Lords Sitting of 30 June 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—1a. Customs' (The Tariff); British Possessions Abroad.
3a. and passed:—Dean Forest; Municipal Corporations (Ireland).
Received the Royal Assent.—Assessed Taxes; Slave Trade Abolition (Argentine Confederation); Slave Trade Suppression (Hayti); Slave Trade Treaties; Justices Jurisdiction; Law of Merchants Act Amendment; Stockton and Hartlepool Railway; Thames Haven and Dock Railway; Sudbury Improvement; Liverpool Poor; Burntisland and Granton Pier, Ferry, and Road; Carlow Road; Tadcaster and Otley Road; Bromyard Roads; Stourbridge Roads; Bathurst's Estate; Duke of Argyll's Estate; Ashton's Divorce; Rouma's Naturalization; Lesbazeille's Naturalization.
Private,1a. Reading Cemetery Foxteth Park and

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Paving; Leeds Burial Ground; Blackburn and Chorley Road.
2a. Ross and Cromarty Court House.
3a. and passed:—Birmingham Free Grammar School; Bishop of Darry's Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Islington, for the Redemption of the Metropolitan Bridge Tolls.—From Paisley, for Relief.

PUBLIC WORKS—CANADA.
In answer to the Earl of Mountcashel,
The Duke of Wellingtonstated, that it was the intention of Government to carry out the plans of Lord Sydenham in reference to public works in Canada, and that they were in communication with the present Governor-general of Canada, for the purpose of ascertaining what would be the best mode of carrying the engagements which had been made into execution, for the benefit of the province of Canada.

JUSTICES AT SESSIONS.
Lord Campbellcomplained of the irregular manner in which, as it appeared to him, the Justices' Jurisdiction Bill had been yesterday hurried through the House. That measure made some very important alterations in the jurisdiction of quarter sessions; and as the quarter sessions were now sitting nearly all over the country, the effect of its being precipitated into law in this manner would be, that all trials for offences wherein the jurisdiction was now taken from the quarter sessions would be rendered invalid, as coram non judice, and, indeed, it was questionable whether the offenders might not proceed against the chairman of quarter sessions for wrongfully putting them on their trial.
The Lord Chancellordenied that there had been any irregularity in this matter. Full notice had been given within the knowledge of the noble and learned Lord, that the suspension of the Standing Orders should be moved in the case of this bill.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that no notice had been given that their Lordships would meet at an earlier hour than usual.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that it was stated on the votes that the House would meet at half-past three, and the only business set down was this particular bill.
Matter dropped.

DISTRESS IN THE MANUFACTURING DISTRICTS.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he rose to present a petition to which he wished, for a few minutes, to call the attention of the House. The petition was from a depautation now in town, composed of
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most respectable and humane individuals connected with the manufacturing districts of the North of England, and more particularly Lancashire, Cheshire, and the West Riding of Yorkshire. Some of these individuals were largely engaged in commerce, others of them were extensively engaged in manufactures, and others were ministers of various religious persuasions—men who from their callings, their station in society, their long and ample experience in various branches of business, and also from their character and ability, were well entitled to give an opinion as to the state of facts which came before them, and also to expect that those feelings of apprehension and even alarm under which they approached that House should be shared by their Lordships. He felt the greatest pain and anxiety in presenting this; petition. He had long known many of these petitioners, and had, while a Member of the other House, been connected with the districts from which they chiefly came; and, as he knew that the petition was signed by persons connected with different classes in society, by members of different sects in religion, and by men of various political parties, he could safely assert that the petition was wholly divested of party or political feeling. It was only by a sense of the duty which they owed to themselves and their neighbours, and, above all, to the persons dependent on them for employment and the means of subsistence, that they had been induced to address that House at the present moment, which they even now thought was not too late, and ask that their Lordships would apply a remedy to evils which existed to such a fearful extent in those most important districts. He did not cherish a hope that he should be able to obtain relief for them, and had, therefore, respectably, but firmly declined to do more than present their petition. After, however, the pressing and anxious requests that had been made to him, he could not persist in his refusal. He repeated, he could not resist their urgent request after contemplating the misery which they had described to him; and he would, therefore, at once state that he should bring forward a motion on the subject on a future day. He should now only discharge his duty by presenting this petition, which was signed by the chairman on behalf of the whole deputation, and the petitioners prayed that some ade-

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quate remedy might be immediately applied to the lamentable state of things which existed in their neighbourhoods. He had intended to have given notice for Thursday next, but, as his noble Friend, the Lord President had given a notice for that day, he should postpone it for a few days longer.
Petition laid on the Table.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
The Marquess of Londonderrywas satisfied that the House must feel great sympathy at hearing the statement just made by his noble and learned Friend. He had received a letter that morning from Sunderland, complaining of great distress existing in that neighbourhood, but this distress would be greatly increased if measures which he understood were in contemplation were carried into effect. He trusted, therefore, when these measures came before the House, that he should have the assistance of his noble and learned Friend, in endeavouring to persuade the House not to legislate on this most important subject, by passing measures which must add to the distress already existing. The petition was from a large body of coal owners of Bradford, in Yorkshire, praying the House not to press legislation on a subject of such immense importance as mines and collieries, and when not sufficient time had been given to examine the voluminous reports on the Table. He objected most strongly to a measure which was before another place, which, if it passed in its present form, would entirely prevent the working of many of the most important coal mines in the country. The petitioners stated, that it appeared by the bill that it was intended to prevent children under ten years of age working in mines; they thought this was making much too great a limitation, and they prayed that the age of eight years might be substituted. They also prayed that the passing of the bill might be delayed for six months; and they stated that if it were at once carried into effect it would dissolve all engagements which now existed between themselves and their workmen. If the bill alluded to should come up from another place he should take the sense of the House on all the clauses except that relating to the exclusion of females from working in mines. He above all should oppose that clause which empowered the Secretary of State to appoint inspectors of mines.
Lord Hathertonhad a petition to pre-
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sent to their Lordships upon the same subject as that referred to by the noble Marquess. It was from a number of gentlemen, delegates from the persons assembled at a public meeting of individuals interested in mining in South Staffordshire and the surrounding districts. It was not a petition against the bill which would shortly come under their Lordships' notice, but it adverted to the imputations contained in the report of the commissioners, and to the measure founded upon that report. He believed that the' interests involved in this question were of a most serious nature, and that very little was known of the real facts of the case. The petitioners complained of the hasty manner in which the bill now before the other House of Parliament had been carried through its early stages, and stated that it was only very recently that they had heard of it. Some delegates had been sent to London, who had returned on that day for the purpose of holding a general meeting of the trade. The mode of conducting the business of mines in Staffordshire was entirely different from that of the north, and in the mines in the former district there were no less than seventy boys employed to every 100 men. The number of the inhabitants of the coal districts of the midland counties was nearly 600,000, and of these tens of thousands were employed as colliers. The commissioners in describing these people stated that they were well fed, clothed, and educated, and the life of the collier of this district was the very best amongst those of the labouring classes of this country. The day labourers almost invariably endeavoured to procure their sons to be employed as colliers, but there were never any colliers who would submit to the degradation of their sons being day labourers. He did not intend to ask their Lordships for any opinion on this bill at present, but he had said enough, he thought to show their Lordships the great importance of a careful and deliberate inquiry into the whole question. He was far from saying that the regulation of these mines, and especially in reference to the employment of boys, was not a fit subject for some statutory enactment, but when the bill came on for discussion he should draw their Lordships attention to the importance of due caution, in reference to the particular part of the country to which he had alluded.
Lord Kenyanbegged to ask the noble Lord, whether women were employed in

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the mines in the district to which he had alluded?
Lord Hathertonexpressed his obligation to the noble Lord for having reminded him of part of the subject to which he had forgotten to refer. These gentlemen were decidedly of opinion that the employment of females in mines was unnecessary; that it had an immoral and injurious tendency; and that it ought not to be permitted; and a petition had been entrusted to him, which he should hereafter present to their Lordships, praying that this part of the measure might pass into a law.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that he found that the petition which he had mentioned to their Lordships could not be received, as it was not in accordance with the rules of the House. He concurred in every sentiment expressed by the noble Lord who had just sat down; but he believed that the general subject was one in which the Government had no right to exercise any influence. He was most anxious, however, that this case should be considered on its merits—upon the report of the commissioners, and upon the counter statements which would be proved to the House before the bill came on for discussion.

DISTRESS IN PAISLEY.
Lord Kinnairdpresented a petition signed by 6,000 inhabitants of Paisley, complaining of the way in which the charitable funds raised for the relief of the poor in that town had been distributed. The petitioners complained that the management of these funds had been taken out of the hands of the relief committee, and had been placed in the hands of a Poor-law commissioner who had been sent down by the Government. It had been the custom of the relief committee to grant relief in the shape of money-tickets, which were taken at the various shops in the town; but of late, relief had been granted only in kind—in meal, bread, and potatoes. It was conjectured that the new system, so far from being productive of any benefit on the score of economy, had effected a considerable increase in the amount of the expenditure. The sum expended in one week had been 618 l. 6s., but during the management of the relief committee, although the wants of nine hundred more persons, inhabitants of the neighbouring villages, had to be supplied, the weekly cost had not exceeded 500 l. They believed that the commissioner,
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Mr. Twiselton, had an object in refusing to grant relief otherwise than in kind, for they asserted that, at a meeting of the relief committee, he had declared that it was necessary to render the position of the labourers as disagreeable as possible, in order to induce them to emigrate to other parts of the country. He would not pledge himself that this was a correct statement; for having written to ascertain how far it was warranted by the fact, he had received one answer from a member of the relief committee stating that the fact was as was alleged, while others doubted the truth of the statement. The petitioners prayed that Parliament would allow them to send the produce of their labour to those markets in which they could obtain for it the best price, and from which they could obtain in exchange the necessaries of life of which they stood so much in need. They declared that they could not stand by and witness such cruelties as were practised, which, if not counteracted, might drive the people to desperation, and endanger the peace of the country. He felt that the state of the country was much too serious to allow the wants of the people to be trifled with. The lower orders had been for some time considerably disaffected; by such conduct as the Legislature had adopted the middling classes would be led to entertain similar feelings, and the consequences to be apprehended were most serious. With regard to the petitioners, they wished these funds to be distributed by the local magistrates and ministers, who were of their own selection, and whom they considered to be better fitted for such a task than a Poor-law commissioner. They did not want cold charity to be dealt out to them in a miserable pittance of food, but they looked for consolation in acts of kindness, and for some hopes of future happiness. They had not been accustomed to ask for charity, and they only sought at their Lordships' hands the means of finding a return for their labour.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that the prayer of the petition appeared to him to be neither more nor less than that the petitioners might receive relief in money rather than in kind. [Lord Kinnaird: Partly so.] A gentleman had been first sent down to Paisley from the Commissariat Department, and a Poor-law commissioner was afterwards despatched to make further inquiries into the state of distress existing in Paisley. The funds had been for some time distributed by this gentleman; but

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since then that duty had been transferred to a body of gentlemen who were permanently established in London, called the Manufacturing Relief Committee. He believed that that committee distributed these funds according to certain fixed rules laid down for their guidance in a very satisfactory manner, and he was exceedingly concerned to find that it did not give satisfaction.
Adjourned at half-past seven.