Lords Sitting of 6 March 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. Private.—3a. Lady Fleetwood's Naturalization; Samwell's Name.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Duke of Buccleugh, from Dover, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.—By Lord Cottenham, from the county of Salop, and from Drogheda, for an Alteration of the Law of Debtor and Creditor; and against Imprisonment for Debt.—By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from a London Missionary Society, against Lord Ellenborough's Procla mation.—From Nairn, for Inquiry respecting the Parochial Schoolmasters in Scotland; and for Altering the Instruments of Sasine.

INSANITY AND CRIME.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in the event of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, or his noble and learned Friend, the

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Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, not agreeing that it was necessary to bring in a measure, or to make any proposal relative to the state of the law relating to the crimes of persons alleged to be labouring under partial insanity, he should feel it his bounden duty to call the attention of their Lordships to the subject. He would do so with the more reluctance, because any such proposition would come with much better grace from either of his noble and learned Friends. It was only the present emergency of the case which induced him to take it up. But if either of the noble and learned Lords would take the matter in hand, he would be most deeply anxious to render them the best assistance in his power.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he was happy his noble and learned Friend had mentioned the subject. He (the Lord Chancellor) had already turned his attention to it with a view of discovering if anything could be done to remedy the evil. He was about to enter into communication with those persons who were most likely to afford correct information upon the subject. Whether the course he had commenced would be productive of any practical effect or not, he could not then say, but he would take an early opportunity of again adverting to the subject. Meanwhile, he should be happy to co-operate with his noble and learned Friend.
Lord Broughamsaid, that nothing could be more satisfactory to the country than the statement just made by his noble and learned Friend. He should be most happy to communicate with him at all times, which might best suit his convenience and that of his Colleagues. There were, perhaps, reasons why his noble and learned Friend, the Lord Chief Justice, from his high position in the administration of the criminal law, should undertake the subject.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, had he been aware, that the noble and learned Lord intended taking up the question, he would have communicated to him the course Government intended to pursue.
Lord Denmansaid, he had not at all turned his mind to the consideration of this subject, but certainly he had formed an opinion, arising out of late events, that it would be highly proper the matter should be made the subject of a most careful consideration. The more he re-
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flected on the question, the more he was of opinion that it was highly proper such a measure should be brought forward by her Majesty's Government. He need not say on the part of himself and the rest of her Majesty's judges, if her Majesty's Government thought their counsel or testimony could in any degree be useful in framing the measure, they should be happy to afford it. For himself, he should esteem it a most important duty to give every advice or assistance in his power.
Lord Campbellsaid, they could all have but one common object in furthering such a law, and he rejoiced, that the consideration of her Majesty's Government was about to be given to it. He should not have said a single word on the present occasion, if he had not apprehended some misunderstanding might arise from what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Brougham). His noble Friend had used the words partial insanity, and it might be thought, that persons labouring under partial insanity, were relieved from all responsibility. That, he apprehended, was not the law. Unless it were proved that insanity existed at the time the act was committed, and that such insanity might be duly considered the immediate cause of the criminal act, there was at present no immunity from conviction and punishment. He hoped it would be considered by the noble Lord on the Woolsack, whether some measure might not be taken for apprehending and putting into safe custody those labouring under this dangerous state of mind. There might be great difficulty in convicting persons who were not in a state of mind to be responsible for their actions; but it was monstrous to think that society should be exposed to the dreadful dangers to which it was at present subjected, from persons in that state of mind going at large.
Lord Broughamexplained, that what he meant by "partial insanity" was more properly expressed by the word "mono mania." Monomania did not mean that partial insanity which went and returned at various times, but the mind was at all periods under its influence. He had merely desired to distinguish the state of mind he meant to describe from total and absolute deprivation of reason.
Subject at an end.

CORN-LAWS.
Lord Monteaglesaid

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he had postponed his motion several times on account of the indisposition of a noble Lord, a Member of the Government, who was naturally desirous, and would be expected by the public to take a part in the discussion. He was in hopes to have heard to-day that the noble Lord would have been able to have been in attendance; but, from what he learned, he was afraid, that the noble Lord was not yet sufficiently recovered to attend. The nature of the motion, which was for a committee of inquiry, rendered it inexpedient to postpone it much longer. In fixing a day for the discussion, it was painful to do so in any way that would seem calculated to hurry that noble Lord, but he now felt it his duty to give notice that he would bring it forward, not on Thursday next, which was the day the noble Earl had himself named, but on Tuesday next.
The Duke of Wellingtonfeared his noble Friend would be unable to attend on the day fixed by the noble Lord, and what was more, he could not say when he would be able. No doubt the question was in the hands of the noble Lord; but, at the same time, their Lordships would see how desirable it was, on a question of such importance, that his noble Friend, filling the particular department he did in her Majesty's Government, should be present during the discussion.

TOWNSHEND PEERAGE.
The Earl of Shaftesburybrought up the report of the committee appointed to search for precedents, with respect to the petition of the Marquess Townshend. The committee reported, that they had searched for precedents, and that there was no proceeding competent for the relief of the petitioner, except by bill, and they recommended, if the House entertained the claim of the petitioner, that the bill should be in the nature of a private one, in behalf of Charles Vere Ferrars Townshend, commonly called Lord Charles Townshend.
Adjourned.