Lords Sitting of 22 July 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—la. South Australia; Exchequer Bills Preparation; Custom's Duties Amendment; Bankruptcy Law Improvement; Debtor and Creditor (Lord Brougham's Bills).
Committed.— Bankruptcy Law Amendment; County Courts (Lord Chancellor's Bills.)
3a. and passed:—Fisheries Treaties Acts Continuance; Slave Trade Treaties Continuance; Turnpike Acts; Militia Ballots Suspension.
PETITION PRESENTED. By Lord Wharncliffe, from Benjamin Ellison, for compensation, should the Mines and Collieries Bill become Law.

STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, he had to move for certain returns relative to the importation of corn, to which he understood there would be no objection, and he would take that opportunity of asking the noble Lord the President of the Council to state what were the grounds of the hope which he expressed on a former evening that trade would improve. He was anxious to hear those grounds, not from any impertinent curiosity, but from the desire he felt to hear of anything which would give a prospect of any improvement in the condition of the country. That distress prevailed to a great and alarming extent was admitted on all hands. Indeed, almost every person who spoke on the subject in that or the other House, or in the country, had but one opinion on it—all, all admitted the fact; but with some there was a " nevertheless," as if we were to get on to our former prosperous condition as a matter of course. Now, he did not find fault with those who were sanguine enough to entertain such hopes; but when they were expressed in high and authoritative quarters, he should like to hear the grounds on which they rested. For his own part, everything he saw or heard, or read in the public papers, would lead him to come to a conclusion very different from those who looked to the future with such hopes. One account mentioned in the other House stated that there were in Paisley not less than 1,700 persons moving about in a state of utter destitution. Another account given by a gentleman from Nottingham stated, that large numbers of unemployed
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persons were roaming about the country in bands asking for alms, and, though they did no more than ask for relief, yet it was in such a significant manner that few persons considered it safe to refuse them. He had also heard that several of the fire insurance-offices had sent directions to their agents through the country, enjoining on them not to give insurances upon agricultural produce until they had made the most searching inquiries into the state of feeling in the particular district, and also, as to whether the person whose produce was to be insured was popular with his workmen. In this alarming state of the country, it would he quite satisfactory to hear from the noble Lord opposite the grounds on which on a former evening he had expressed a hope that trade would get better. The noble Lord then read the motion. It was for returns showing the actual quantity of wheat imported and admitted into bond in each week, from the passing of the late act relating to the importation of foreign corn to the latest period to which the same could be made out, distinguishing the price and the rate of duty in each week.
Lord Wharncliffethought it hard to be called upon in this way, and as it were taken by surprise, to state the grounds on which he had given an opinion on a former evening. One ground of his hope was in the measures which had been adopted by Government, and which he had no doubt, if allowed to work fairly, would be greatly beneficial to the country. That, at least, was his own opinion, and he saw in it good ground of hope for improvement. The Corn-law, as it had passed the Legislature, was calculated to be beneficial, if fairly tried; but it would be impossible that trade could he healthy while the Corn-law agitation was carried on through the country, and while it was made to seem uncertain whether Government was firm and strong enough to maintain the Corn-law in its present state. He would again contend that if that law was allowed to work fairly it would do much good. The working of the new tariff also, in his opinion, afforded good ground for hope of improvement.
The Marquess of Clanricardewished to know what the noble Lord meant when he said the late Corn-law would do much good? That character of the act would, he fancied, be differently interpreted by

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different parties, for it was well known that some voted for the late act in the belief that it would raise the price of corn, while others supported it in the hope that it would lower that price.
Lord Wharnclifesaid, that his notion of the Corn-law was this, and his meaning in using the term to which the noble Marquess referred was the same, that it would have the effect of keeping prices steady, and of enabling trade to be carried on with fair play, which would be the case if the corn agitation ceased.
The Earl of Radnorwas afraid, that if trade had not fair play until the Corn-law agitation was at an end, it would never have it until the cause of that agitation was removed.

LAW OF DEBTOR, AND CREDITOR.
Lord Broughamsaid, he had to lay on their Lordships' Table two bills which had for their object to improve the law of bankruptcy in certain cases, to facilitate arrangements between debtor and creditor, and to alter materially the law of imprisonment for debt. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Cottenham) had given notice of his intention to introduce a bill next Session for the total abolition of imprisonment for debt. lie was sorry that his noble and learned Friend had not laid his bill on the Table in the present Session, as their Lordships would have had the advantage of considering it during the recess. The present bills did not either of them go the length of total abolition of imprisonment for debt, but they tended greatly to relax the operation of the law, and to make it work that abolition completely. In the reforms that had been already made iii the law the principle of imprisonment had also been much relaxed, while additional facilities were given to the creditor to recover his property from his debtor. By the first of the bills which he now presented, great facilities were also given for arrangements between debtor and creditor, with the view just mentioned, and by the second protection from arrest to the person of the debtor was effectually afforded. It left the general law of debtor and creditor just as it was, but a power of protecting the debtor was conferred on the Bankrupt commissioners; while the debtor was enabled to enter into a composition with his creditors, with the sanc-
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tion of the commissioners. The first of the bills was drawn up with great skill and practical knowledge. He said this very willingly, he had had nothing to do with framing it. One of the learned commissioner (Commissioner Fonblanque) bad devoted his attention to the task with much success. The second bill which he (Lord Brougham) had prepared, had the same object, but it went further. It relaxed the law of imprisonment for debt, hut on a principle different from that of the other bills. If he could persuade their Lordships to pass a measure for the total and immediate abolition of imprisonment for debt, with, of course, due safeguards in cases of fraud, the present bill would tot be so necessary, but it went on the supposition that a total and immediate abolition of imprisonment for debt could not be obtained. It therefore proposed greatly to relax the law which it did not abolish, and to preserve the law only for the purpose of working that abolition less directly. It enabled every debtor to petition a court of bankruptcy, due notice being given to three-fourths of his creditors in number and value, and there to submit himself to examination as to his debts and mode of contracting them, his assets, and the debts due to him. He might produce witnesses, and the creditors might have the whole of his affairs undergo the most strict investigation. At this hearing any of his creditors might oppose the debtor's discharge; but, unless the court saw good cause shown to the contrary, it had the power, and of course the duty, to protect the debtor's person. This protection might bed extended from time to timer, till the final examination, and then a perpetual protection be given. But this protection might at any subsequent time be withdrawn, upon proof, being made to the Court's satisfaction that property had been fraudulently concealed, or any other act done which would have justified the refusal of protection. This would be the means of securing bonâ fide statements as to debts and dispositions of property. He thought the provisions of the two bills would be most useful in their operation, and he now moved that they be read a first time.
Lord Cottenhamhoped the bills were not brought in on the assumption of the fact that their Lordships were hostile to,

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and would not pass, the larger measure of relief in the bill of which he had given notice, for the total abolition of imprisonment for debt. He saw no reason to despair of being able to induce their Lordships to go with the whole principle of his bill.
Lord Broughamhad no doubt, that this second bill would facilitate the total abolition, if it should be found not to affect that object of itself, which he trusted it would.
Bills read a first time.

MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL.
Lord Wharncliffepresented a petition from Benjamin Ellison, praying for compensation in case the Mines and Collieries Bill should pass.
The Marquess of Normanbywould take advantage of that opportunity to defend the appointments of the sub-commissioners, which had been impugned. He thought that it was proper that the precedent set with respect to the New Poor-law should be followed, and the evidence not taken on oath. As to the evidence he believed it had been taken fairly. As to the bill, he said, in its present state, he believed it would give satisfaction, and hoped soon to see it receive the sanction of their Lordships.
The Marquess of Londonderrycomplained of the digest of the report; it was very unfair; and as to the appointments of the sub-commissioners, he conceived them to be very improper.
Lord Campbellsaid, the petition being for a grant of money, it could not be received without the sanction of the Crown. As to the objection that the evidence taken by the commissioners not being on oath, it was a doubtful point whether under a commission issued by the Crown, parties could be examined on oath.
The Marquess of Normanbydeclared that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Londonderry) had not given an accurate description of the digest.
Adjourned.