The Earl of Winchilsea presented a petition from Goudhurst, Kent, against the reduction in the duty on foreign hops. The petitioners stated, that the reduction contemplated by the Government of 21. per ton would ruin their trade.
§ Earl Fitzwilliamwould remind his noble kinsman (the Earl of Winchilsea), that if the culture of hops were destroyed, the land would remain and be capable of being converted to other purposes. His object in rising, however, was to direct the attention of the House and of his noble Friend to another point. The other night a conversation arose respecting the employment of persons in mines. His noble Friend then expressed great anxiety concerning the morals of that part of the population, which, he said, was seriously injured by the employment of females and children in mines. Now, as his noble Friend was so exceedingly desirous of protecting the morals of the inhabitants in the manufacturing districts, he would recommend him to look a little more to the morals of the persons in the districts with which he was himself more immediately connected. He would turn his noble Friend's attention to what occurred in the hop grounds during the time of hop-picking. If he would look to the morals of the females who laboured in the field, it might be more useful than turning his attention to those who delved in the bowels of the earth. [The Lord Chancellor: They go from London.] Yes, 456 they might go from London; but the example of their conduct was calculated to corrupt the morals of the districts with which the noble Earl was connected. Now, surely the noble Earl ought to endeavour to prevail upon the Government to which he gave his support to put an import duty upon the articles which were brought down from London into those rural places, lest they should corrupt the morals of the females, and it might perchance be of the males, in the very pure districts of Kent and Sussex.
The Earl of Winichilseasaid, and as his noble relative remarked, was true, that hop-grounds might be converted to other purposes of cultivation than that of the production of hops; but the mischief to be apprehended from the admission of foreign hops at a low rate of duty was not limited to the hop-grounds and hop-growers; it extended to woodlands, and to that class of persons who had invested large sums of money in the growth of ash, willow, and chesnut poles for the use of hop-grounds. Throw the hop-gardens out of cultivation, and these woodlands, which were of great extent, would immediately become valueless. The land hitherto devoted to the growth of hops might be easily convertible to other purposes, but the woodlands could not be brought into a state fit for cultivation except at an expense equal to the fee-simple of the land itself. The injury, therefore, resulting from a comparatively free importation of foreign hops, would extend much further than his noble Friend appeared to contemplate. The noble Earl had recommended him to look to the morals of the population in his own immediate neighbourhood. He begged to state that there was no district in that neighbourhood in which schools were not established capable of affording education to the whole of the population. All he asked was, that the hop-grower should have a fair protection, such as was given to other classes.
§ Earl Fitzwilliam:Then it appears that we are to protect hops, not for the sake of hops, but for the sake of woods— surely his noble Friend—
The Earl of Wicklow:I rise to order. If irregular discussions of this nature are constantly allowed to take place, it will be quite impossible that the business of the House can proceed.
§ Earl Fitzwilliam:I move, then, that 457 this House do now adjourn, and my reason for making that motion is, that it appears to me that the noble Earl opposite has called me to order in a way, I will not say perfectly irregular and disorderly, but in a way not perfectly consistent with the grave impartiality which should influence every one of your Lordships when you rise to enforce the rules of the House. If the noble Earl, the Lord-lieutenant of Wicklow, can show to me that he never remembers any instance of the sort of conversation taking place between noble Lords which has now transpired between my noble Friend and myself, I will bow to his authority, and cease to make any further remarks; but if he cannot do so, then previous to moving that the House do now adjourn I shall make a few observations upon what has fallen from my noble Friend (the Earl of Winchilsea) relative to the woods of which he tells us. It appeared from his noble Friend's statement, (the noble Earl continued), that the Legislature was to throw an obstacle in the way of the importation of foreign hops, not for the sake of the hop growers of this country, but for the sake of the owners of woods. But his noble Friend must very well know that where woods became less valuable, it was customary to destroy them, and he had no doubt (he noble Earl had himself been a great destroyer of woods; so in the case of woods cultivated for the sake of hops, if they became less valuable they might be destroyed, and that should be the case instead of protecting the hops for the sake of the woods. He would beg to direct the attention of the House to the alteration about to be made in the duties on foreign timber, which he apprehended would have more effect in deteriorating the value of woods —and he did not regret it, because he thought timber ought to be cheap—than any alteration in the hop duties would have in diminishing the value of wood grown in the counties of Kent and Sussex. In conclusion, the noble Earl moved that the House do now adjourn.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that if his noble Friend had any practical experience upon the subject, he would know that to bring wood lands into cultivation would be to expend a sum equal to the fee simple of the land upon which the wood grew. When the noble Earl directed his attention to the immoralities of hop-grounds, he would beg to point the noble 458 Earl's attention to the statements made in the report lately laid before them relative to the immorality practised in the mining districts with which the noble Earl was connected. He should be anxious at some future time to give the noble Earl an opportunity of denying that such immorality existed in any of the mines in which he had an interest.
§ Earl Fitzwilliam:I deny them now, and am glad that the noble Earl has given me the opportunity of doing so. I know of no single instance of the employment of females in any collieries of my own; and I believe that none are employed by any of my lessees. I own that I do not run into any of what I think the extravagant opinions that are entertained upon this report. To persons not accustomed to these employments it may seem very horrible that females should go under ground in the manner described in the report; but, whether the fact of their so going under ground contributed to the ruinous demoralization of their character is, in my mind, matter of considerable doubt. But, as far as my own property in collieries is concerned, I can positively deny that any females are employed in it. I take no credit for this. It arises from the nature of the seams of coal wrought in my collieries. Perhaps it might be desirable to interfere to prohibit the employment of children and females in collieries, but I should have some delicacy in making such a proposition, because the truth is, that the mischief from employing very young children in collieries arises from the seams of coals in certain collieries being exceedingly thin; and. any noble Lord who read the report, with a knowledge of mining, would find that the employment of children incolleries was confined to the western districts of Yorkshire, where the seams of coal were of that description.
The Earl of Wicklowrose to explain. He should be exceedingly sorry for the noble Earl to suppose that he meant any discourtesy towards him. [Earl Fitzwilliam: Not towards me personally.] But the noble Earl insinuated that he was not strictly impartial in enforcing the rule of order; and then the noble Earl went on to ask whether he had never witnessed such irregularities before. He had certainly witnessed them frequently, but never so often as in the noble Earl himself. Take the House collectively, and he would venture to say, that no three 459 Members of it had ever been guilty of the I irregularity of introducing matter foreign to the business of the House, to the same extent as the noble Earl. That was his reason for calling the noble Earl to order. Only the other night the noble Earl made no less than five speeches upon presenting one petition. If this were to be the practice of the House, and no noble Lord were allowed to rise to order, it appeared to him that it would be quite impossible to carry on the business of the House.
§ Lord Redesdaleremarked that in the discussion which took place on a previous evening upon the point of order, the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam) was the person who got up and expressed a hope that some new rule would be established to render the proceedings of the House more orderly. [Earl Fitzwilliam: Make a rule.] A new rule was not necessary. The rules which already existed were for all general purposes sufficiently stringent. It was not the practice to enforce them rigidly, but it might be necessary to do so, if the customary relaxation were subject to abuse. No one could doubt that the making of five or six speeches upon the presentation of a single petition, as was too frequently the habit of the noble Earl, was a serious impediment to the regular fixed business of the House, and could be attended with no advantage whatever. He thought that when a noble Lord was called to order, he should bow to the call, and not put himself in order, by moving an adjournment, thus evading the rule of the House, and causing great inconvenience.
§ Motion for the adjournment negatived.