The Marquess of Clanricarderose to move for certain returns relative to the operation of the Poor-laws in Ireland. He did not intend to detain the House by going into any detailed statement on the subject. He merely wished to state sufficient to give him a Parliamentary ground for moving for these papers. The returns for which he moved, were calculated to show the House the expenses which had been occasioned by the Poor-laws in Ireland; the expenses incurred in fitting up the different poor-houses; the expense of maintaining the paupers; the amount of rates chargeable on the different unions; and the present condition of the finances of the different unions. He should also move for other papers, which would tend to show the feelings of the people of the country generally on the subject of the Poor-laws. He must say, that the matter was one which required the prompt interference of Parliament. He opposed the Bill when it was first introduced, and those who had opposed it, had now every reason to believe that all the arguments which they had adduced against it were well founded, and that all the evils which they had anticipated, had already arisen from its operation. The expense was so great, that it was utterly impossible for that impoverished country to bear it. It could not, however, be denied that the alteration had done some good, but then that good bore no proportion to the charge at which it had been effected. When he got the returns—for he did not anticipate there could be any objection to them, he should be able to prove, that the greatest extravagance prevailed in the administration of 192 the law. When the Poor-law was under consideration in that House, the noble Duke opposite introduced a provision, relative to the choice of guardians by the electoral divisions, which he opposed at the time; but he was now glad that it was introduced, because it showed more clearly than anything else the real state of the case. The consequence was, that in electoral divisions, which were heavily charged, no relief had hardly been afforded, and in others, the relief had been so small that he might fairly rate it as nought. In Ireland, it never was complained that the able-bodied poor were not willing to rely on their own resources as much as they could. The evil of the country was poverty, and he thought that the Poor-law Bill, instead of diminishing would aggravate that evil. He wished to ask the noble Duke whether it were the intention of the Government to introduce any measure on the subject of Poor-laws in Ireland. The noble Marquess concluded by moving for a series of returns.
§ The Duke of WellingtonI have no objection to the production of these papers, excepting, perhaps, the length of time which will be required in order to make them out. The last return I do not object to, though, as it relates to the employment of the constabulary and troops in putting down any resistance to the Poor-laws, it may be considered confidential. I will now answer the question put to me by the noble Marquess. Her Majesty's Government have already taken measures to acquire information upon all the points on which it appears that this law has not given satisfaction or failed to produce the good effect expected from it. This information, it is hoped, will be obtained before long, and when it is, it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to propose a bill for the alteration of the law. I must observe, that the clause I proposed in the former measure was proposed when the measure was in a different state to that in which it ultimately passed: for when I proposed the clause, the electoral divisions were to be formed out of the town lands. All I can say is, that no exertions will be spared to render the proposed measure as useful and as beneficial to the country as possible.
The Earl of Wicklowsincerely hoped that no alteration would be made in the particular clause which had been referred to 193 to. He was persuaded the bill would have been inoperative without that clause. Every argument which the noble Duke so forcibly brought forward was confirmed by experience. If it were not for this clause, those who lived at a distance from the workhouse would never have attended to the local business, and the whole must have been managed by the guardians residing in the neighbourhood, with the inevitable result of being turned into a job. When the noble Marquess brought forward any motion on the subject, he should also call attention to the working of the fifth rating clause. There was another unfortunate circumstance that had just occurred which would render the law inoperative, and that was the opinion of the law officers with respect to the interference of magistrates. He presumed that the Attorney and Solicitor-general were perfectly well acquainted with the law, and able to give a sound opinion, and he knew the present Attorney-general of Ireland to be one of the ablest lawyers in the country; but being no lawyer himself, he was unable to discover the ground of their opinion, which was, that no magistrate who was a rate-payer himself could interfere in any decision in which he paid the rate. The magistrates could be appealed to on their own decision; and as they inflicted the penalty for not paying the rate, the law could not be carried into effect if that opinion were well founded. It would be necessary for the Government to make some alteration in that part of the law.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonhad heard some complaints as to the clause relating to electoral districts, and he therefore felt bound to state that it was carried into operation under the circumstances which he contemplated when he proposed it. However, at present he had no intention to propose any alteration respecting it.
The Marquess of Clanricardehoped there would be no delay in making the returns, and that they would be given as soon as they were prepared. He would also wish to get a return of the expenditure of the Mendicity Association of Dublin for last year. That institution had been supported by voluntary contributions, and the same number of persons were relieved in it for 3,000l., which were now relieved at an expenditure exceeding 10,000l., or, as he believed, 12,000l.
§ Motion agreed to.