in the cotton manufacture, and even as to its immediate effect, it was rather to transfer than to destroy the means of employment, seeing that the economy of capital it produced encouraged the investment of money in other undertakings: and, Unless it could be shown (which was impossible) that capital could in any way be employed without, directly or indirectly, employing labour, this must be beneficial to the working classes, independently of other and weightier considerations.

CHINA TRADE.
The Marquess of Lansdowne,in moving for the production of the correspondence between her Majesty's Plenipotentiary and the British merchants at Canton, desired to preface the motion by a few observations directing the attention of her Majesty's Government and of Parliament to a very important subject, the position and prospects of our commercial relations with China. No man invested with any ordinary ability for insight into the future would fail to discern that we were on the eve of a more momentous movement in respect to our connections with the east than had ever yet occurred in the history of this country. The effect of the close of that warfare with China—which had been commenced by the resist-
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ance her Majesty's Government had felt it their duty to offer to unjust and unreasonable demands—had been to open the means of infinitely extending the intercourse between the civilization of the west and the immense population of that part of Asia, the most densely populated country in the world; and it could not be doubted that the progress of this intercourse would only be beneficial in proportion as the impression produced by our military and naval prowess was kept up deepened, and perpetuated, by the good faith and discretion with which our commercial relations with China were conducted. It required not much penetration to foresee that unless—by means which Parliamentary interposition could alone effectually furnish—those relations were conducted in a judicious manner, the most baneful and dangerous result must speedily follow. Hongkong, it appeared, was to be made a free port in every sense of the word. He hoped so, for he thought that this was a peculiarly eligible occasion for convincing the world that we desired not to base our interests on monopoly. But this port—the emporium of our Chinese commerce—being thus free for the resort of all whom any motives of gain might lead there, would speedily become crowded by a most miscellaneous population, which, in the absence of efficient control, would be dangerous to the tranquility of our connexions with China. Their Lordships might have been amused already with some indications of the rapid advance of this new settlement—among which was the announcement of a theatre with "actresses whose virtues surpassed even their accomplishments." But it would hardly be expected that, amidst an indiscriminate resort from every country the virtues of all should thus be in advance of their abilities. Even at the moment he was speaking there was that at work in China which must cause misrepresentations between the population of China and ourselves. There would be daily quarrels arising, which would be enough to produce the most mischievous consequences. In some of the papers to which he had alluded it appeared, that after the late attack on the factory at Canton by the mob, associations were formed for the avowed purpose of expelling the barbarians—meaning the English, thus showing the spirit of hatred which was abroad against us and proving the necessity of the utmost caution. He

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wished to impress upon her Majesty's Government the necessity of legislating even during the present Session, for the purpose of creating such an authority in that country as was absolutely necessary; in his opinion even an imperfect act would be better than none at all. In 1838 the then Government proposed a bill for the purpose of establishing a court at Canton but it was strenuously opposed by a right hon. Baronet now high in her Majesty's Council, upon the ground that the Chinese government had given no authority for it, and would not recognize it. That ground was now removed, for the expediency of such a tribunal had been recognized by the emperor, at all events by the Chinese authorities. If such an authority as he had pointed out were not established, a year would not pass without a recurrence of such scenes as had unfortunately been witnessed at Canton of late. The noble Marquess concluded by moving for the papers mentioned.
The Earl of Aberdeenwas not aware of any objection to the production of the papers asked for by the noble Marquess the more especially as they had already been made public. He entirely concurred in all that had fallen from the noble Marquess as to the necessity of establishing a sufficient controlling authority in China, in order to protect our intercourse with that country, for unless it were conducted with the utmost prudence and discretion on the part of those trading to the Chinese ports, we might soon be embroiled again with the Chinese Government. But it must be remembered that the treaty had not yet been ratified. He could assure the noble Marquess and the House, that as soon as the ratification of the treaty was received no time would be lost in preparing to carry into effect all measures that would be necessary to give security and permanency to our relations with China; but at present it would be premature. The island of Hongkong, when fully ceded to her Majesty, would be in the situation of a Crown colony, and her Majesty, by the advice of her Council, might establish courts there without the intervention of Parliament, but she could not do so in any of the five ports to which we were to have access. It was essential that any one filling the high station of her Majesty's representative in China should possess the confidence of Government and, he was happy to say, that no one
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could better deserve it than the distinguished and gallant officer now in that country. They could not proceed to legislate without further information, and, as they could not communicate with him under five or six months, he did not propose to bring in any measure in the present Session.
The motion agreed to.
House adjourned.