Lords Sitting of 21 February 1843

MINUSES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl or Radnor, from Lambeth, Burnley, and the Gorbals, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—From Cirencester, for Free Trade, and the Repeal of the Income-tax.—From Milton Clevedon, for Church Extension.—From the Wirral Union, for the Repeal of the Registration of Births, etc. Act. By Lord Campbell, from the Session of Whitburn, for a Settlement of the Scotch Church Question. By the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Bishops of Hereford, Chester, Bangor, Salisbury, Rochester, and Lincoln, from Worcester, Norwich, Rochester, the Clergy of Essex, the East Riding of York, the Clergy of Anglesea,
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Maidstone, Llanfachreth, Lianelltyd, Estimaner, Menai, Stafford, Llangefni, Tregagan, Llangwyllog, Liverpool, Llandrygarn, Bodwrog, Trefdraeth, Dolgellan, Penmynydd, Llanfaes and Penmon, Pentraeth, Llandegfancum, Beaumaris, Llanbedrgoch, Llanfairmathafaneithaf, Llanddonna, Llangadwaladr, Llandysilio, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Llanfechell, Llanlyristeolus and Cerrig-Ceinwen, Rhosgolyn, Llantrisan and Llecheynfarwy, Llanfwrog, Llanidan, Rhodo-Geidio and Gwredog, Llanddeusaint, Llantsaintffraid-Glyn-Ceiriog, Llaniestyn, Llangord and Llanfihangel, Tin Sylwy, Lianbadrig, Holyhead, Llanfaeqhly, Bodedern, Llanddyfnan, Llansadwrn, Newborough, Llanfihangel and Llanffinan, Llanfachreth, Amlwch, Talyllyn, Llanedwen, Llanrhyddlad and Llanrhwydrys, Llangeinwen, Llanbeulan, and Towyn, for the Repeal of so much of 6 and 7 Will. 4th c. 77, as to the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.

PETITIONS—RULES OF THE HOUSE.
Lord Campbellrose to present a petition from the congregation of Whitburn, in the county of Linlithgow, praying that the House would take measures to restore peace to the Church of Scotland; but having been informed by the Clerk that the petition was informal, in consequence of the signatures being on a different paper from the prayer of the petition the noble Lord said, that he could vouch for the petition being genuine and authentic, the sheets were united in the usual way, and he could not see the advantage of a rule such as had just been described to him.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that if one name only was on the same sheet as the prayer of the petition, it had been the rule of the House to receive it; but where not a single name was on the same piece of paper, it had never been customary to receive it.
Lord Campbellbelieved there was no standing order by which the rule was laid down.
The Earl of Devonsaid such had always been the rule of the House, and it had been found useful as a protection against fraud.
Lord Broughamadmitted there was no standing order on the point, but his noble and learned Friend knew very well that there was a common law as well as a written law, and so it was in that House too. During the thirteen years that he (Lord Brougham) had been a Member of the House, he had never heard the rule objected to.
Lord Campbellstill thought it would be more reasonable to allow the character of the petition to rest upon the responsibility of the peer who presented it. Still, if such was the rule, he would of course withdraw the petition.
Petition withdrawn.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The Marquess of Clanricardesaid, he had given notice of his intention to ask a question relating to the progress that had been made in building the new Houses of Lords and Commons. When the subject was originally considered it was agreed that the most rapid progress possible should be made for the purpose of affording proper accommodation to their Lordships. It was not his intention to find any fault with what had been done, because he possessed no accurate information on the subject; but so far as he could learn from that general information which was open to the public in this country, he understood that the arrangement, or agreement, to which he had alluded, had been more or less departed from. It was generally supposed that it was considered desirable to hasten the completion of certain ornamental parts of the building—he alluded particularly to the tower; and that other important parts were in consequence delayed. He by no means objected to those ornamental parts, because, as he was told, they would be worthy of the purposes for which the buildings themselves were intended; but he thought that for no reason should one hour's delay be allowed in giving to their Lordships all necessary accommodation in their place of meeting. If this were not attended to, or if a satisfactory answer were not given, he should feel it to be his duty to move for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the subject, and to make such suggestions and to adopt such resolutions as they might deem necessary, if what he understood to be the fact was so. He hoped, however, that such would not prove to be the case. The question he wished to ask was, whether, in proceeding with the building of the new Houses of Parliament, the arrangement originally agreed to had been kept in view? and whether they might look forward to any particular definite period when accommodation would be afforded to their Lordships, in their chamber, more fitting than that which they now had.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he should be very glad if proper accommodation could be afforded to their Lordships immediately. He had made inquiry as to the progress that had been made with the building, and he found that, as the Victoria Tower was the heaviest part of it, and there was, in the opinion of the architect, a probabi-
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lity of its settling, it was therefore, not deemed desirable that the rest of the building should be carried on until a certain portion of the Tower was erected. With respect to the erection of the House of Lords before the other parts of the building were completed, it was considered desirable that the works should be carried on together; but that would not prevent the completion of the House of Lords considerably before the House of Commons and the other parts of the building. Certainly there should be no unnecessary delay. The House of Lords would probably be ready in 1845, but on that point he spoke loosely, for he had not particularly inquired into it.
Lord Broughamsaid, if they were to be debarred from proper accommodation for so long a time, after they had given such great accommodation to the other House, it became a subject of very serious grievance. This great delay, it appeared, was occasioned in consequenne of the erection of a tower. A tower was to be added to the building for the sake of pure ornament. It was not for use—there was not an atom of use connected with it. He understood that it was described by (we believe) Mr. Hamilton, than whom no man was a more competent judge, as a specimen of the bad gothic taste of the nineteenth century. He could not see why they should wait so long a time, and expend so ranch money, on a mere matter of ornament. He wished the necessity of proceeding, as was at first arranged, should be urged on Mr. Barry. Their Lordships were to have been accommodated in the first instance; but now they were told that the whole of the buildings were to go on pari passu. He should say nothing about the reason assigned for that; but he wished to have the bargain originally entered into when they gave up their House to the Commons strictly performed—namely, that their Lordships should have ample accommodation very speedily. The House of Commons had never been better off for accommodation than at present. Not that he could say this from any personal knowledge of his own, for since the day on which he received the Great Seal, be had never crossed the threshold of the House of Commons. But nothing could be worse than the accommodation of their Lordships; and surely the convenience of their Lordships should also be attended to. Their library, he understood from Mr.

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Leary, was in such a state, that there was no place in which to put certain presents of books received from the king of the French.
Viscount Duncannonconsidered that the appointment of a committee would be most satisfactory. It was now eight years since the building was commenced, and the architect stated at the time of the contract that within seven years the work would be sufficiently advanced to enable their Lordships to have all the accomodation necessary. Some two or three years ago he asked when it was likely that the building would be sufficiently advanced to enable their Lordships to sit in their own House, and was told by the Session of 1844. There was another inconvenience to which he would advert, because he thought it a really serious one, be alluded to the air and light which would be all cut off, in a very short time, by the height of the building now going on close by the present House.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that undoubtedly their Lordships had made a great sacrifice in giving up the accomodation which they possessed to the other House under an agreement that proper accomodation would be speedily provided for thei Lordships. Such accommodation had not been provided, and therefore, he agreed with his noble Friend near him that it would be proper to appoint a committee to inquire into the subject, not with a view to making any alterations in what was intended to be done, but for the purpose of seeing how the work could be expedited. He should be very sorry to see the tower abandoned. His noble and learned Friend had indeed said that it would be useless. That, however, was not the case, because it was intended to serve as a receptacle for public records, and a very safe and secure receptacle it would be. There was, however, no question between his noble and learned Friend and himself as to the necessity of procuring, as soon as possible, better accommodation for their Lordships than their present place of meeting afforded.
Lord Campbellsaid, that the greatest inconvenience was felt by those of their Lordships who sat from ten o'clock till half-past four o'clock. The alternate heat and cold of the place made it at one time a cold bath, and at another a vapour bath. Having recently come from the House of Commons, he could take it on
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himself to say that that House need be in no hurry; the ventilation there was excellent, and the temperature agreeable.
Lord Sudeleysaw no reason why the whole of the new building should proceed simultaneously. It might be desirable to have all the walls carried up to the same height. The whole of the exterior might be completed at one time, but the interiors of the several apartments might be finished at various times. He saw no reason why the House of Lords might not be completed in 1844.
A committee was appointed to inquire into the progress of building the two Houses of Parliament.
Adjourned till Thursday.