Lords Sitting of 23 June 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.ߞ1a Chelsea Hospital.
2a Princess Augusta's Annuity; Roman Catholic Oath; Moveable Property (Scotland).
3a. and passed:—Assessed Taxes.
Private.—2a Drumpeller Railway; Eglwys-rhos Inclosure; Milne's Free School.
Reported.— Southampton Cemetery; Topsham Improvement; Ballochney Railway; Bardney Drainage.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Yarborough, from Great Grimsby, against the Canada Corn Bill. —From Clifden, in favour of the Schools connected with the Church Education Society (Ireland).

SERVIA.
Lord Beaumontwould take the opportunity of putting a question to the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) on

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the subject of Servia. Since he had last brought this subject under their Lordships' attention, Russian influence had completely triumphed in the Ottoman councils, and Russia had, moreover, trumpeted forth her triumph by conferring honours, not only on her own agents, but also on the agents of other Governments, who had been instrumental in bringing that triumph about. It had also been stated that persons in the interest of Russia had been sent to the Pacha of Belgrade, directing him to proceed to the election about to take place. Servia, in short, had been reduced to the same dependent condition as Moldavia. This was a direct infringement of the independence of the Ottoman empire, which England was bound to defend. Under these circumstances he wished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he was willing to lay on the Table such papers as would be calculated to explain the course of the English ambassador at Constantinople?
The Earl of Aberdeenhad no objection to the information which the Government possessed on the subject being laid upon their Lordships' Table, but he begged to abstain from placing, that information upon their Lordships' Table at the present moment, because there was an election now going on in the country mentioned. As soon as that election was settled the papers should be laid before Parliament.

WINTER GAOL DELIVERY.
Lord Denmansaid, it had been intimated that it was in the contemplation of her Majesty's Government to appoint judges to go a third circuit in order to obviate the inconvenience and injustice which had been said to result from keeping prisoners confined during the interval between the summer and spring assizes. A vote of the House of Commons had been taken for the purpose of meeting the additional expenses which would thus be incurred. He thought the step was one far too important to be made upon the responsibility of Government; and he expressed that opinion the more confidently, because he felt assured that such an alteration could not be made useful or effectual, without some new powers being given by the Legislature. He felt strongly for parties who might be subjected to a long imprisonment before trial, and who might come out of the dock with a verdict of "Not guilty;" but at the
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same time it ought not to be forgotten that the convenience of many persons was implicated in the change, and that not only the sheriffs of counties, but the gentry and tradesmen who were to serve on the juries, were under the new system to be called together a third time in the year, no doubt to their great personal inconvenience and pecuniary loss. When he stated that such change could not be made useful without a Legislative enactment he meant this—that as there was a Central Criminal Court for the metropolitan districts, where sittings were held at frequent intervals, so the Queen might he empowered by Parliament to issue a commission for certain districts in the provinces according to the actual necessities of the case, according to the pressure of prisoners in the gaols, and as the general state of the country might require. Under this plan a district court might be created, at which the attendance of only one sheriff and one set of jurors and other officers, would be required for the purpose of clearing the gaols. He was the more called on to make this statement to their Lodrships, because it seemed to him impossible that such an arrangement as that proposed could be carried into effect without the creation of additional judges. He knew it was often said that the judges had much leisure time on their hands, but, so far from this being the case, he could assure the House, that from the commencement of November to the end of August many of the judges had not an hour which they could call their own. It was a subject of not 'infrequent complaint even now that judgment in important cases were delayed, but he really thought that there was no delay which was not perfectly consistent with the occupation of the judges' time in the consideration of other business. He thought the subject was one which should be taken up cautiously, and he was also of opinion that all the powers connected with the new arrangement should be powers proceeding directly from the Parliament. He did not wish in these observations to suggest any plan of his own, but he did desire that no scheme should be adopted without that attention being given to it of which the subject was so eminently deserving.
The Duke of Richmondthought it of great importance that there should be a winter circuit. When the judges now went to deliver a gaol, they often found a man

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brought up for trial who had laid many months in prison, and upon whom they were consequently induced to pass a Very lenient sentence. That man, when the period of his punishment expired, went home to his village and there gave out that the judge had considered his offence so trivial that he had only passed a very light sentence. A comparison was forthwith drawn between sentences at assizes and sentences at quarter sessions, which was invariably disadvantageous to the latter, because the facts were not understood. At the same time he admitted the importance of the noble Lord's observations. As he understood him, if it was found there were only six prisoners in Maidstone gaol whilst there were a large number in Lewes gaol, the prisoners at the former would at the third assizes go to the latter place to take their trial. If that plan were to be put in practice, the noble Lord would see that there must be some addition to the county expenses in the shape of charges for conveyance of prisoners and witnesses, although at the same time there would be undoubtedly a saving of expense and inconvenience to judges, sheriffs, and other functionaries. On the whole, he thought that some arrangement might be made such as that the noble Lord had suggested, and, at all events, his recommendations were worthy of attentive consideration.
Lord Campbellexpressed his general concurrence in what had fallen from the noble Lord the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, but suggested that means might be taken to avoid any increase to the present number of judges. A professional chairman, for example, might be appointed to courts of quarter sessions, or, if this suggestion were objectionable, the Irish judges who had very little to do might be brought over here to assist the adjudication of our laws. This last idea might, he thought, deserve particular attention. The state of the law was the same, and there was no earthly reason why a judge should not adjudicate as well in York as in Cork. Such an arrangement as an interchange of judges might, too, possibly draw closer the bonds of union between the countries.

ASSESSED TAXES—PROBATE DUTIES.
Lord Wharncliffemoved the third reading of the Assessed Taxes Bill,
Lord Hathertonsaid, he had to offer a
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suggestion which was somewhat germane to this bill. By the 55th George 3rd. a probate duty was payable on all personal property from 20 l. to 1,000,000 l. Now their Lordships were aware that there were several cases of personal property to which the duty attached, and which were infinitely beyond a million. He had frequently endeavoured to ascertain from old Members of Parliament what induced the Government and the Legislature to fix such a limit, but he could never hear any satisfactory reason for adhering to this amount. An attempt had been made by the late Government to remove the evil, but it had not been successful.
Lord Monteaglecould confirm all that had been said by his noble Friend. There was also in the present state of the law the additional anomaly that where the property happened to be situate in York and Canterbury probate duty was paid for that which existed in each. There arose a case, while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer—a case where a man left a property considerably exceeding a million, but as it happened to be in the two provinces, the present law made the maximum duty payable in each.
Lord Wharncliffewould make known these suggestions to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer who would not be displeased at finding a new expedient for gaining more money. Common sense seemed to dictate that whatever was the amount of personal property it should pay a proportioned duty. He believed the present anomaly arose from the circumstance, that when the law was made, no one anticipated there could be a larger personal estate than a 1,000,000 l.
Bill read a third time.
Their Lordships adjourned.