Lords Sitting of 28 February 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—2a. Coal Venders Penalties. 3a. and passed:—Transported Convicts; Forged Exchequer Bills.
Private.—2a. Earl of Leicester's Estate.
Reported.—Jackson's Divorce.
PRTITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Bandon, from Bantry, Ballyhige, Killury, Ratoo, and Bandon, for Altering the Irish Poor-law; and from Bandon, against the Medical Charities Bill (Ireland).—By Lord Redesdale, from Launceston, for Altering the Poor-law Act (England).—From the Debtors in Stafford Gaol, against the Laws respecting Imprisonment for Debt.—By the Bishop of Chester, from Frome, Durham, Shenstone, and the Dean and Chapter of Durham, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
Lord Wharncliffe Lord Wharncliffe laid on the Table, pursuant to order of the House, copies of any communications from or on behalf of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, to her Majesty's Government, respecting the disputes now subsisting between the ecclesiastical and civil courts in Scotland, and of the answers thereto.
Lord Campbellsaid, since the answer which had lately been given in another place by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, to a question put to
2
him respecting the intentions of Government as to legislation on the Scottish Church question, it had been confidently rumoured, that in consequence of subsequent events in Scotland, Ministers had changed their minds, and had now resolved to bring in a bill, making concessions to the Church on the matters in dispute between the ecclesiastical and civil courts. If there were no foundation for this report, it was of great importance that it should be corrected, for so long as it prevailed, it must have a most unfavourable tendency.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he knew of no alteration in the intentions of Government since the occasion of which the noble and learned Lord spoke.

CREDITORS AND DEBTORS.
Lord Cottenham, on presenting a petition complaining of the heaviness of the costs in bankruptcy and insolvency proceedings, took occasion to say that he had been subjected to great blame for delaying the second reading of the Creditors and Debtors Bill, which he had laid on the Table within a few days of the meeting of

3
Parliament, with the view of passing a) measure for diminishing the expenses of such cases. Now, he wished to say, that he had not abandoned the measure, as he was accused of doing, but only postponed proceeding with it in order that he might see what course Government would take on the subject, and whether any measure would be introduced under the authority of the law officers of the Crown to remedy the evils of the present law.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, a bill had been introduced, at a late period last Session, for the purpose of transferring the jurisdiction of insolvency cases to the commissioners of bankruptcy. This bill passed; but considerable inconvenience had been experienced from its operation. To obviate the inconveniences felt, the law officers of the Crown were preparing a bill, which would carry out the principles of his noble and learned Friend's measure, and render it more effectual. Perhaps the better way would be to refer all the bills to a select committee, which might consider the whole subject of insolvency, with the view of amending the present system, and removing the evils which now attended it, or of reconstructing a new system. If his noble and learned Friends would lend him their aid in considering the subject, he had no doubt they would be able to produce a system free from the objections brought equally against that which was formerly established, and that which at present existed.
Lord Broughamthought the course suggested by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack a very advisable one. He wished to observe, that he had been himself deterred from proceeding with the measure he had introduced at the commencement of the Session, the Debtors and Creditors Bill, from the same cause as his noble and learned Friend (Lord Cottenham)—a wish to ascertain what were the intentions of Government.
Lord Cottenhamsaid he was particularly anxious to correct an evil which now pressed heavily on the unfortunate class of persons whom these bills would affect. It was now impossible for an insolvent debtor to take the benefit of the act without paying 51., which was a great burthen on the debtor himself, while it was a payment to the injury of his creditors.
The Lord Chancellorsaid he should communicate with the law officers of the
4
Crown in the preparation of the measure to which he had adverted, and then introduce it into that House, which would afford time to consider it properly in the course of the Session. With respect to the point just instanced by his noble Friend, it would be easy to correct the grievance by means of a short bill, which could he introduced and passed for that purpose. He would propose, that insolvent debtors should be discharged without paying their fees, unless their estate should produce the amount requisite.

RIGHT OF SEARCH—SLAVE-TRADE.
Lord Broughamrose to put a question to his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on a subject of very great importance at all times, but for particular reasons of especial interest at the present moment—the subject of the right of search, which existed under the treaties of 1831 and 1833, with France, and on which so many previous misconceptions had arisen on the other side of the Channel. He believed that, towards the middle of December, a commission was issued by his noble Friend to four persons, whom all must allow to be most competent to the task—Dr. Lushington, Captain Denman, Mr. Rothery, a proctor, and Mr. Brandinell, who were called upon to form and recommend to Government a code of instructions for the guidance of naval officers in examining suspected slave-ships, instructions which should have an uniform operation. He could not ask his noble Friend for a copy of the commission which had been issued, or the instructions delivered to the commissioners; but perhaps his noble Friend would have no objection to state whether he had been rightly informed in what he had now said, and whether any report had yet been made by those commissioners, or whether there was any expectation of a report being speedily received. He might venture to hope that the instructions recommended by them would be such as, when finally adopted by the Government, and transmitted to the cruisers to act upon, might be made public. No one circumstance, he was convinced, would tend more to satisfy the French people, their statesmen, and mercantile men, than a distinct knowledge of the instructions under which our cruisers were to act. No subject was more open in every part to misconstruction than this. Not only a

5
portion of the French press was in the pay of the colonists, but members in the French assemblies were in the receipt of large salaries as the agents of the slave islands, who of course took the view suggested to them by their constituents. He was sure, whatever the instructions were, they would be drawn up in a spirit of forbearance to the French navy, and regard for the just rights of French commerce, and with an anxious wish to remove every cause of collision between subjects of the two countries. He had no doubt that the persons entrusted with the duty to which he had referred would do everything in their power to render the chance of collision as little probable as it could be. The publication of the instructions would, he was sure, have the best possible effect elsewhere in allaying the irritation which now existed, and which, from all the accounts he received from Paris, he had reason to believe was very much on the decline already.
The Earl of Aberdeencould assure his noble and learned Friend that it was impossible for any man to be more desirous than he was, to take every possible means of removing or diminishing the extraordinary infatuation which had prevailed among a portion of the public in France connected with this subject. He had no doubt they would succeed in removing this prejudice, because he was convinced that the French nation generally were as sincerely desirous of putting an end to the slave-trade as we were ourselves; not, perhaps, at the price of such costly sacrifices, if not universal. Had it been otherwise, had this excitement been a pretext in order to cover any interested motives, we might have despaired of putting an end to it; but he could not doubt, with the intelligent that prevailed in that country, and the sincere desire generally entertained for the suppression of the trade, that it must give way in no long time to that benevolent desire which must be admitted to be our only motive for prosecuting this great object. He must say, however, that the instructions to which his noble and learned Friend had alluded on this occasion were not issued with any direct reference to the state of opinion in France. A commission, in fact, it was not; no formal commission had been issued. He had requested the Gentleman named by his noble and learned Friend—with whom he
6
begged to say it was a labour of love, for their services were rendered gratuitously—gentlemen whom he thought most competent to give him assistance in this matter—to revise all the instructions that had been issued for the last twenty years, under the various treaties which had been entered into on this subject, and to form from these one uniform system and code of instruction for the assistance of our officers commanding cruisers on this most difficult and responsible service. Naturally, in the course of time, many instructions had been issued which were now in some degree contradictory and inconsistent, and when we recollected the difficult service on which those officers were called to act, and the complicated nature of the treaties into which we had entered on this subject, which, in fact, were only communicated to the officers, without any instructions whatever for their guidance, it was impossible not to wonder that the cases of collision had not been more numerous. The officer was put in possession of these treaties, and left to deal with them as he best could. Looking to the events which had lately taken place, and the complaints that had arisen, he had been for some time labouring under a strong impression that we were bound to afford those gallant officers all the assistance in our power in the execution of so very difficult and responsible a duty as they had to perform. Therefore, he had requested those gentlemen, who, he was happy to find, met the approbation of his noble and learned Friend opposite, as he thought they must meet the approbation of the country—men most eminently qualified for the duty—to compose from the existing instructions and treaties such a system as would be best adapted to the purpose he had indicated. It was not only the contradictory nature of the instructions already issued, and the various obligations of the different treaties which were to be considered, but there were also questions of very general importance, affecting the law of nations, which arose in the execution of the services of our cruisers. Certainly the officers commanding them, however zealous, and however intelligent, could not always be expected to be able to decide correctly. Accordingly, on different occasions, there had been errors committed, and he held that in such cases we should do more to conciliate the good opinion and the assent of foreign powers to the course we were pursuing, by rendering prompt justice

7
whenever an error had been committed, than by taking any other course. It was wonderful how rarely cases of this kind had occurred, considering the nature of the service. Now, very rarely any deviation had taken place which could reasonably be complained of by any particular ties. He had anticipated his noble and learned Friend in desiring that those instructions should be such as might be made public to the whole world. For in this business we could have nothing to conceal; the more our motives were examined and our conduct inquired into, the more would they procure the assent and approbation of all those who were animated with the same disinterested desire of suppressing slavery as ourselves. These instructions, therefore, would be such as might be laid before the world, and he had no doubt they would produce all the great effect which his noble and learned Friend anticipated from them among the candid portion of the French public. Among those to whom his noble and learned Friend more particularly alluded, as persons interested in the slave-trade, this could not be expected. His noble Friend having given him notice of his intention to bring this subject before the House, he thought it might be satisfactory to his noble Friend and to the House to know, that in the course of last year the efforts made by this country had been signally successful in diminishing the extent of this traffic. He had brought with him a document, with the contents of which it would be most particularly gratifying to the House to be made acquainted. In one of the principal marts of this trade, the island of Cuba, he was happy to say it had greatly fallen off, and the conduct of the present Governor-general had been such as to merit the highest approbaton—nay, admiration—of every well-thinking man. The commissioners of Havannah, in their annual report made to him last month, regarding the state of the trade in the previous year, say,
"In presenting this report we cannot but, in the outset, express our gratification that, for the first time in the history of the commission, we are enabled positively to say, that good faith has been observed as regards the treaty by the superior government, and that the present captain-general has, so far as was personally in his power, fulfilled the promises he made in that respect on his first assumption of his command, in the beginning of 1841. In making this just acknowledgment of General Valdez's integrity, we must take also into con-
8
sideration the number of blacks declared to be emancipated by the treaty of mixed commission, whom he has put in possession of their liberty, instead of consigning them to a servitude amounting to slavery, according to the example of his predecessors."
He trusted that the efforts of the British Government to prevent the fitting out of slave vessels, and the sailing even of such as might be engaged for that trade, might now be considered to be crowned with success, and the trade, as hitherto carried on, to be nearly at an end. He held in his hand a return of the number of vessels equipped for the slave-trade in each of the last five years. In 1838, there were supposed to proceed from Havannah and the neighbourhood, 71 vessels; in 1839, the number was 59; in 1840, 54; in 1841, 31; in 184, only 3 vessels. The total number of slaves supposed to have been imported into the whole island, was, in 1838, 28,000; in 1839, 25,000; in 1840, 14,470; in 1841, 11,857; in 1842, 3,140. In 1837, the year previous to the commencement of this return, the number imported was believed to be 40,000. The negroes emancipated under the decree of the mixed commission had hitherto been kept in a state of servitude amounting almost to slavery, and former Governments had refused to release them, contrary to treaty. They were not slaves, but they had never enjoyed entire freedom. The present Governor-general had, in the course of last year, released upwards of 1,200, and put them in possession of their entire freedom; a number not very considerable still remained in a state of servitude. They might amount to about 300; but they also, there was no doubt, would be put in possession of their entire freedom. The Governor of Cuba also had, in the course of last year, made four or five seizures of crews of newly imported Africans, whom he had placed in freedom at once. It was known that the sacrifices which, in the performance of his duty, General Valdez had made, were to him the difference between great wealth and that poverty to which he had resigned himself, for General Valdez was a man of inflexible integrity, and was proud of his poverty, which he would not exchange for the guilt of riches acquired by such means as had been placed again and again within his reach. His noble Friend knew, he was sure, that this was the case, and that the Governor was, by the line he had followed, a loser to a great amount. If they had

9
the good fortune to see General Valdez continued in the Government of Cuba, no doubt would remain that the slave-trade would in a short time be extinguished.
The Earl of Clarendoncould not refrain from expressing very sincere satisfaction at the statement just made by his noble Friend. The reference of the laws and regulations for the conduct of the right of search to a commission of persons so able and in every way so well deserving of public confidence would meet with general approbation, and lead to the well-founded expectation that a code would be established under which the right of search would be exercised with an entire avoidance of collisions between the ships of the different countries, and without any interruption of international harmony and good feeling. He was glad that his noble Friend agreed with his noble and learned Friend near him as to the propriety of publishing the regulations. He believed nothing would go further to destroy the doubts which had hitherto existed among foreign nations as to the sincerity of England, and the purity of the motives by which she was actuated in abolishing the slave-trade. It was believed by some classes of persons abroad that her guiding principle was to ruin the prosperity of the colonies of our neighbours, and reduce them to what was believed to be the degraded and wretched level of our own possessions. Nothing would create a more general belief that we were acting in sincerity, and not from party motives, or from national jealousy. One ground of the distrust and ill-feeling against us among foreigners which prevailed on this question was, their total ignorance of the principles on which we proceeded, as well as of the regulations in use to give effect to the views of our Government. Therefore, he thought that to publish these regulations would be productive of great advantage, and would tend to remove the irritation that now existed abroad on this question. He had had the honour of knowing General Valdez well for several years, and could bear testimony that there was not a more honourable man living. He left his country for Cuba with an honest determination to put down the slave-trade. It was quite true that his predecessors had been in the habit of receiving large sums of money, not only for countenancing the slave-trade, but for affording it direct assistance. The price paid to the governor for each slave intro-
10
duced into the colony had been as much as an ounce of gold, which was equal to 3l. 16 s. 6d., and when it was borne in mind that as many as 40,000 slaves were introduced in one year, their Lordships might easily imagine what large fortunes the governors of Cuba had an opportunity of making by lending their assistance to the traffic. General Valdez had not taken one farthing, but remained as poor as when he went over to the colony, and was justly proud of his honourable poverty.
Lord Broughamrejoiced to hear such gratifying intelligence, which would afford the greatest satisfaction to those benevolent men who had exerted themselves so long and so strenuously for the suppression of the slave-trade. Many persons who were most anxious for its abolition had despaired of putting down the trade, except by the abolition of slavery in America or by the civilization of Africa. He was certainly satisfied that the abolition of slavery in America would be incompatible with a continuance of the slave-trade, and so, no doubt, would be the civilization of Africa; but he was not disposed to be idle himself or consent to the country doing nothing while waiting for a state of things that might not be realised for centuries. The statements of his noble Friend as to the effects of vigorous operations against the slave dealers, clearly proved how absurd these notices were which some entertained of all such labour being vain and fruitless. He congratulated the House on all that they had heard that evening, and he cordially joined in the eulogium which had been pronounced upon General Valdez.
The Earl of Haddington, though unwilling to prolong this discussion, felt that it would be unjust to the officers of the navy to allow the conversation to close without bearing his testimony to their good conduct. If their Lordships could but read the letters which those gentlemen were in the habit of writing home to the Admiralty, their Lordships would be able to form some idea of the zeal, caution, and forbearance which the officers of the navy were constantly exercising. He had no doubt that the most valuable results would be obtained from the new code of instructions drawn up by the commission, upon which it had afforded him the greatest satisfaction to place the name of captain Denman, whose services he highly appreciated, in compliance with the suggestion of his noble Friend.

ILLICIT DISTILLATION (IRELAND).
Lord Monteaglerose to move for further returns connected with the subject of illicit distillation in Ireland. When the increased duty on Irish spirits was enacted, he and several other noble Lords had placed a protest upon their Lordship's Journals, on the ground that the increased duly, by promoting a great increase of illicit distillation, would have a deteriorating influence on the morals of the population. It would have been much more gratifying to himself and to all those who had signed that protest if their prophesies had not been fulfilled. But what had been the result of the measure was sufficiently shown by the paper now on their Lordships' Table. In the year 1839, duty had been paid in Ireland on 10,815,000 gallons of spirits. In the last year the the quantity had diminished to 5,000,000 gallons, and the duty, which in the former year amounted to 1,200,000 l., had, in the latter been reduced to 900,000 l., so that a large augmentation of duty had actually led to a diminution of one-third in the revenue. In 1839, as he had said duty had been paid on 10,815,000 gallons, yielding a revenue of 1,200,000 l.. In the next year, 1840, there was an augmentation in the duty of 4d. a gallon, and the effect of that increased duty was to diminish the revenue. In the year just ended, duty had been paid only on 5,290,000 gallons. He had taken the liberty of stating last year, that the augmentation in the duty would tend to the multiplication of crime, and the paper he had begged leave to call for was intended to show the increase that had taken place in prosecutions. In the gaol of Lifford, in the county of Donegal, out of 70 convicted prisoners confined there, 50 had been found guilty of offences connected with illicit distillation. Governmnet could have no wish but to preserve the morals of the country; yet when once the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed his budget, it would be too late to bring this matter forward, and he (Lord Monteagle) thought it therefore right to take the earliest opportunity of calling their Lordships attention to the subject, which was one of far greater importance than a mere question of revenue. Nothing could be more likely to counteract the temperance movement in Ireland than an increase of illicit distillation. While a legal trade was carried on in spirits, the movement might continue;
12
but an illicit trade would be certain to arrest it. The noble Lord concluded by moving for a return of the prisoners confined in each gaol in Ireland on charges connected with illicit distillation.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, that the reduction in the quantity of spirits brought to charge and the falling off in the duty had commenced before the increased duty had been imposed. In 1839 duty was paid on 10,000,000 gallons, and in 1840 only on 7,000,000 gallons. Yet in 1839 or 1840 there had been no increase of duty. The diminution could not, therefore, have been altogether owing to illicit distillation.
Lord Monteaglesaid, that it was in 1840 that an increase of 4d. took place in the duty, which was raised from 2s. 4d. to 2s. 8d. a gallon.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, that it was only in the letter part of the year that the duty came into force, and yet there had been a diminution. At the same time, he was not prepared to say that the duty had not been carried too far.
The Marquess of Lansdownewas also of opinion that nothing was more likely to arrest the temperance movement than an increase of illicit distillation. The movement had reached its maximum last year. The whole effect of it was felt in the large towns, where the people were placed under the influence of public opinion. In villages, on the contrary, or among a scattered population, that influence was least felt, and in those parts of the country it was that temperance movement was now receding. By checking the fair trader and offering a bounty to the illicit distiller, their Lordships had inflicted a blow upon the temperance movement, which he felt assured they would themselves be grieved at.
The Duke of Wellingtondid not believe that there had been any increase of illicit distillation in consequence of the increase of duty. The noble Duke was also understood to deny that the revenue had been less productive in consequence of the last increase of duty. Last year the amount of revenue received had been 904,000 l., and in the preceding year it had been 864,000 l.
The Earl of Mountcashellsaid, that illicit distillation had of late increased in the South of Ireland to a frightful extent, and was producing the worst effects on the morals of the country. He was certain that if the subject were not taken up by

13
the Parliament this Session, it would force itself on the attention of both Houses at no distant period.
Lord Monteaglesaid, that in choosing the series of years he had selected for the returns on the Table, he had been actuated by a wish to deal fairly with the present Government, by showing that the measures adopted by his (Lord Monteagle's) late colleagues had been attended by similar effects. In 1822, Lord Liverpool reduced the duty from 5s. l0 d. to 2s. 4d., and, in consequence of that reduction, the consumption was doubled. In 1826 the Government ventured on an increase of 10 d. in the duty, and this was followed by a reduction of two millions in the quantity of spirits on which duty was paid. In 1830 Mr. Goulbourn increased the duty to 3s. 4d., and this was followed by a further reduction in the quantity on which duty was paid. Lord Althorp reduced the duty to 2s. 4d., and the consequence was an increase of revenue, as well as the quantity of spirits distilled.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.