Lords Sitting of 14 March 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—3a Loan Societies; Regu lation of Apprentices.
Private.—1a. Brewood Free Grammar Schools; Hinckley Roads; Leicester and Ashby-de-la-Zouch Road; Lie hertfs Naturalization. 2* Bunsen's Naturalization.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Campbell, Lord Hawarden, and other noble Lords, from places in Down, Tyrone and Antrim, in favour of the Presbyterian Marriages Bill.—By Lord Kenyon from the Church of England Lay Association, for support to the Established Church. —By the Marquess of Clanricarde, from Millers in the county of Galway, against the Importation of Foreign Flour.—By Lord Denman, from the Baptists of Lea mington Priors, for the Baptists Affirmation Bill.—By Earl Fitzwilliam, Lord Brougham, and other noble Lords, from Northamptonshire, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Durham, Sheffield, Sunderland, St James's, Westminster, Glasgow, and other places, for a Repeal of the Corn-laws.

MARRIAGE LAW—(IRELAND).
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the select committee appointed to inquire into the present state of the Marriage-law in Ireland, and to whom had been referred the Marriages (Ireland) Bill, with leave to report from time to time to the House, had directed him to report that the committee, having considered the matter referred to them and the said bill, had come to the following resolution:—
"Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee that further proceedings on this bill be postponed until the return of the judges from circuit."
He would take leave to mention to their Lordships that a case, similar to that which gave rise to the bill, had lately come before one of the judges on circuit in Ireland, and for the purpose of giving a full opportunity to consider the question a special verdict, had been found by direction of the judge, in consequence of which it would be referred to the Queen's Bench in Ireland, and might ultimately come before their Lordships. Their Lordships would allow him also to suggest, that in consequence of that public notification, he apprehended no inconvenience could result from the short postponement with respect to the proceedings in the bill. He begged further to mention, that the committee would proceed, notwithstanding the delay, to the further consideration of the other matters which had been referred to their determination.
Lord Broughamentirely agreed with what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend. He hoped, that every publicity would be given to his noble and learned Friend's statement. It should be
502
known universally in Ireland in what stale the inquiry was before the committee and before their Lordships', in order that the miserable consequences might not ensue, which would arise from persons acting on the supposition that marriages already contracted were invalid, and contracting new marriages. "Whoever does so," said the noble and learned Lord, "after the notice of my noble and learned Friend, must be understood to do it at his or her high peril."
Lord Campbellhad received a letter from one of the judges in Ireland, stating, that a second case had occurred during the present circuit, and a second special verdict had been taken. The first was before Judge Perrin at Carrickfergus, and the second before Judge Crampton at Armagh.—Report agreed to.

SPAIN—THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR.
The Marquess of Clanricardebegged to put a question to the noble Earl, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. It had been stated in the French Chamber, that when a difference arose between the French and Spanish Governments as to the mode of receiving the French Ambassador, who was not long since sent to Madrid, the noble Earl instructed our Minister at Madrid to take the same view of the question that had arisen as the French Government. But M. Gonzales was said to have stated in the senate of Madrid that the English Government subsequently thought right to change its opinion on that subject. These statements having been made to the French and Spanish Chambers respecting the views of the English Government, there could be no reason why our Houses of Parliament should not be equally well informed. He believed, therefore, that he should not be considered guilty of any indiscretion in asking whether the noble Earl had any objection to lay on the Table of the House the instruction which had been given on this subject to our Minister at Madrid; or if he did not think that course convenient, would the noble Earl state whether there had or had not taken place any variation in the views of her Majesty's Government as to the instructions which they thought fit to give in this matter?
The Earl of Aberdeenhad no objection to answer the question of the noble Marquess, although the subject was one, per-

503
haps, more of curiosity than leading to any practical result; for whatever the opinion entertained by her Majesty's Government might be, or however it might have been expressed, that opinion was not communicated to the Spanish government until some time after the French Ambassador had left Madrid. Therefore it had no practical bearing on the conduct of either party. Their Lordships would re collect, that in the month of October, a serious attempt to overthrow the Spanish government was made in the northern provinces of Spain. When that was put down, much acrimony of feeling remained against the French government, and against parties in France, who were supposed, whether truly or not, to have been connected with that attempt. It appeared, therefore, almost impossible that friendly relations should be speedily restored between France and Spain, and undoubtedly her Majesty's Government looked with great anxiety to the renewal of those friendly relations. They therefore saw, with much satisfaction, a gentleman named as ambassador to Madrid, who was known for his friendly feeling towards the Spanish nation; and, he believed, particularly for his friendly feeling towards the Spanish government at that moment. Her Majesty's Government thought the appointment was one calculated to renew the friendly feeling which had formerly existed between the two Governments, and therefore they looked upon that appointment with great pleasure. Shortly after the arrival of M. Salvandy at Madrid, a difference arose as to the mode of presenting his credentials. He might say in this case, as in many others, that he thought a little forbearance and moderation on both sides at the commencement of the dispute would have led to a happier result. As her Majesty's Government were informed, the case stood thus: they were given to understand that the pretensions of the French ambassador, in the first instance, were to deliver his letters of credence to the Queen alone, without the presence of her court or the Regent. They were also informed that the pretensions of the Regent were, that he should receive the credentials himself, and not in the presence of the Queen. It appeared to the English Government that this was exactly a case in which a compromise might be made, without injuring the dignity, or doing injustice to the pretensions
504
of either party. They thought, as a general rule, that letters ought naturally to be delivered to the person to whom they were addressed, and it certainly did appear to them that the French ambassador might be permitted to present his letters of credence to the Queen herself, in the presence of the Regent, who, if he thought proper, might answer them. That suggestion made by her Majesty's Government was acceded to by the French government. It had been, without instruction, supported by her Majesty's minister at Madrid, acting only from a desire to produce conciliation, and directed by that excellent sense which distinguished all his conduct. The suggestion was, at the same time, made without any knowledge of the manner in which the Spanish government construed an article of the Spanish constitution. It appeared, by an article of the constitution, that the Regent was invested with all the authority of the King, in whose name laws were promulgated. It did not appear to her Majesty's Government that the mere reception of letters was such an act of royal authority as necessarily required the intervention of the Regent. The answer to those letters was quite a different thing. That, of course, might involve political consequences, which would render indispensable the intervention of the Regent. He was sorry to say that the interpretation put upon the article of the constitution by the Spanish government, though he believed it a conscientious and honest interpretation, proved an insurmountable objection to the reception of the French ambassador. In consequence of that the Spanish government declined to accede to the proposal which was made by the French ambassador, and supported by her Majesty's Ministers in the way he had mentioned, and the French ambassador formally took leave. This appeared a trifling matter—a matter of mere etiquette, which hardly deserved the consideration which it at pre sent received. But at the moment when this took place her Majesty's Government were engaged in an earnest endeavour to obtain that which, in the present condition of Spain, would be of the utmost possible importance to its tranquillity, namely, the renewal of diplomatic relations with the governments of northern Europe. They had a prospect that that endeavour would be successful, but they could not help foreseeing that the rejection of the preten-

505
sions of the French ambassador to deliver his credentials to the Queen in person would be viewed by these powers as an act derogatory to royal authority to a degree which would check the disposition of a renewal of friendly relations with the Spanish government. That turned out to be too true. He hoped that the restoration of friendly relations was only delayed; but certainly the proceeding adverted to had tended to delay the result which they were so anxious to accomplish. Therefore it was that this event, which at present appeared to have no great importance as a matter of mere ceremony and etiquette, might have serious consequences. Having answered the question of the noble Marquess, he must say he was quite uninformed of any contradiction that had been given to what had been just stated. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) had never entertained but one opinion on the subject. He did not know to what difference the noble Marquess alluded. But he would beg to ask, what was his object in putting this question? Was it meant to be insinuated or implied that the advice given by her Majesty's Government was given with any improper or unfriendly feeling towards the Spanish government? If so, he could assure the noble Marquess that he never was more mistaken. The advice was received, though not acceded to, in the spirit in which it was offered—which was a desire the most sincere to remove difficulties out of the way of the Spanish government, and to prove the friendly interest felt by her Majesty's Government in its stability and prosperity. If it was really intended to represent this as an indication of want of interest or friendly feeling towards the Spanish government, it was very poor work indeed. Let the noble Marquess point to some indication of policy—to some act on the part of her Majesty's Government—which deserved such a construction. If it was his object to cast any doubt on the conduct or policy pursued, by her Majesty's Government, that course would be intelligible; but, even if the noble Marquess's impression were correct, this trifling matter could furnish no ground for any imputation. He would venture to say that, if the Spanish government was on that floor—if they were there in person—he would confidently appeal to them to declare whether they had ever experienced greater cordiality, greater friendship, or greater
506
efforts to render them service than from her Majesty's present Government. He would say further, that the expressions of their acknowledgements and gratitude were not sparing in consequence. The advice, or rather suggestion, to which the noble Marquess had alluded, was made entirely in the same spirit; and he had no doubt, that had it not been for the obstacle which he admitted was quite insuperable — for, of course, the Spanish government must be considered the best interpreters of their own constitution—had it not been for that interpretation, the suggestion would have been cheerfully acceded to.
The Marquess of Clanricardewould tell the noble Earl his motives in putting the questions, which were quite different from what the noble Earl supposed. First, he must express his perfect satisfaction at what the noble Earl had said on the subject. He was quite satisfied particularly as regarded the Spanish government; but with respect to his remarks on the slight importance of the transaction to which the question referred, he thought a matter could not be of slight importance which concerned the suspension of friendly relations between the courts of France and Spain. What happened between those courts could not be a matter indifferent to us. Diplomatic negotiations and communications, even upon matters apparently trifling, might lead to very important results. He did not see so much of a tendency as he had hoped on the part of the Queen's Government, to repair the coolness, to whatever degree it existed, which was said to have grown up between this Government and that of France. They were given to understand at first that our relations with France would be improved; but somehow or other, he knew not how it was—he did not wish to impute blame where he did not know that blame was due— but it had happened within the short space of time since the noble Earl was placed at the head of foreign affairs, and the present administration came into office, that there had been three sources of difference with France, two of which, at least, where of the greatest importance; therefore he thought that when he saw assertions made respecting the conduct of our Government in the French chamber—and they might very fairly look with considerable anxiety to the opinions expressed by the French minister—when

507
they saw they saw the Spanish minister contradicting what the French minister had said, he thought they might fairly ask for as much information as was given to the chambers of France and Spain. The noble Earl said he did not know to what he alluded in speaking of reports of variations in the instructions given to Mr. Aston. It was stated in the public journals that M. Gonzales had said in the Senate at Madrid that the English Government had seen reason to modify and change the opinion which it had expressed. It was perfectly true that this rested on the authority of newspapers. But newspapers had great effect in this and other countries; and if the Spanish and French public were so informed, there could be no harm in wishing the British public to be better informed. He must repeat, that he had heard with great satisfaction the declarations of the noble Earl. He did not accuse him of any unfriendly feelings towards either the Spanish or French governments. He was sorry that questions were still afloat, he knew not how or why, which might have a serious effect on the affairs of Europe, and he should be very glad to see the French government induced, by any means, to ratify the treaty into which it had entered.
Subject at an end.

INCOME TAX.
Lord Broughamhad to call the attention of their Lordships to a subject of great importance. He would now only give notice to his noble Friend, the President of the Board of Trade of certain resolutions which he was about to lay on the Table. He would content himself at present with reading them, and stating that he would move them to-morrow, and take the sense of the House on the subject He might remark, however, that he took this course owing to what he saw in the votes in time other House of Parliament. In these votes and documents, laid before the House, he perceived the outline of a Very important financial plan, to the greater part of which, as at present advised, he could give his hearty and entire approbation, more especially to that part of it which embraced the great improvements proposed in our commercial tariff. He perceived by the votes, that an increased duty on spirits had been already agreed to, which was to be confined to Ireland, and from that circumstance he thought there must be some foundation for
508
those reports which had generally gone abroad, that it was the intention of the Goverment, to propose a tax upon income. exempting Ireland. He, therefore, proposed to call their Lordships' immediate attention to the subject, and to-morrow he should move the following resolutions:—
"1. That a direct tax upon income ought never to be resorted to, unless in some great emergency of public affairs, when an extraordinary expenditure may become unavoidable for a time, or in some pressure upon the finances of the country which can be sustained by no other means.
"2. That such a tax ought on no account to form part of the ordinary revenue of the State, but to cease with the necessity which alone could justify its imposition; inasmuch as beside all the other objections to which it is liable, its inquisitorial operation being equally vexations, whatever sums are levied, the facility of increasing its amount according to the real or supposed exigencies of the public service, offers a constant temptation to extravagance on the part of the Government, removing the most effectual check upon improvident expenditure, and dispensing with the necessity of seeking a revenue in retrenchment.
"3. That although the actual deficiency in the revenue to meet the expenditure, amounting to about seven millions and a half in five years, and the estimated deficiency for the next year, amounting to above two millions and a half, besides probable demands arising from the state of affairs in the East, may render the temporary recourse to an income-tax necessary, after an attempt to increase by one-twentieth the duties of excise and customs had ended in obtaining a two-hundredth part only, thereby proving the impossibility of drawing any further revenue from increased taxes on consumption, while the relief which may justly be expected to commerce and to finance from lowering those taxes cannot he made immediately available; yet it behoves the Parliament, as faithful guardians of the people's rights and interests, to take care that during the temporary existence of this tax, its pressure shall be distributed in such a manner as shall make it most easily, most patiently, be borne.
"4. That, with this view, it is first of all necessary, to satisfy the people that there shall he no invidious exemptions, but that the highest personages in the state shall be permitted to have their due share of a burden which absolute necessity alone could warrant the Parliament to impose.
"5. That with the same view it is expedient to make a distinction between income arising from capital of every description and income arising from labour merely, levying a smaller proportion of the latter income than the former.

509
"6. That with the same view, it is expedient to make a distinction between income possessed by persons who have only an interest in the same for their lives, or for some lesser term, and income possessed by persons who have an interest in the capital from whence the income arises, levying a larger proportion of the latter income than of the former.
"7. That with the same view, it is expedient to make no distinction in favour of persons in the civil service of the state, or of persons receiving pensions from the state.
"8. That it is neither consistent with justice nor with sound policy, to levy a greater pro portion of tax upon larger incomes than upon smaller, and that an exemption of even the smallest incomes from the operation of the tax can only be justified upon the supposition that their owners are wholly unable to pay it.
"9. That while it is the duty of the people to bear those burdens which are necessary for supporting the credit of the country, and maintaining the security of its widely extended dominions, it is equally the duty of Parliament to afford them every, procurable relief, by en forcing the most rigorous economy in all the departments of public service; by discouraging all proceedings which may endanger the continuance of peace; and by adopting whatever measures may best conduce to the improvement of our commercial resources; and that it is in an especial manner incumbent, without any delay, to remove any income tax, whatever be imposed, as soon as it shall appear that the ordinary branches of the revenue have recovered from their temporary depression."
Their Lordships, would, to-morrow, have an opportunity of exercising their undoubted constitutional right of taking into consideration the new financial plan which appeared to be resolved upon from the votes of the other House, and they could do this with far greater advantage now, than if they waited until the other House had come to a vote on the subject, and it came before their Lordships in the shape of a money bill, which, thus presented to them, they would only have the alternative, of either rejecting, or of accepting, altogether.
The resolutions were laid on the Table, and ordered to he printed.

BANKRUPTCY.
The Lord Chancellorlaid on the Table of the House a bill for the Amendment of the Law respecting Bankruptcy. He did not then intend to enter into any details, but reserved him self until the second reading. At present he would only state that this bill in its main features was founded on the report of a commission appointed for the purpose
510
of considering the law of bankruptcy, and was, therefore, in this respect similar to the bill proposed by his noble and learned Friend who had immediately preceeded him in his office. He had employed in preparing it the same gentleman who had been employed by his noble and learned Friend, and who was one of the commissioners. The bill in most particulars corresponded with that of his noble and learned Friend, and those parts in which it differed would be subjects of fair discussion and consideration in a future stage.
Lord Broughamwished to know whether the bill contained any extension of the provisions of the bill of 1832.
The Lord Chancellor—It had been re commended by the commissioners, and suggested also by some of the principal merchants in the city, that in consequence of the increased facility of communication, the jurisdiction of the town commissioners, which by practice had been limited to a radius of forty miles round London, should be extended to a greater distance, which would be done; and as to the provisions alluded to by his noble and learned Friend, they had been found to work so well that he proposed to extend them to the whole kingdom.
Bill read a first time.

FINANCE.
Earl Fitzwilliamhaving presented petitions from Kettering and several other places, many of them from agricultural districts, against the pro posed new Corn-laws, said, he heard with great satisfaction the course which his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had proposed to take. There was much that was beneficial in the financial plan that had been proposed by her Majesty's Government, and much which was entitled to their Lordships applause. But he certainly was never more astonished in his life than when he heard it was proposed to revive, not the property tax, but the in come tax. They might call it a Property-tax if they pleased—they might seek a little temporary popularity under that pretence—but it was an Income-tax, which if a Property-tax was at least the worst form of that tax. The tax ought to have been the property tax—a tax on real and realized property, which would be a fair and just tax. As to taxing occupying tenants for the miserable amount which it would produce, it was a mere delusion. It must ultimately fall on the land, and it

511
would have been much better openly to have put on a land tax. After the notice in her Majesty's speech of the distressed state of manufactures and trade he was surprised that the Government sought to raise so large a revenue as upwards of a million from the small profits of this distressed class. The fairest and the best way, in his opinion, was to tax realised property, and not income.
Petitions laid on the Table.
Adjourned.