Lords Sitting of 27 May 1842

Preamble
MINUTES.] BILLS. Public.1a. Ecclesiastical and Admiralty Courts Appeals Transfer.
2a.Pentonville Prison; Australia and New Zealand; Roasted Malt; Fines and Recoveries (Wales and Cheshire).
Reported—Punishment of Death (Ireland).
3a. and passed: — Excise Duties Compounds; Dublin Police; Turnpike Roads (Ireland).
Private.—1a. Gibson's Estate; Tyne Fisheries; Toxteth Park Paving and Sewerage; Market Harborough and Brampton Road; Birmingham and Liverpool Junction Canal; Holywell Roads; Boston Harbour (No. 3); Yate Inclosure; Stockton and Hartlepool Railway; York Cathedral; Milton's Estate (Crawford's).
2a. Faversham Navigation; Ardrossan Harbour; Duke of Cleveland's Estate.
Reported.—Greenock Harbours; Dundee and Arbroath Railway.
3a. and passed:—Aberdeenshire Roads.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Kenyon, from the Bath Church of England Lay Association, against any further Grant to Mamooth College.—From the Presbytery of Bray, etc., for the Repeal of the Law of Patronage.— From the Members of the Cornwall Medical Association,
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for Medical Reform, and for the Better Remuneration of Medical Officers attending Poor-law Unions.—From the Guardians of the Nantwich Union, for the Alteration of the Bastardy Clause of the New Poor-law.—From the Board of Guardians of the Huddersfield Union, for the Repeal of the Poor-law Amendment Act.

OUTRAGES IN TIPPERARY.
Lord Dunalleybegged to ask the noble Lord (Lord Wharncliffe) whether it were true that two terrible murders had recently been committed, and whether any measures had been taken to preserve the peace in that county.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that there had been two murders recently committed, of a very atrocious nature in the county of Tipperary, and that many other outrages had also been committed in the northern part of that county. This he admitted, but he could assure the noble Lord that no general system of offence was to be apprehended, for the Government and the local authorities had made every preparation to guard against any general breach of the peace. The strength of the police force in that district had been increased from 800 to 900 men, besides whom there were 1,700 regular troops stationed in that part of the county, and no less than seven stipendiary magistrates. This, he conceived, was a strength quite sufficient to guard against any extensive outbreak on the part of the turbulent and less peaceably-disposed part of the population. With regard to the two cases of murder which bad occurred, it was some mitigation of the feelings such occurrences were calculated to excite, that they had not arisen out of any organised system of hostility either to the Government or to the general peace of society, but they had resulted from private and family disputes. Outrages of this description were such as the police could not prevent. The only remedy for such evils must be found in the altered feelings of the people, or by some comprehensive legislative enactment. When he sat upon the committee which was appointed two or three years ago to inquire into the state of Ireland, he was happy to observe, that a better feeling prevailed among the landed gentry of Ireland towards their humbler neighbours, and that they were more disposed to treat their tenants with kindness. The happiest results had ensued from this commendable change. There, however, unhappily still remained evil dispositions productive of crime, that were the growth of former bad feeling and wicked misleadings,

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and which nothing but a continuance o. generous treatment and conciliatory conduct on the part of those who possessed influence could effectually remove. And, while admitting that a very beneficial change had taken place generally in the feelings of the landlords, yet he was compelled to confess that there were some who exercised the rights of property in that country in a manner which could not be justified. Those parties were not confined to any one class of political opinions; there were amongst them not only Tories, but Liberals— at least, Liberals in speech, whatever they might be in practice. The system generally, however, was much mitigated, and with respect to the outrages that had recently been committed he could only repeat that they arose from no hostile feelings against the Government, but from personal enmities and revenge.
Subject at an end.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS (IRELAN D.)
Lord Campbellsaid, he was about to lay on their Lordships' Table a bill, the object of which was to transfer to their Lordships' House all appeals from the Ecclesiastical Courts in Ireland. Heretofore—at least, since the union with Ireland—it had been the practice to take such appeals to a court of delegates, composed of a certain number of common-law judges; but this course would now be attended with some inconvenience, as several of the common-law judges in Ireland were Roman Catholics, and by an article of the Act of Union of the two countries, Roman Catholics could not sit as Judges in any matter connected with the Ecclesiastical Courts. The remedy for this inconvenience would be to transfer all such appeals to that House. He would now lay the bill on the Table, and would, on a future stage, go more fully into its merits.
Bill read a first time.

PENTONVILLE PRISON.
Lord Wharncliffemoved, that the Pentonville Prison Bill be read a second time.
Lord Colbornewished to call the noble Lord's attention to a very able report which had been made by Dr. Baillie on the subject to which this bill related. It was full of the most valuable information respecting the working of the system of solitary confinement. Dr. Baillie set forth many instances in which solitary imprison
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ment had not only failed in its object, but in which it had produced the most serious consequences. He hoped the noble Lord would allow that report to be printed, and a copy of it laid on the Table.
Lord Wharncliffehad not had an opportunity of reading the report which his noble Friend referred to. He was aware, that there was a considerable difference between separate confinement and solitary confinement, and he was certainly inclined to give a preference to the former. He would, however, read Dr. Baillie's report, and give the subject full consideration before their Lordships went into committee on the bill.
The Duke of Richmondentertained very considerable doubt whether a perfect and entire separation of prisoners was a system that ought to be maintained in this country. There ought, however, to be so much separation as would prevent parties from contaminating one another. He was of opinion, too, that mischief resulted from persons being imprisoned for too long a period. He believed, that the great secret of imprisonment was, that men should come out of prison smarting under the punishment that had been inflicted upon them while there, and that they should not remain there long enough to be familiarised with it. The present bill might do good if its operations were narrowly watched by the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Bill read a second time.
Their Lordships adjourned.