Lords Sitting of 24 June 1842

MINUTES.
BIILS. Public— 2a. Slave Trade Abolition (Argentine Confederation)} Slave Trade Suppression
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(Hayti); Slave Trade Treaties; Salmon Fisheries (Scotland, No. 2).
Committed.—Public Houses; Testimony Perpetuating.
3a. and passed:—Copyright; Assessed Taxes Composition.
Private.—1a.Leicester Small Debts; Leeds Improvement; Jackson's Divorce.
2aDeptford Pier; Stourbridge Road.
Reported.—Liverpool Improvement; Lord Sherborne's Estate; Gibson's Estate; Tadcaster and Otley Road; Thames Haven Dock and Railway; Liverpool Poor; Earl of Devon's Estate; Cambuslang and Muirkirk Road.
3°.and passed;—Stockton and Hartlepool Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Brougham, from St. John's, Newfoundland, for a Constitution.—By the Marquess of Londonderry, from Coal Owners of Northumberland, and Durham, to Investigate the Employment of Children in Mines, and complaining of the Commissioners Report.—By the Earl of Clancarty, from Creagh, and Kilclooney, and from the Committee of the Clonfert Diocesan Society, for the Encouragement of Schools in connexion with the Church Education Society (Ireland).

NEWFOUNDLAND — CONSTITUTIONS FOR THE COLONIES.
Lord Broughamhad to present a petition from certain inhabitants of Newfoundland, complaining of a proposed change in the form of government which had for sometime existed in the colony. The parties who had confided this petition to his care were highly respectable, and as the petition was respectably signed, he could not refuse to present it. With respect to the form of government in some of our colonies, he had on a former evening, in the case of the petition from a large body of inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope, for a constitutional form of government analogous to that of Great Britain, expressed his opinion as to the inexpediency, he would say, the impolicy, of granting a representative form of government in colonies where the inhabitants were of mixed races, and where the power of one might be used to the oppression of the others. This state of things, did not, he admitted, apply to the colony of Newfoundland; but the principle would be found a general one—that where the difference of races was strongly marked, those who called for constitutions like unto that of this country would soon find that they had them only in name.

MINES AND COLLIERIES.
The Marquess of Londonderry,in presenting a petition from the owners of coal mines and others interested in the collieries of the counties of Durham and Northumberland, begged to call their Lordships' attention to the exaggerated impressions which the high colouring that had been given to the hardships of the mining population in the report of the commissioners, and by the

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discussion which had taken place elsewhere, had produced on the public mind. On the part of the petitioners and himself, he denied that such inhuman practices as had been stated prevailed, at least, in the collieries of Durham and Northumberland; and the whole was mingled with so much exaggeration, that he trusted, before their Lordships consented to legislate on the subject, they would take pains to separate the true from the false, and consider well before they passed any enactments calculated injuriously to affect the interests of this important branch of national industry. Now, who were the commissioners, and what were the feelings with which they probably entered on the inquiry? He would read to their Lordships some correspondence which he had received on the subject. [The noble Lord read a letter reflecting, in strong terms, on the character, opinions, and occupations of the commissioners who had inquired into and reported upon the condition of the persons employed in mines and collieries.] It appeared, therefore, the noble Lord continued, that these gentlemen came to this inquiry fresh from the factory commission, with all the prejudices which that commission was likely to excite, and with an expectation and desire of finding similar oppressions amongst the miners to those which they had found] amongst the manufacturing population. Their instructions were, to examine the children themselves, and the mode in which they had collected their evidence—communicating with artful boys and ignorant young girls, and putting questions in a manner which in many cases seemed to suggest the answer, was anything but a fair and impartial mode— calculated to elicit evidence on which the House could rely, and on the basis of which it should proceed to legislate. Again, he thought the manner in which the report had been accompanied by pictures of an extravagant, and disgusting, and in some cases of a scandalous and obscene character, was not such as should have been adopted in a grave publication, and was more calculated to excite the feelings than to enlighten the judgment. The noble Marquess then proceeded to vindicate the collieries of Durham and Northumberland from the charges included in the report, and from the charges brought against the coal-owners generally the other night by a right rev. Prelate.
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Indeed, the report itself would prove this, and he begged to call the attention of that right rev. Prelate to the following extracts from that report, which he thought would convince him that from these accusations the northern collieries at least were free. The noble Lord read a long extract, setting forth, amongst other things:—
"Benefit societies exist in all the collieries, the advantages of which many pitmen avail themselves of. They are of various orders; relief funds, women's boxes, Odd Fellows, United Order of Foresters, &c, all tending to the same object. In the Lambton colliery great attention has always been paid to the relief fund, and it is always in a very efficient condition. Lady Durham contributes one-sixth portion of the gross amount of subscriptions paid. It only remains to say, that in the family of a pitman they receive kindly treatment, and such generally as their sex would require. In their habits they partake much of those which prevail in the House. Cleanlines and sobriety are much more common traits than the reverse. The young are more feminine than females in a manufacturing community. In the hour of distress they display all the gentler feelings and all the alacrity to useful action which evince themselves in more refined circles; and their social feelings and affections are as strong."
Much, too, that had been said about the vice and immorality that prevailed in collieries was greatly exaggerated, especially as related to Scotland. Much had been said about education, but they must remember the necessity which existed for employing the children, and the difficulty in those districts of the country of youths getting any employment, however educated, except in the collieries. On this subject he invited their Lordships' attention to the following communication from another of his correspondents. [The noble Marquess read a communication, dated Pensher, June 14, 1842; and signed "John Buddle," describing the superior advantages of a practical education in collieries to a reading education, and stating, that at Shina Row a library had been established for the colliers, but not one ever came to it. The noble Marquess continued,] The object of the petitioners, it must be remembered, was not to prevent any interference which humanity rendered essential, but to prevent any rash and hasty alterations under the excitement of exaggerated statements which might tend to strike at the root of a branch of industry in which, in the two

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counties to which he referred, a capital exceeding 10,300,000 l. was invested. He would next call their Lordships' attention to the replies which had been given by those whom he represented to the statements in the Report of the Commissioners.* These gentlemen called on Parliament not
* THE FOLLOWING WAS THEIR STATEMENT.
Coal Trade Office, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, May 25, 1842.
"The commissioners appointed to investigate the nature of the employment of children in mines have added to the digest which they framed of the mass of evidence collected by the sub-commissioners, their opinions, expressed in such general terms, that upon a mere perusal of it the public might imagine that instances of the gross mismanagement therein detailed were to be found in some of the mines within the great northern coal field of Northumberland and Durham; whereas nothing could be more erroneous than such a conclusion.
"The contracts of hiring and serving between the coal proprietors and those employed by them in the mines within those districts are invariably written or printed, and all of them nearly in the same form—are drawn up with great care, so as to enable the magistrates to decide what the intention of the parties must have been when these agreements were signed; and, as an additional security to the workmen, generally contain the following clause:—
“‘Lastly—It is here mutually agreed that in case any dispute or difference shall arise between the said hereby contracting parties relative to any matter or thing not hereby provided, that such dispute or difference shall be submitted to the decision of two viewers of collieries; one to be appointed by the said owners, their executors, administrators, or assigns, and the other by the said hereby hired parties, of the other part; and, in case of their disagreement, to the decision of a third person, to be chosen by such two viewers; and the decision and judgment of such two viewers or umpire—as the case may happen—shall be conclusive between the parties on the matters referred to them. Provided always, and it is hereby declared, that nothing herein contained, shall extend, or be construed to extend, to alter, prejudice, lessen, or otherwise affect the legal remedies and powers which by law belong to masters and servants, in their respective relations to each other, or to magistrates having jurisdiction in case of dispute or difference between them.
"In the ventilation of these mines great expense is incurred in order to render them perfectly healthy, and a regular system of inspection is established, so as to guard, by all the practicable means that experience can suggest, against the danger of explosion. Females are not employed either above ground or below, parish apprentices are never engaged, nor is it likely that it can take place, as it could only be done in the present state of the law with the express sanction of the magistrates. The stipulated labour of the adults is not in any case excessive, nor is any power retained by the employer of making it so.
"As to the solitary confinement of children employed as trappers, that is, if applied to this district, a gross exaggeration. Under these circumstances the coal proprietors of Northumberland and Durham request the attention of the public to the following observations upon the commissioners report, which they trust may assist the Legislature in determining whether any law, founded upon just principles and of general application, can be framed, so as to afford additional protection to an industrious and deserving class of the labouring population of the kingdom."
The following were the answers and observations to the chief statements in the commissioners' report:—

1. The lowest age allowed in the Durham and Northumberland collieries, by the agents and managers, for boys to be taken into the pit, is eight or nine years. When children of a less age are taken into the pit as trappers, it is done clandestinely by their parents, and the instances are rare — this is the exception, not the rule.

to legislate on this subject until the present excitement had been allowed to subside. That prayer, he thought was as reasonable as it was fair. He must also express his hope that Parliament would not legislate on the subject until some further inquiries had been made. He thought that the

2. Very few boys under eleven or twelve are employed as drivers; up to that age they are employed as trappers.

3. No females are employed in the northern collieries. (See Mr. Leifchild's Report, page 556, article 254; and also Dr. Mitchell's, page136, article 164).

4. The work people of every description are hired and paid by the proprietors, as it is not customary to employ contractors in these collieries.

5. It is not the custom in these collieries to bind apprentices; no such practice is known.

6. The utmost attention is paid to the drainage and ventilation of the mines, and every care that the nature of the work will admit of is taken by the superintendents of the mine, and the proprietors spare no expense to secure the safety and comfort of the work people of every class.

7. As the trappers only remain in the pit during the time of drawing coals, they are rarely more than ten hours in the pit, except on the main rollyways, or horse roads, where they necessarily remain during the time the pit is working, which seldom exceeds twelve hours.

8. This is a very erroneous and exaggerated statement. The working trap doors are all placed in the principal passages, leading from the bottom of the pit to the various works, so that an interval of seldom more than five minutes, but generally much less, passes without some person passing through his door, and having a word with the trapper. Neither is the trapper deprived of light by any means general, as the stationary lights (lamps) on the roily and tram ways are frequently placed near to the trapper's seat,

9. The trapper's employment is neither cheerless, dull, nor stupifying; nor is he, nor can he be, kept in solitude and darkness all the time he is in the pit. (See the former answer.) The trapper is generally cheerful and contented, and to be found, like other children of his age, occupied with some childish amusement—as cutting sticks, making models of windmills, waggons, &c., and frequently in drawing figures with chalk on his door, modelling figures of men and animals in clay, &c. Where double doors are placed, there are always two trappers together.

10. Boys of six years of age are never employed as putters; they must first go through the intermediate stage of trapper and driver,

11. This observation does not apply to this district, in which females are never employed,

12. Does not apply to the Durham and Northumberland collieries.

13. Answered by No. 7.

14. Night working, or double shift;, is now very rare. It is believed that no case of it exists at present in the Durham and Northumberland collieries,

15. The labour of the day is by no means incessant and continuous. A pause or halt in the putter's work almost invariably takes place every time he brings his tram to the crane or platform, where his single load is attached to the horse train, to be taken to the bottom of the pit. It is during those intervals that the putter rests and eats his provisions.

16. It is only in a few collieries that this time is allowed for meals. As to the complaints of fatigue, the same may be made of every other description of bodily labour. Let any one who is accustomed to see those boys returning home from their day's work, say whether their gambols and playfulness do not prove anything rather than being overworked and jaded with their employment.

17. This statement is perfectly erroneous. Persons, in authority, as part of their duty, are in the habit of interfering to prevent the "ill usage of younger children by their elder companions." Unless they did so, and exerted that authority to suppress the usage alluded to, the discipline of the pit's crew could not be preserved, and. of course, it

parochial clergy, who had he believed instructed the right rev. Prelate who brought forward this report (the Bishop of Norwich), would do more good if they examined into the state of the schools and called at the houses of these people. He hoped that the right rev. Prelate would look through the whole of the report. He was sorry to see a statement that had been made elsewhere; but he would say for the coal owners of the north, that there was no set of men in the world who did more justice in every way to those who were employed by them. He therefore must repudiate the accusations which had been brought against them. All this required much more consideration than the enthusiastic advocates for the education of the labouring classes in the heat of their zeal were disposed, or even capable of giving to the subject. They did not seem to be aware that our fields could not be ploughed, our mines wrought, nor our ships sailed by the vise of the pen alone. The national community might be compared to a great machine or manufactory, all its wheels
would be impossible to conduct the work with regularity, and the whole would fall into confusion.
18. It rarely happens that the boys, especially the trappers, are employed more than four or five days in the week; and from the superabundance of trappers at most collieries, they scarcely average three days, so that abundant opportunity is left for healthy recreation and education.
19. This is essentially correct. Regular surgeons are attached to each colliery, and in cases of accident, surgical aid is afforded gratis, and the patients are paid subsistence money during the rime they are off work.—(See Mr. Leif-child's Report, 50, p. 5 art. 237.)
20. This allegation does not apply to the seasale collieries in Durham and Northumberland, as every department of the mining operations, particularly as regards the machinery, is placed under the superintendence of competent officers. The underground establishment consists of overmen, with their deputies, to superintend the working operations, and their first duty every morning is to visit all the working places before the men are permitted to go in, to see that they are safe or unsafe to be entered with naked lighted candles; also to place props for the support of the roof, brattice the boards, and see that all the trap-doors, &c, are right. The wastemen to keep the air courses right, and the roily-way men to attend to the roily or railways. In ascending the shaft, the number of persons to be drawn up at once is regulated by the onsetter, he being always present, and is made responsible. In descending, the duty of regulating the number devolves on the banksman, who, like the onsetter, is made responsible; and good and sufficient ropes for the men to ride on are always provided. It is the banksman's duty to prevent any person in a state of intoxication going down the pits. Above ground, the machinery is placed under the charge of a chief engineer, who has as many assistants as may be requisite to keep all the machinery in good and sufficient repair.
21. The working of the trap-doors is generally entrusted to boys, but properly constructed trap-doors close themselves, so that the trapper's duty is merely to pull them open with his string, and unless they are wilfully propped open, they must, from their construction, like a well hung gate, shut themselves. But maimed old men are generally made the keepers of important trap-doors, and it is the duty of the overman, at the close of each day's work, to
and parts must be duly proportioned to enable it to move smoothly, and the requisite proportion of education would always be supplied without making all this stir and effort about it. If it should preponderate, the equilibrium of society would be destroyed. The noble Marquess concluded by moving that the petition do lie on the Table.
The Bishop of Norwichwould postpone his observations in reply to the noble Marquess until the bill was before their Lordships.
Petition laid on the Table.

CHURCH OF SCOTAND.
The Earl of Belhavenwished to put a question to the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) relative to the Church of Scotland. The situation in which that Church was placed, the unfortunate divisions which had arisen principally amongst the clergy, and the excitement which prevailed, he thought every well-wisher to that Church must be desirous to see allayed. His own impression was strongly this—if the Government
see that all the lights are extinguished, that the boys are all out of the workings, and that the trap-doors are properly secured.
22. This observation is utterly incorrect. Nothing is omitted on account of the expense that is likely to guard against accidents, or secure the safety or comfort of the workpeople in the Northumberland and Durham collieries.
23. The greatest care is used in examining the ropes: and the engine-men are always approved of and appointed by the chief engineer.
24. In the above districts the children are well fed and well clad.
25 and 26. These are not correct to the extent stated. It is true that the pitmen are not a corpulent race, but few men possess such firmness of muscle, which is acquired in consequence of the regularity of their labour in a warm and uniform atmosphere. No more active and athletic set of young men is to be found than amongst the putters of these collieries, and the long pedestrian journies performed by the pitmen during their sticks afford sufficient proof that there is no physical organic defect in their limbs. Their bodily health and physical constitution may best be judged of from the reports of the surgeons as to the comparative ease with which they recover from wounds and other injuries.—(See the annexed report of Mr. Hard-castle.)
27. This statement is incorrect as to the effect of the employment and changes of temperature upon the age of pitmen.—(Vide Mr. Leifchild's Report, page 525, paragraphs 77 and 79.)
To the petition was annexed a report from Mr. Hard-castle, a member of the College of Surgeons in London, who stated, that employment in mines was not detrimental to health. He had obtained a return of the ages of 720 persons employed in certain collieries, and they were—

Above 80

4

percent.

0½

70

20

—

3

60

55

—

7½

50

107

—

15

21

534

—

74

720

100

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would declare its intention to interfere for the purpose of endeavouring to effect a settlement of this question, it would be ' the best, if not the only means to put and end to that state of irritation and excitement which at present existed. The question which he now begged to put to the noble Duke was, whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to take this question into its early and serious consideration, with a view of endeavouring to bring it to a satisfactory settlement.
The Duke of Wellington: I must confine myself to giving a simple answer to the question of the noble Lord. The Government has had the subject under its consideration, and it has endeavoured to discover the means of effecting a settlement of this important and distressing question. We have abandoned that intention in consequence of finding that parties are not prepared to receive with satisfaction the measure which the Government had under its consideration. We are aware of the difficulties of the case. We see them strongly; and I must say that we have the same respect for the Church of
[If the age at which children were admitted into mines was made higher, a very great evil would be occasioned. The coalowners of Yorkshire had issued a document on this subject, to portions of which he would beg their Lordships' attention.]"
"With respect to the age at which males should be admitted into mines, the members of this association have unanimously agreed to fix it at eight years, and they appeal to the testimony of numerous witnesses in the commissioners' report to prove that colliers seldom attain the requisite proficiency in their trade unless they enter the pits when young. In the thin coal mines it is more especially requisite that boys, varying in age from eight to fourteen, should be employed; as the underground roads could not be made of sufficient height for taller persons without incurring an outlay so great as to render the working of such mines unprofitable. At the present moment, a majority of the coal mines of this district are working not more than three or four days in each week, and the population are consequently in a state of great poverty and distress. What, then, would be the condition of a miner's family, if deprived by the Legislature of the weekly wages produced by the industry of the boys, in addition to those earned by the females? The coal owners fully admit the vast importance of moral and intellectual training as a means of improving the social condition of the population, and they would be rejoiced to see it more general; but they cannot conceive anything more injurious to the rising generation than the period of youth spent in utter idleness. The whole of a collier's family under thirteen years old will, if turned out of the pits, be entirely dependent on the scanty earnings of the parent for food, clothing, and instruction. Those earnings alone are barely sufficient to procure even food for their children, without mentioning wearing apparel and education. What then, will be the probable condition of the children under thirteen years of age after the passing of Lord Ashley's Bill in its present form? Prevented by the Legislature from working in the mines, and unable to pay for daily instruction, or to avail themselves of Sunday-school education from the want of decent clothing, and equally unable, in the present superabundant supply of labourers, to procure employment in other branches of trade, they would
Scotland which is professed by the noble Lord himself, and the same feeling of the benefit which it has conferred on the people of that country, and of its being eminently calculated to continue that benefit, and to ensure their happinesss. But the question is a very simple one. The Government has given, is giving, and will continue to give, its earnest attention to the subject with a view to discover the means of effecting a settlement at the earliest period possible.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that as he was connected with that part of Scotland in which these clergymen had been suspended, he must say he thought it was very unjust that they should be suspended for merely obeying the law of the land. He must also speak to the great respectability of those individuals. As he understood that the Assembly intended to present a petition, a sort of declaration of rights, to the Queen, he wished to ask the noble Duke whether, after it was presented, he would have any objection to lay it on the Table of the House. He did not wish to have an answer at present. He
grow up in a state of physical and moral destitution, without any regular occupation, without that sufficiency of food and clothing which their own earnings formerly provided for them, without religious culture, without secular knowledge, and without those habits of steady industry so desirable in every rank, and so essentially necessary to the well-being of the working class. The boy must in this, as in every other case, be educated for the man; and surely legislative prevention of learning a trade is not desirable, either in a moral or an economical point of view. Some of the best and most careful engine-men in this district are more than fifty years of age; and the coal-owners think, that to discharge a skilful and faithful servant from the work for which, from long habit and experience, he is peculiarly fitted, simply because he is more than fifty years old, would be an act of imprudence and injustice, which nothing but a compulsory law would ever cause them to commit. The interference of Parliament in this case, therefore, is, they conceive, not only unnecessary, but unjust. If, however, legislation is inevitable, it would be more reasonable to restrict the age at which engine-men and banksmen may begin to work to fourteen years, to allow females of a similar age to assist the banksman, and leave unrestricted and unlimited the age at which they shall cease. The coal-owners cannot omit this opportunity of referring to the report and conclusions of the commissioners for proof that there is little in the trade of mining injurious to the health; and much respectable evidence may also be quoted to show that the moral condition of the miners is superior to that of the manufacturing operatives, and not at all inferior to that of the agricultural labourers. The mineral proprietors and workmen have undeservedly incurred great public odium from the onesided and ex parte statements, and extracts from the reports, issued by the press—showing only the dark side of the picture; and they entreat Members of Parliament not to legislate hastily on this subject, but to allow time for the whole of the evidence to be digested, and for the excitement, at present prevailing in the public mind, to be allayed by counter statements of the parties thus sought to be maligned and injured."
would say nothing of the General Assembly except that its conduct appeared to be most extraordinary, and he could not understand how it could allow itself to make use of such strong language as it had done, and to act in such a manner against men whose only fault was differing with it in opinion.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he thought it would be unbecoming on the part of their Lordships to enter upon this discussion at present, when the appeal in this matter from the Court of Session would soon come before the House in its judicial capacity.
Subject dropped.

EDUCATION (IRELAND.
The Earl of Clancarty:My Lords, I have two petitions to present to your Lordships upon the subject of Education in Ireland, similar in substance and in prayer to those which have, in such great numbers, been laid upon the Table of the House since the commencement of the present Session of Parliament, that is to say, they are condemnatory of the present system of national education, and in favour of those schools which have been established by the Church Education Society in that country. My Lords, the petitions I have the honour of laying before your Lordships are, one from the Protestant inhabitants of the town of Ballinasloe, the other is from the committee of the Clonfert Diocesan Church Education Society. To the latter of these petitions, my Lords, is affixed the signature of the excellent and respectable Prelate who presides over that diocese, I mean the Lord Bishop of Killaloe. And as they are each of them subscribed by persons the sincerity of whose interest in promoting the scriptural education of the Irish poor, is further evinced by their active individual exertions and pecuniary contributions in that behalf. I have, therefore, the greater pleasure in recommending their prayer to your Lordships' favourable Consideration, and shall avail myself of the present occasion to say a few words expressive of my perfect concurrence in the opinions and wishes of the petitioners upon the very important subject on which they have addressed your Lordships. I agree, my Lords, with the petitioners in their condemnation of the present system of national education, because it appears to me to be founded upon a principle of
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neutrality upon the subject of religion that must of necessity tend rather to impair than to elevate the standard of religious belief in Ireland—because it practically excludes the clergy of the Established Church from their due share in directing and superintending the education provided by the State for the people, among whom they are professionally placed,—and because, as regards the great aim and intention of the institution itself—I mean the effecting an united education of the Irish people of all religious persuasions in the same schools— the experiment has signally failed. And this, my Lords, is a fact which, considering the acknowledged talents of the members of the Board of Education—considering the great zeal with which, as it appears from their reports which have from time to time been laid upon the Table of the House, they have given themselves to the discharge of their duties, and the large sums of public money that have been annually placed at their disposal, more, in fact, than Parliament ever voted in previous years for the purposes of education in Ireland—considering also the length of time, now above ten years, that the system has been in operation with the unvarying and undivided support of successive Governments—I say, my Lords, that considering all these favourable circumstances, the fact that the experiment has, nevertheless, failed of accomplishing the object—the benevolent intentions of the noble Lord with whom it is supposed to have originated should be taken as conclusive against its being longer persevered in—conclusive of its unsuitableness to the circumstances and character of the people for whom it was designed—and, perhaps, also conclusive of the impossibility of framing any system likely to be successful for the united education of a people so divided in religious belief as the Irish; but, certainly, of the impracticability of a system such as the present, which, for the reasons set forth by these petitioners, neither has nor can have the support and co-operation of the hierarchy and clergy of the Established Church. Agreeing, -as I do, my Lords, with the petitioners in the approbation they express of the schools in connection with the Church Education Society, I cordially join them in their prayer—
"That your Lordships would devise such means as to your Lordships' wisdom shall seem fit, for the encouragement and as-

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sistance of schools in connection with that society."
Allow me to observe, my Lords, that the principle upon which the education given in these schools is based, is one which ought never to have been lost sight of in framing a system of national education for any part of the United Kingdom, I mean the principle of combining the dissemination of religious knowledge, scriptural and doctrinal, with the best secular instruction suitable to the wants and circumstances of the population. Such, my Lords, has been the object of the Church Education Society in the system of instruction they have provided for the Irish poor. An object in which, to the extent that the limited funds of a society—dependant solely upon voluntary contributions—have enabled them to go, in founding schools, they have been eminently successful. And it is a circumstance well deserving of the favourable consideration of your Lordships, that these schools —though hitherto unsupported by any public grant of money, and though practically opposed by the Government of the country—have nevertheless gone on year after year increasing in number and efficiency; that they have given satisfaction to the Protestants of the parishes in which they have been instituted (a fact that is abundantly attested by the petitions that have been presented upon the subject); that they are, as was Stated to your Lordships on last evening by a most rev. Prelate, largely resorted to by the Roman Catholic population; and that, although under the immediate superintendence and control of the parochial clergy of the Established Church, the schools in connection with this society do in fact realise the design of united education of the Irish people, Protestant and Roman Catholic, in the same schools, far more effectually than do the schools under the Marlborough Street board, which were founded for that express purpose. It is not my intention, my Lords, at the present time, to enter at large into the question of Irish education. It is a subject which I trust will, ere long, be brought regularly under your Lordships' consideration, by those with whom the duty and responsibility properly rests of advising your Lordships upon a matter of such moment to the welfare and happiness of that part of the United Kingdom. I much regret that her Majesty's Ministers did not deem it a subject of sufficient im-
550
portance to engage their earliest attention after their accession to office; but I do not agree with those who infer from the answers given by the noble Duke in this House, and by my noble Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in the other House of Parliament, to questions put to them upon the subject, that it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to leave the question of education in its present very unsatisfactory state. I rather place reliance upon the recorded sentiments of the leading Members of the present Administration, while they yet occupied the Opposition benches in the two Houses of Parliament— that being now in power they will give their serious attention to the subject with a view to making such alterations as are called for by justice, sound policy, and a consideration of the future welfare and character of the Irish people. And I feel assured that her Majesty's Government, will act in this matter regardless of all party interests, but mindful of the support and encouragement due to the religion of the State, and at the same time with that consideration which is justly due to the interests of those who conscientiously dissent from the doctrines of the Established Church.
Petition laid on the Table.
House adjourned.