Lords Sitting of 11 April 1843

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1a. Registration of Voter; Slave Trade Suppression.
Received the Royal Assent.—Punishment of Death; Coast of Africa; Slave Trade Abolition (Bolivia); Slave Trade Abolition (Uruguay); Slave Trade Suppression (Texas); Coroner's Inquests; Sudbury Witnesses Indemnity.
Private.—1a. Bourn Drainage; London and Brighton Railway.
Reported.—Trenthan Roads; Ipswich Docks; Hungerford and Lambeth Suspension Foot Bridge; Brighton and Hove Gas; Northern and Eastern Railway.
3a. and passed:—Oxnam's Estate.
Received the Royal Assent.—Hull and Selby, Newcastle and Darlington, Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Man-Chester, and Oxford Railways; Bercot and Oxford Navigation; Chepstow Water; Carmarthen Market; Birkenhead Improvement; Bolton Gas; Lancaster Lunatic Asylum; Cockermouth Roads; Earl of Leicester's Estate; Grafton Inclosure.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Bishop of Winchester, from Llandysilio and Llandrino, Isle of Wight, Winchester, and Godstone, against the Union of the Sees of St Asaph and Bangor—By Lord Ashburton, from East Budleigh, for Amending the present Poor-law.

TREATY OF WASHINGTON—THANKS TO LORD ASHBURTON.
Lord Ashburtonwho seemed nearly overcome by his feelings, spoke as follows:—My Lords, I hope your Lordships will permit me to take this, the earliest opportunity which has been afforded to me, of making my acknowledgments to your Lordships for the resolution which, by the minutes and proceedings of your Lordships' House, I observe your Lord-ships passed on Friday last. This resolution so flattering to myself, personally is rendered still more valuable by its recording the expressions of your Lordships' satisfaction, that the Treaty which it has been my good fortune to conclude, "is alike advantageous and honour-

819
able to both parties," and at the restoration of a good understanding which it is alike the duty and the interest of both Countries to maintain Unbroken, because I consider such language calculated to promote that good understanding. Expressions so full of wisdom and sound policy delivered by such a body the Peers of this kingdom cannot fail to hare a great effect in producing that consummation which is so much desired. My sense of the great importance of effecting a settlement of those Unfortunate differences which had gradually grown up between the two countries was my great inducement to undertake the task imposed upon me without perhaps sufficiently considering my ability for so important an undertaking. I have, however, the good fortune, in the performance of those duties, of meeting with the approval Of my Sovereign and her Ministers, and I have now to add my acknowledgments for the almost unprecedented honour of the approbation of your Lordships' House. It is quite impossible for me to assure your Lordship how deeply sensible I am of that honour. In countries in which free Governments are established—such as we and the people of America have the happiness to live under—it is natural that questions of this importance should be discussed with great freedom; and that has been the case with the treaty which it has been my business to execute. Although I trust that the conditions are such as are likely to be conducive to the future maintenance of peace between the two countries, and to have effectually, and fairly, and honourably settled the questions which were in dispute. I must fairly assure your Lordships that the more minute questions of more or less of boundary, which have been the subject of so much discussion both on this and on the other side of the Atlantic weighed in my estimation very little in comparison with the larger question of effecting a settlement which should be satisfactory to men of honourable minds in both countries, and which would contribute to the conviction that the arrangement had been one of honourable terms, and of equality, between two great countries, and which could in that way alone be likely to be permanent and final. It is not my intention to go at all into any questions connected with the subject of those transactions; but I must again express to your Lordships the deep sense I entertain of
820
the honour of that approbation which you have been pleased to express, and which is the highest reward that I could possibly receive for the humble effort which I hate made in the service of my country.
The Duke of Wellington: I am sure the House will hate heard the speech of the noble Lord with satisfaction. I consider it my duty to move that the subject be entered on the journals of the House.
Motion agreed to nem. con

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS.
Messengers from the House of Commons brought up the Registration of Voters Bill.
The Earl of Shaftesbury The Earl of Shaftesbury moved that the bill be read a first time.
Lord Broughamwas not disposed to offer any opposition to the motion of the noble Earl, that this bill should pass through its preliminary stage. He begged to give notice, however, that it was his intention, shortly after Easter, to bring the whole subject of registration before the House. His decided opinion was, that something must be done for the improvement of the existing system of Registration, but he should call the attention of the House to the absolute necessity of considering whether some change was not necessary to be adopted in the general principle of registration. The existing system, in his opinion, contained in itself all the evils of annual Parliaments, without any of their advantages; and having, at the time of the introduction of the Reform Bill, expressed his apprehension that some of its details might be found defective, he should not now shrink from endeavouring to remedy the existing insufficiency of the law.

SLAVERY AND SLAVE TRADING.
Lord Broughamrose to lay before the House the bill of which he had given notice, upon the subject of slavery, respecting which some discussion had taken place between his noble Friend (Lord Denman) and the noble Lord the President of the Board of Trade, who was not now in his place. The difficulties With which this important question was invented, Was very 'great, and were, besides, of a Very delicate nature, and before he proceeded to detail to their Lordships the particulars of the plan, which he was about to propose, he Would beg to offer his best thanks to those distinguished individuals by when he had

821
boon united in the preparation of this bill. He alluded to that learned and distinguished person, Dr. Lushington, now no longer a Member of the House of Com-mobs; to Captain Denman, whose practical knowledge of the subject was well known to their Lordships; and to Mr. Beldam, a barrister of very great learning, peculiarly well acquainted with the particulars of this question. He (Lord Brougham) had originally prepared three plans, either of which might have been adopted; but that which he was now about to describe to their Lordships was composed of those three, with many important improvement. There were the main objects in view. The first was the prevention of that species of traffic, which (although in moral guilt and pernicious tendencies there was no doubt it was equivalent to the slave-trade) had been doubted by high authority to be within the law of slavery. The question was, Whether a person being a British subject, but residing abroad, and not within the bounds of a British settlement, buying and selling slaves, was not just as guilty in to purchasing slaves, and carrying them either to his Own plantations to work, or to other plantations for sale, as if he had gone to the coast of Africa, and had thus, upon the high seas, carried on a traffic in slaves? The question was not settled in Westminster-hall, he must shy somewhat to his surprise, and, therefore, some enactment was wanted to put an end to all doubt upon the point. It was necessary that the doubt should be set at rest by a declaratory act. It was quite clear that Parliament meant to prohibit this, that a man should be able to go to Cuba to buy slaves, and carry back the slaves to hit plantation; that should be prohibited, and at the present law was not held sufficient to accomplish that end, it was necessary to declare what the law was to be in future. The first object of the act was to declare that this system could not be tolerated, and to abolish it altogether. The next object was to legislate respecting persons holding foreign slave plantations, for as foreign slave plantations could not be cultivated without slaves, and as such an estate might come to him by inheritance, devise, marriage settlement, or gift, and unless he did softie act he ought not to be considered as an owner of slaves, as it was intended to excuse all those who, without any act of their own, had come into the possession of slaves. The next
822
object of the bill was to prevent joint-stock companies established for carrying on projects abroad from buying and telling stoves. Many of the partners in those companies in this country, not knowing anything about the matter, knowing only that they were buying a certain quantity of scrip, had, in fact, been employing slaves. It was proposed to be provided that the proper officers of these companies should give security against the carrying on of such traffic by such bonds and securities as, by order in council, her Majesty in council should provide. Another object was, if possible, to strike at the traffic on the coast of Africa, and this was to be done in two ways; the first was by establishing a better mode of trial, and an easier trial, of slave trading practices by British Subjects. The next object which he warned to effect by this measure was to increase the facilities for obtaining evidence, to be used in this country, or in any places abroad where legal proceedings with reference to the slave-trade might be adopted. He proposed to adopt the practice which was introduced by the East India Judicature Act—a measure which was, however, seldom acted upon—which enabled a party prosecuting to obtain a mandamus from the Court of Queen's Bench, and so to put in motion the judicatures of the colonies, and to procure through them under Certain regulations, evidence which might be received by the legal tribunals in this country, and in other pieces. Another, and indeed the great object of this bill, was to endeavour to prevent practices in this country which, if not amounting to actual trading in slaves, at least tended to the encouragement and promotion of the traffic on the coast of Africa. It was undoubtedly necessary that some line should be drawn, and that any interference with innocent trade with Africa should be avoided. In order to do this, he proposed to vest in her Majesty in council the power of making certain orders for the purpose of placing persons engaged in the African trade under similar obligations, superintendence, and restrictions, to those which he had proposed to apply to joint-stock companies. The bill contained other pro-visions, into which it was unnecessary for him to enter at present; for hit only object now was to give a general outline of the measure, in order to facilitate its considerate by their Lordships during the recess. He would move the first reading

823
of the bill to-night, and the second reading would not, of course, take place until after the recess. He had avoided entering into any discussion with reference to the observations which had been made on the subject by the learned Lord Chief Justice on his motion with respect to the recent treaty concluded with America, because he was aware that the opinions which his noble and learned Friend and himself entertained on this question were not held or practically acted upon by either France, America, or this country. He certainly would not so far obtrude his opinions as to call on the Government or the Legislature practically to act upon them at present, for that might give rise to great difficulties; but he must say, that he was unable to comprehend upon what grounds any jurist, or any statesman, or any common lawyer, or any man of common sense, could hold that, if the law of any given country declared a certain act to be felony or to be piracy, and if the subjects of that state chose to commit such act, the country whose subjects so outraged its own laws should, with any colour of pretence, or with any consistency of conduct, send an ambassador to complain to us of having interfered with its piratical subjects in the perpetration of the gravest offence which could be committed against its laws, and say, "We will not suffer you to interfere with these parties who have violated our laws, because they are our own. subjects, and we claim for them, notwithstanding the perpetration of these iniquities, a right to the benefit of our protection, equally with the most meritorious of our subjects." He did not profess to understand the chain of reasoning upon which that complaint of our searching their vessels, and interfering with their piratical subjects, was founded. He should have thought the comitas gentium would rather have led them to approve of our conduct; and, if he had been a subject of France or of America, be would have said to any nation which had interfered with his countrymen under similar circumstances, "We thank you for stopping the parties who were violating our laws and committing such offences. We are indebted to you for your conduct, and in return we promise you to put a stop to similar conduct on the part of your rebellious subjects, for the best return we can make for your kindness is by exercising equal and reciprocal comity to
824
you." He trusted their Lordships would excuse him for having thus alluded to the observations made by his noble and learned Friend the other evening, and he begged to move, "that this bill be now read a first time."
Lord Campbellentirely concurred in the satisfactory expression of opinion by his noble and learned Friend, and also by his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice, the other evening. He could not understand why, as between two nations united for the suppression of the slave-trade, by both of whom it had been declared to be felony and piracy, the unlawful traffic should still be allowed to be carried on, more especially when every civilised nation in the world was engaged in the same good cause of putting an end to this dreadful trade. If, by the law of nations, this trade was considered piratical, all engaged in it ought to be considered and treated as pirates. He hoped that the noble Lord at the head of the foreign department would be enabled to induce the different civilised nations of the world to unite in declaring it piracy. Then slavery might be effectually suppressed, and he feared not till then.
Lord Ashburtonfeared that the view which the noble and learned Lords took of the law was rather what all humane and sensible persons would desire the law to be, which all their Lordships desired should be the law, and which his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) had pressed all the powers of Europe to make law, than what was law. He feared that his noble and learned Friends who had spoken on this subject, learned as they were at Westminster-hall, would not find their view of the law so much acknowledged as they might desire at Doctors' Commons. By insisting that this was contrary to the law of nations, they would hold that we had a right to interfere in cases of suspicion, because it was held by the best authorities that we had a right without treaty to inquire into the right of a vessel to carry any particular flag; but with a treaty only to inquire whether the slave-trade or any other crime took place on board ships. What he would much desire, and what would be the happiest day the world ever saw, would be when it should be declared to be law what the noble and learned Lords believed to be the law. Such a declaration was what his noble Friend near him was pressing on other

825
powers. He was endeavouring to prevail on the powers of the world, one and all, to come to this humane and enlightened view. With respect to the United States, they had not declared the trade to be piracy, but they had pressed this country to deal with it as piracy. Mr. Rush urged us to declare it piracy by the law of nations, which Mr. Canning had declined to do on the clear and intelligible ground, that no two nations could make a law of nations; they could declare what was law between England and America, but what was made so by all the Christian powers of Europe and America might well become the law of nations. He assured their Lordships that there was no part of America which did not seriously and earnestly desire the suppression of the slave-trade. The Georgias, the Carolinas, and Lousiana were as much interested in the suppression of the slave-trade as was this country, and there had not been for the last fifteen or twenty years any introduction of African slaves into American states.
Lord Broughamhad not given countenance to the notion that the English Government should act on his views as to the law, he gave them only as speculative opinions. He believed, that the law of nations, like the municipal law, was susceptible of improvement by addition: this chapter might be advantageously added, we were very near it, but it was not yet done.
Lord Campbellhad not wished it to be supposed that the law as he had laid it down should be acted upon as the law of nations, till it was recognised to be law. He did not think that it need be added, it had become essentially the law of nations, and all that was wanted was a mere declaration of the law.
The Earl of Aberdeenobserved, that when the noble and learned Lord said, that all the civilized world declared the slave-trade to be piracy, he must remark that there was one country, of some little importance in the world, which declared no such thing—namely, France. Her recognition of that doctrine was still to be obtained. With the moat profound respect for the legal opinions of the noble and learned Lords opposite as to what was or what ought to be the law of nations, he, as Minister, was bound to attend to the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, when he had to deal with foreign powers.
826
He would take that opportunity of disavowing all intention of casting any imputation on the gallant officer alluded to the other evening (Captain Denman) in the letter he had written; nothing was further from his intention than to cast any imputation upon that hon. and gallant Officer; and even restricted as his own views were as what was authorised to be done by our cruisers on the coast of Africa, that gallant Officer in anything he had done had not come within the exception he had laid down; and he must add, that there was no one who had more distinguished himself in this important service, nor for whom he entertained a higher respect than that gallant Officer.
Lord Denmanthought their Lordships would expect some acknowledgement from him of the statement of the noble Earl, which was most gratifying to his feelings. He had proved the other evening that the letter of the noble Earl could not have been intended to cast imputation on the officer in question, and he was now pleased to bear from the noble Earl a full confirmation of what he had said. He must express his great satisfaction at this brief discussion on the bill of his noble and learned Friend, because he was satisfied the more the subject was considered, the more disposition there would be to come to the opinion he had broached the other evening, and which both his noble and learned Friends had, to a certain degree, adopted that evening. He was not sure that his own opinions did not go further than theirs, for he had ventured to speak of a natural law of right and wrong, which made a pirate a public enemy, and declared the slave-trade obnoxious to the principles of that law. Nothing, however, was further from his wish than to act indiscriminately upon this law, for he deemed it necessary to endeavour to obtain the assistance of other countries to make it effectual. But he believed the Government would do better in their negotiations by starling upon the wider principle, if they viewed the slave-trade in the light of crime which all nations had a right to prevent, and then proceeded to discuss practically what measures should be most effectual, than if they commenced by petitioning other nations to do them the favour to join in putting it down. He could bear his testimony to the statements of the noble Earl, that

827
there was no slave-trade carried on between the coast of Africa and America; and he must also bear his testimony to the satisfactory and honourable manner in which the courts of law in America uniformly exerted themselves to put down the slave-trade: the decisions of these courts were models of what ought to be done in reference to the subject: that made the contrast stronger between the Government and the judicature; for whilst the one was effectively putting down the slave-trade, the other seemed to encourage their own subjects in carrying on that obnoxious trade, which they nevertheless declared to be piracy. It seemed remarkable, that if the judicature were well employed the Government should not accept the proffered aid of our cruisers, and all the force that could be brought for bringing their own subjects to trial for the violation of their own laws. He knew the passage in which President Tyler declared they were competent to deal with their own subjects, and so they were if their subjects were brought before them, but the cruisers of any single power were in sufficient for the purpose. It was only by a combination of cruisers they could hope to make any pression on that boundless coast. To suppose that a squadron of 80 guns could effect a perfect surveillance over a coast 3,600 miles in length, was one of the most romantic notions ever entertained. With reference to what had been said on the subject of the law, he thought it important to observe, that the principle on which Lord Stowell decided the case of the Louis was, that France had not only not abolished the slave-trade, but by an ordinance, had kept it alive until a given time. In that period an English officer searched the Louis, a slave-trader, believing that in the meantime France had abolished the slave-trade; the vessel was conducted to Sierra Leone, and the court there gave judgment against it, but on appeal that judgment was reversed, If the slave-trade had been abolished it would have been very difficult for France to have allowed her subjects, who had offended her own law, to condemn the seizure, or for the Government of France to have complained of it to the Government of this country, but that was not the case, and Sir W. Scott only applied the law to the state of things at that moment. He would ven-
828
ture to say, that the law of nations not only might be altered, but had been altered. The Congress of Vienna had effected a great alteration in the law of nations on this subject, and if they had at once declared the slave-trade to be piracy, they would have placed the principle on a much higher footing in all future negotiations. Unfortunately the prevalence of the slave-trade and the vast interests connected with it bad been permitted to prevent the effectual suppression of that crime, as it had long succeeded in delaying any mitigation of its enormity. But public opinion had gradually done more than half its task, and would not leave the remainder unfinished.
Bill read a first time.
Their Lordships adjourned for the Easter holidays to Tuesday, the 25th of April.