Lords Sitting of 24 February 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—1a Courts of Equity (India).
2a Pound Breach and Rescue; Forged Exchequer Bills; Transported Convicts.
Reported.—House of Lords Oaths.
Private—2a Jackson's Divorce.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Duke of Buccleugh, from the Daan and Chapter of Si. Peter's, Westminster, and from Walsall, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.

POUND BREACH
Lord Beaumont Lord Beaumont moved the second reading of the Pound Breach and Rescue Bill, which the noble Lord said, was to extend the same protection to cattle impounded for trespass on enclosed lands as by the existing law, was given to cattle found straying on highways.
Lord Campbellsaid, if his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack had read the bill, and approved of it, he (Lord Campbell) should not offer any opposition to the present motion. The bill proposed to make that a crime which, as the law stood at present, was only a misdemeanour; and he must own that he looked with great jealousy to such an extension of jurisdiction.
The Lord Chancellorwas not acquainted with the provisions of the bill, but he would suggest that the bill might be read a second time now, and might be fully considered on the motion for going into committee.
Bill read a second time.

THE NAVY.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, the noble Earl opposite had given notice, yesterday evening, of a motion for that evening, the object of which was to procure information relative to the sums expended for particular periods on certain branches of the naval service. The motion, as it appeared on the votes, was of a very comprehensive character, and the notice given was so extremely short, that he was not furnished with the information necessary for entering into the subject. He had, however, done the best he could, in the course of one short morning, to procure as much information as possible, and that information he would be most happy to communicate to the noble Earl. If, however, the noble Earl wished to go into a very wide discussion—a discussion on the state of our whole naval materiel, and the general strength of our naval force at present as compared with a former period—such a discussion was certainly too extensive for him to be prepared to enter into on the moment. He could not collect that information which he was desirous to impart to their Lordships on so very short a notice. He thought that the notice had not been given in the way in which it ought to have been given, considering the extent and importance of the subject to which it related; and, if the noble Earl would give notice of motion

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to-day for a future time, he would be prepared to meet it. The noble Earl had told him yesterday, that he had given his notice then, because he wanted to go out of town. He wished that the noble Earl had given notice three or four days ago, and then he should have been prepared to meet any statement which the noble Earl might think proper to make.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, there might be a question whether such information as the noble Earl called for should be communicated; and, therefore, if there were no other reason, proper notice should have been given.
The Earl of Mintosaid, he did not mean to raise a discussion on all the subjects to which the noble Earl had alluded. He had no intention to enter into a wider field than was pointed out by his motion, or to go into any inquiry as to the general state of the noble Earl's administration of those branches of the subject to which the motion related. What he intended to do referred chiefly to what had been done, and what was about to be done, under the estimates of the other House of Parliament, at two different periods. On that point, he conceived the noble Earl might have been prepared with the necessary information. The point on which he was most anxious to procure information was, as to the amount of expense incurred for building ships of the line and steam-vessels of war, during the former and the present financial year. This was not so new a question, or so uncommon a matter of inquiry, as the noble Earl seemed to suppose. Such information had often been sought for. His object was to see the situation of our naval force, under certain heads, before the passing of the navy estimates for the present year. The subject was one of very great importance; but if the noble Earl was not prepared to enter into it at present, it was not his wish to press the discussion.
The Earl of Haddingtonhad not been at all aware that his noble Friend intended to enter on the navy estimates that were then debating in the House of Commons. At all events, before entering into a discussion on the estimates, their Lordships ought to have the documents before them. When a person filling his office gave information, the public had a right to expect that that information should be accurate.
The Earl of Hardwickethought that the House was not then prepared to enter upon the subject, as none of the navy estimates had been laid before that House. Those papers were supplied to the other House only, and he thought it very desirable that some means should be taken to have copies furnished to their Lordships also.
The Earl of Mintosaid, he had really been very unfortunate in his endeavours to make himself understood. His questions did not relate to any estimates at present before the House of Commons, but to those of former years. His motion was to obtain the information—the want of which the noble Lord complained of. He wished to know whether his noble Friend intended to carry out the programme of 1841 and 1842, and to what extent, measuring by eighths, the reduction was to be carried. The noble Earl moved for a
"Return of the sum expended in the payment of wages to shipwrights, other artificers, and labourers, in the following Dock-yards:— Deptford, Woolwich (exclusive of the Steam-engine Manufactory), Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Pembroke, between the 1st April, 1841, and the 1st April, 1842, compared with the sums voted for the same service (Vote No. 8.) in the Naval Estimates for the year 1841℃2; also similar Return, from the 1st April, 1842, to the latest period for which it can be given; also, similar Returns for the same periods of the sums expended in the payment of wages to artificers and labourers in the Steam-engine Manufactory at Woolwich (Vote No. 8.); and also Returns of the sums expended in each of the same periods, for the purchase and repair of steam machinery, compared with the sums voted for the same service (Vote No. 10.), in the Navy Estimates for the years 1841℃2 and 1842℃3."
The noble Earl was understood to express his regret that the present Government had not paid sufficient attention to maintain the efficiency of the navy, and that they had this year proposed a reduced estimate for ship-building.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, he would explain the reason why less had been done in the particular department to which the noble Earl referred, in the last than in some preceding years. First, with respect to the building and repair of line-of-battle ships. The noble Earl must be aware of the great importance of keeping up repairs. It was better to have the ships in existence in good condition than to leave them in a deteriorated condition, and proceed to build new ones. It would

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be difficult to give a satisfactory answer with respect to the number of eighths, because the amount of such depended upon the size of the vessel. It would take a much larger time to complete the eighth of a first-rate than that of an inferior vessel. The reason why the number of eighths appeared to be less than usual was, that a greater number of large ships was operated on than was customary. In order to form a correct estimate of the work done, it was necessary to look to the number of shipwrights employed, and the quantity of timber consumed. The quantity of timber in the dock-yards in 1840 was 13,707 loads of 50 cubic feet; in 1841, it was 15,500 loads; and in 1842, it was 14,290. The number of men employed was pretty much the same in each year. Circumstances, over which the Government had no control, had caused the new work done to fall short of that designed. Woolwich was the only yard which had a complete establishment, but there the pressure for putting out steamers had been so great that not more than half the other work intended to be executed in that yard could be accomplished. An other cause was the state of the demonstration ships. In 1840 the noble Earl took credit for those ships being in such a slate that they could in a very short time be made ready for going to sea. When, however, those vessels came to be examined, they were found to be much out of order, and it was necessary to take the shipwrights off other work and set them about repairing the demonstration ships. The repairs were nearly executed, and there would soon be thirty sail of the line ready for sea; namely, ten in the Medway, ten at Portsmouth, and ten at Devonport. There were now nine line-of-battle ships being built in the different yards. The late Government, when they quitted office, left the slips filled, and designated successors to the ships which were then in progress. It would have been unjustifiable in the present Government to order fresh vessels to be built until they were completed, but orders had been given to pre pare eight new frames. He would now give the House an account of the number of ships launched in 1841 and 1842, and the number intended to be launched in 1843. In 1841℃2, there were launched three line-of-battle ships, one fifth rate, one sixth rate, four brigs, nine steamers, and one liner. In 1842℃3, there
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would be launched four ships of the line, one fourth rate, one sixth rate, brigs, five steamers, and two liners. In 8434, there would be launched one ship of the line, one fourth rate, two fifth rates, two sixth rates, three brigs, two steamers, and one liner. Under these circumstances, he thought there was no ground for contending that the present Government was not as anxious to uphold the power of the navy as their predecessors. In addition to what he had stated, he must observe, that the Government were building four new slips at Portsmouth; at Plymouth there was no room for any more; at Pembroke nearly five new slips were finished. The steam establishment at Woolwich was nearly completed, and it was intended to add to it this year by the purchase of Charlotte-place. Other improvements would have been effected, but for the pressure upon the public finances at the present moment. He was sure it was the policy of this country to keep up such a steam force as would set all danger of invasion at defiance. He had been called on, very unexpectedly, to explain matters which more properly belonged to the gallant, distinguished, and experienced Lord of the Admiralty, whose health he hoped would be speedily restored.
The Earl of Mintoreplied, and admitted that the explanation of the noble Earl opposite had gone far to remove his uneasiness.
The Earl of Hardwickeobserved, that the consumption of timber in the arsenals, and the number of labourers employed, had been nearly the same during the last three years; and therefore, if the work was done, whether on new ships or on old, the public would be satisfied. He thought the noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty would do well to turn his attention in the construction of steam ships to the abandonment of timber for iron.
The Earl of Haddingtondeclined to take upon himself the responsibility of such a change. He would not say anything against iron; but he could not say that all steam-ships should be of iron.
Lord Ashburtonvery much doubted whether it would not be better to leave these matters to those who were skilled in them, instead of laying Dare to the public eye all our naval improvements.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, I am very much obliged to my noble Friend for that suggestion. I thought it possible

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that this debate might come to the issue which, I am sorry to say, it has; and I therefore endeavoured to put a stop to it. The whole discussion has turned upon this: the late First Lord of the Admiralty brought forward a number of charges against the present First Lord; the consequence of which is, that the whole arcana of the important offices which they filled is made known to the whole world.
The Earl of Minto: I really cannot see why this House should be debarred from the discussion of one of the most important subjects that can be mooted in it. I have myself, at no distant period, been obliged, with notice and without notice, to enter much more intricately into the discussion of what are called the arcana of State than anything that has elapsed to night; and this has been done, certainly, without rebuke. I cannot for the life of me, understand how any foreign State can obtain more information from what has occurred to-night than what can be had in the Navy List, and in the estimates of work in the dock-yards.
Lord Colchesterunderstood himself to be alluded to, though not by name, by the noble Earl. He had certainly made many motions on the subject of the navy; but he recollected that the last return which he asked for concerning the preparation of ships was withdrawn.
The Duke of Wellington: As the noble Earl (the Earl of Minto) has alluded to motions coming from that opposition to which it was my lot to belong for a considerable time, I beg to ask him, whether I ever put any question or made any motion which could be the slightest inconvenience to the public service? I remonstrated against this motion being brought on, but the noble Earl persevered.
The Earl of Minto: The noble Duke may rest assured I did not allude to him when I said I had had to answer very intricate questions from the other side when I was in the Government. I am quite aware there is no one who can be more safely appealed to in all questions of the public interest. I do not recollect, however, that the noble Duke ever checked those discussions.
The Earl of Haddingtonsaid, that the explanation which he had given he considered was only an act of justice to the department over which he presided.
Motion withdrawn.
The Earl of Wharncliffe The Earl of Wharncliffe moved the se
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cond reading of the Transported Convicts Bill.
Agreed to; and the House adjourned till Monday.